IT professionals better off in SA

[icyrus]

If you think a Swiss Bank is going to go public and say "Hey, we've got a BlueGene/P and we've loaded GLOSS 5 and SYBASE 12" then you're crazy.

Outside of the USA, Europe STILL has the next largest number of computing power, for want of a better description using your own source. So you have your answer already.

We all have an opinion based on our own experiences. We clearly come from different worlds. I've not challenged much of your own skills or claims so I don't understand your approach at all. You either accept some level of what people say or you don't. I've already offered to give Icyrus some details offline for privacy reasons, but he's refused. Conclude what you like from that - the offer is now closed. Note that he's not related ANY of his own experience here either.

I really couldn't care about your personal details merely the reasons for your opinions, which you still have not given. Conclude what you like from that.

As to the system you worked on, I don't see how revealing a few minor technical details would somehow be a privacy risk, but that's your call.

In the end is hardly worth the effort engaging with a person who ducks and dives at every turn to avoid a simple justification that would have taken 2 lines or less.

 

[Sackboy]

As you will rightly see if you read the thread I have made no claims, unlike you.

I have merely asked for justifications of your claims. Should be easy to do, given your vast experience then? Lets see how it turns out, although I have my suspicions.

Again - I've tried to discuss this via PRIVATE MESSAGE, to state your qualifications and experience but you've refused so I don't know what else you expect me to do?

 

[Sackboy]

And, unlike the commercial O/S'es, where the slimy corporates are tightfisted, and limit the number of programmers, Linux has millions of developers, who can help fix problems in no-time, without a call being placed in a first-come-first-serve-except-for-emergency queue and waiting there forever!

Sounds like you have issues with support now. Where did you experience this wait-forever support?

 

[icyrus]

Again - I've tried to discuss this via PRIVATE MESSAGE, to state your qualifications and experience but you've refused so I don't know what else you expect me to do?

What relevance are my qualifications?

As a recap, your statement:

I can't answer for them or validate the statement that they ALL RUN LINUX. It wouldn't be my first choice for any "SUPER COMPUTER", but then neither would Windows, again for other reasons. LINUX is great for small businesses who know what they're doing and hobbyists, but not for anything critical.

My question:

Do you have any possible data/reasoning to back that up with?

Seems reasonable enough. Heck, I'll even get the response started for you in case you're having difficulty getting going:

"Linux is not great for anything critical because..."


It really could not be more simple.

 

[Sackboy]

Seems reasonable enough. Heck, I'll even get the response started for you in case you're having difficulty getting going:

"Linux is not great for anything critical because..."


It really could not be more simple.

In my VAST experience rolleyes you get more out of people if you are polite and agreeable <-TIP FOR THE DAY.

I've already given part of my reasoning above. In your unnatural rush to try and catch me out, for reasons beyond my understanding, you're not reading what goes out. Just to reiterate for the dyslexics and ADD members, I think LINUX tends to be in a permanent state of flux if you compare it to UNIX. In the effort to try and give it the look and feel of Windows, they tend to break it a lot. I've seen this with just about every popular free distro I've tried. It's the same story. Load it, check it, somethings broken, somethings fixed. A similar state used to exist with Windows, especially Win2000, and my peers who were looking after the Windows side spent half their day (and more) on the MS GOLD members site looking or asking for fixes. Can we say the same for UNIX - hardly. Thus for critical systems, these would not be ideal.

Happy now?

 

[w1z4rd]

Lol this has being so entertaining. I gathered the measure of this oke ages back, but its been funny watching the twists, the ducks the logical side flips.

I think LINUX tends to be in a permanent state of flux if you compare it to UNIX

Thank goodness its in "flux" thats the sign of a healthy development community.

In the effort to try and give it the look and feel of Windows, they tend to break it a lot.

Examples or its not true. Please give real examples that we can quantify, your opinion requires citation before any of us will believe that.

I also dont think you know the difference between the desktop and server environments. None of my servers come with a desktop... so how would desktop package development effect my production servers?

Answer is they wont.. except bonus features I might pick up from dev in the desktop environment.

I've seen this with just about every popular free distro I've tried.

A bad worker blames his tools.

 

[icyrus]

In my VAST experience rolleyes you get more out of people if you are polite and agreeable <-TIP FOR THE DAY.

Thanks for that.

I've already given part of my reasoning above. In your unnatural rush to try and catch me out, for reasons beyond my understanding, you're not reading what goes out.

I assure you that the desire to catch you out exists only in your mind.

Just to reiterate for the dyslexics and ADD members, I think LINUX tends to be in a permanent state of flux if you compare it to UNIX.

Could you please be more specific?

In the effort to try and give it the look and feel of Windows, they tend to break it a lot. I've seen this with just about every popular free distro I've tried. It's the same story. Load it, check it, somethings broken, somethings fixed. A similar state used to exist with Windows, especially Win2000, and my peers who were looking after the Windows side spent half their day (and more) on the MS GOLD members site looking or asking for fixes. Can we say the same for UNIX - hardly. Thus for critical systems, these would not be ideal.

Ah, hold on a second. Are you talking about desktop deployments? I thought we were talking about server deployments.

In any case, it might be interesting to see what you found to be broken?

Happy now?

It is a start to be sure.

 

[Sackboy]

Lol this has being so entertaining. I gathered the measure of this oke ages back, but its been funny watching the twists, the ducks the logical side flips.

Thank goodness its in "flux" thats the sign of a healthy development community.


Examples or its not true. Please give real examples that we can quantify, your opinion requires citation before any of us will believe that.

I also dont think you know the difference between the desktop and server environments. None of my servers come with a desktop... so how would desktop package development effect my production servers?

Answer is they wont.. except bonus features I might pick up from dev in the desktop environment.



A bad worker blames his tools.

I've, fortunately, only known you for a short time, though you do seem familiar in an itchy sort of way.

I'm still here, answering as best as I can. I'm not here to 'entertain' in this way. I've also not ducked anything. In fact I've offered to discuss privately in more detail with Icyrus, but of course, when called, he FOLDED.

I don't believe you're here to further the topic, but rather to perpetuate your ad homina. It stifles a conversation continually to ask for proof of things not directly relevant. Take my opinion or don't. It's up to you.

I've no idea why you now raise some waffle about "desktop package development" either. LOL

My final point is that this discussion stopped being interesting, informative, let alone entertaining. It must be pretty dull also for the other 50 or so spectators. If you feel inadequate, then just stay out of the discussion. Comparing size was never necessary for me. I'm a carry a big stick, speak softly sort of person. I've nothing to prove. Guys, to me, you are small sized fish in a small bowl. I'd much rather swim in the big stream with the big boys. Phew, we're finally back on topic.
Adios.

 

[w1z4rd]

I've no idea why you now raise some waffle about "desktop package development" either. LOL

Enough said. The dude is clueless about linux.

 

[KirPlunk]

A LOT of internationally used applications are designed and developed in SA...
Things are gonna be kick ass in ZA in a few years...

Think next Singapore

 

[vodacom3g]

If you think a Swiss Bank is going to go public and say "Hey, we've got a BlueGene/P and we've loaded GLOSS 5 and SYBASE 12" then you're crazy.

Why? What's so competitive about it? Banks don't sell MIPS.

Outside of the USA, Europe STILL has the next largest number of computing power, for want of a better description using your own source. So you have your answer already.

We all knew that. It was discussed on this forum a few days ago. That's not the point being discussed here.

The question to you was rather; where is this "biggest, fastest computer in the whole of Europe" that you refer to? And when?

We all have an opinion based on our own experiences. We clearly come from different worlds. I've not challenged much of your own skills or claims so I don't understand your approach at all. You either accept some level of what people say or you don't. I've already offered to give Icyrus some details offline for privacy reasons, but he's refused. Conclude what you like from that - the offer is now closed. Note that he's not related ANY of his own experience here either.

Opinions are great, we all have them. But if you make a statement, you should be able to back it up with something more substantial than some verbal ducking and diving.

Statements like:

1) SA IT space is second-rate.
2) There's no Unix in SA.
3) Linux is an inferior OS.

The problem with on-line forums is that people can only read what you write (and how you wrote it). So if you make a strong statement and then refuse to back it up with some logic, it appears that you don't really know what you're talking about, don't you agree? Especially if you keep avoiding simple, direct questions.

Right now, your posts created an impression that here's this guy who tried to get a job in SA, failed, went to work in Europe somewhere, probably in a desktop environment and there was this big building next door with the baddest, biggest computer he's ever seen.

And he's probably a bit p!ssed that he could net get a job locally so now he's knocking the local industry.

I'm not saying the above is factually correct at all (probably isn't), merely that your posts conveyed this perception up to now.

So either justify the statements you made or if your justification revolves around this super-duper system you worked on, give some more info on it.

But on this forum, (you'll quickly learn) using "because I say so" as justification is not going to fly.

 

[chubster]

I just have a problem with the so called "IT" industry in general, now if it in Europe or in ZA. You have to know someone, or you lie through your teeth and get away with it. They that interview you are usually non-programmers, financial/agencies/Human Resource/Project Managers that used to be COBOL programmers. Eish I hate cobol, but ja. Now a cobol programmer interviews a C programmer. What is the result? Both dislike each other. Now my conclusion is that those that are trained is not interviewed by the correct person interviewing. The same goes for what does the company need because they don't care what you know, it is what they want. Fair enough.

The people that are scoring from IT, are the non science people. IT is purely the business guys. The guys knowing how to work with people, doing the fancy paperwork and throwing acronyms around with their "Business Analysis". They then go back to the backyard, you the programmer must then do the actual work, but get paid less anyway. The programmers are being exploited, making them get to do the max with less amount of time and money thrown at them. That is why I back "Sackboy".

The guys that got rich out of IT, wasn't the actual guys that got to do the work. Look at Bill Gates, he is a lawyer, drop out. Mark Shuttleworth, did IT BCom (he is just a bit better than Billy), dropped out. The guys from Oracle, SAP, they all know how to strike deals. Just like the car industry, the computer industry has some how fudged what was suppose to create a utopia, but instead we got a few people getting rich like hell out of exploiting certain conditions.

Capitalism thrives, Communism tells you what to do. Socialism, *sigh* who cares, they all fail.

Another problem is, South Africa claims middle class family earns R7000 'n month. Now tell me how does a middle class family buy a house? That would mean we are all rich, instead none of our aged 20 - 30 guys can afford to buy a normal 1000m2 plot with a house on it. We either all own/rent a birdcage some where in the city and have a fancy car. As soon as you start thinking of marriage, everything falls through the cracks and you end up owning the bank a crap load of money and then you realize you can't make the payments. This has got nothing to Europe/US going bonkers. We as a country fail. We are all poor and being exploited some how. That is the reality check we are all facing. Don't come back chat me if you're 40+, you guys are far better off when house prices were cheaper.

 

[Sackboy]

Why? What's so competitive about it? Banks don't sell MIPS.


We all knew that. It was discussed on this forum a few days ago. That's not the point being discussed here.

The question to you was rather; where is this "biggest, fastest computer in the whole of Europe" that you refer to? And when?


Opinions are great, we all have them. But if you make a statement, you should be able to back it up with something more substantial than some verbal ducking and diving.

Statements like:

1) SA IT space is second-rate.
2) There's no Unix in SA.
3) Linux is an inferior OS.

The problem with on-line forums is that people can only read what you write (and how you wrote it). So if you make a strong statement and then refuse to back it up with some logic, it appears that you don't really know what you're talking about, don't you agree? Especially if you keep avoiding simple, direct questions.

Right now, your posts created an impression that here's this guy who tried to get a job in SA, failed, went to work in Europe somewhere, probably in a desktop environment and there was this big building next door with the baddest, biggest computer he's ever seen.

And he's probably a bit p!ssed that he could net get a job locally so now he's knocking the local industry.

I'm not saying the above is factually correct at all (probably isn't), merely that your posts conveyed this perception up to now.

So either justify the statements you made or if your justification revolves around this super-duper system you worked on, give some more info on it.

But on this forum, (you'll quickly learn) using "because I say so" as justification is not going to fly.

You really should hold back on those leading questions. In case you didn't follow; here's an example:
"When did you stop beating your wife?".
If you continue deliberately misquoting what I write, I'll just give up trying to convince you because it isn't worthwhile. You're personalizing things far too much as well and your questions are irrelevant beyond torture.

On the positive side, at least you've contributed something, which is more than I can say for the others who are just sniping.
I have an opinion, we all do. If you disagree, then challenge the point without attacking or mocking.

 

[Sackboy]

I just have a problem with the so called "IT" industry in general, now if it in Europe or in ZA. You have to know someone, or you lie through your teeth and get away with it. They that interview you are usually non-programmers, financial/agencies/Human Resource/Project Managers that used to be COBOL programmers. Eish I hate cobol, but ja. Now a cobol programmer interviews a C programmer. What is the result? Both dislike each other. Now my conclusion is that those that are trained is not interviewed by the correct person interviewing. The same goes for what does the company need because they don't care what you know, it is what they want. Fair enough.

The people that are scoring from IT, are the non science people. IT is purely the business guys. The guys knowing how to work with people, doing the fancy paperwork and throwing acronyms around with their "Business Analysis". They then go back to the backyard, you the programmer must then do the actual work, but get paid less anyway. The programmers are being exploited, making them get to do the max with less amount of time and money thrown at them. That is why I back "Sackboy".

The guys that got rich out of IT, wasn't the actual guys that got to do the work. Look at Bill Gates, he is a lawyer, drop out. Mark Shuttleworth, did IT BCom (he is just a bit better than Billy), dropped out. The guys from Oracle, SAP, they all know how to strike deals. Just like the car industry, the computer industry has some how fudged what was suppose to create a utopia, but instead we got a few people getting rich like hell out of exploiting certain conditions.

Capitalism thrives, Communism tells you what to do. Socialism, *sigh* who cares, they all fail.

Another problem is, South Africa claims middle class family earns R7000 'n month. Now tell me how does a middle class family buy a house? That would mean we are all rich, instead none of our aged 20 - 30 guys can afford to buy a normal 1000m2 plot with a house on it. We either all own/rent a birdcage some where in the city and have a fancy car. As soon as you start thinking of marriage, everything falls through the cracks and you end up owning the bank a crap load of money and then you realize you can't make the payments. This has got nothing to Europe/US going bonkers. We as a country fail. We are all poor and being exploited some how. That is the reality check we are all facing. Don't come back chat me if you're 40+, you guys are far better off when house prices were cheaper.

Your point about interviews is interesting. I've been through a truck load of these abroad, so I can generalize a bit. Most of the time your CV will be heavily scrutinized, especially if you're going for a MERCHANT BANK position. If you've put XYZ BANK April-Dec and PQR BANK Feb - Nov, they want to know what you did in between, with a letter from someone even if it was a holiday. Technical tests are also quite common. Often they will wheel in the resident expert to grill you or maybe give you a written test. Don't bother putting anything down that isn't true, they will continue with references even after you are settling in and working. I had one who persisted for months - when I had trouble contacting a relative on whose farm I took a holiday. A probation period of 3 months is also normal, with regular meetings to check progress.

It isn't a matter of who-knows-whom at all. In fact a whole industry of trusted head hunters/placement specialists exists. I can say they are very smooth and slick. They know their terminology and there is a very attractive finders fee for them one you are permanent. All in all it is very professional from start to finish.

 

[chubster]

Your point about interviews is interesting. I've been through a truck load of these abroad, so I can generalize a bit. Most of the time your CV will be heavily scrutinized, especially if you're going for a MERCHANT BANK position. If you've put XYZ BANK April-Dec and PQR BANK Feb - Nov, they want to know what you did in between, with a letter from someone even if it was a holiday. Technical tests are also quite common. Often they will wheel in the resident expert to grill you or maybe give you a written test. Don't bother putting anything down that isn't true, they will continue with references even after you are settling in and working. I had one who persisted for months - when I had trouble contacting a relative on whose farm I took a holiday. A probation period of 3 months is also normal, with regular meetings to check progress.

It isn't a matter of who-knows-whom at all. In fact a whole industry of trusted head hunters/placement specialists exists. I can say they are very smooth and slick. They know their terminology and there is a very attractive finders fee for them one you are permanent. All in all it is very professional from start to finish.

The lying part is associated with work experience, because you can pass their test 100%, the moment you say you don't have work experience they all turn you down, capetown johburg, all seem to do the same. I had the guys telling me I aced their tests, better than some of their senior developers and still they turned me down. Simply because "lack of working experience". So now I ask you how the hell do you get experience if they won't let you. It is so difficult to get into the market. So how do you make a name for your self and support your family at the same time? without losing your birdcage that the bank/wolves are drooling to take back. So it comes down to doing low end jobs just to get an income. Still I'm with you on South Africa is not the place for IT with science background.

Australia here I come.

 

[vodacom3g]

You really should hold back on those leading questions. In case you didn't follow; here's an example:
"When did you stop beating your wife?".
If you continue deliberately misquoting what I write, I'll just give up trying to convince you because it isn't worthwhile. You're personalizing things far too much as well and your questions are irrelevant beyond torture.

On the positive side, at least you've contributed something, which is more than I can say for the others who are just sniping.
I have an opinion, we all do. If you disagree, then challenge the point without attacking or mocking.

Asking you where you worked and on what system is a leading question? OK, if you say so.

In any case, it's clear that you're not going to try and support the statements you made.

 

[Sackboy]

The lying part is associated with work experience, because you can pass their test 100%, the moment you say you don't have work experience they all turn you down, capetown johburg, all seem to do the same. I had the guys telling me I aced their tests, better than some of their senior developers and still they turned me down. Simply because "lack of working experience". So now I ask you how the hell do you get experience if they won't let you. It is so difficult to get into the market. So how do you make a name for your self and support your family at the same time? without losing your birdcage that the bank/wolves are drooling to take back. So it comes down to doing low end jobs just to get an income. Still I'm with you on South Africa is not the place for IT with science background.

Australia here I come.

I did get the impression that attitude and willingness to learn and progress was more important than experience. Of course in a technical environment, the skills were paramount. I didn't need to 'lie', but if someone was found out he would probably not get an interview again. It's a confined space and gossip travels faster than light. Mind you, the placement people did an excellent job at coaching us, even doing mock interviews etc. to build confidence.

 

[vodacom3g]

The lying part is associated with work experience, because you can pass their test 100%, the moment you say you don't have work experience they all turn you down, capetown johburg, all seem to do the same. I had the guys telling me I aced their tests, better than some of their senior developers and still they turned me down. Simply because "lack of working experience". So now I ask you how the hell do you get experience if they won't let you. It is so difficult to get into the market. So how do you make a name for your self and support your family at the same time? without losing your birdcage that the bank/wolves are drooling to take back. So it comes down to doing low end jobs just to get an income. Still I'm with you on South Africa is not the place for IT with science background.

Australia here I come.

You'll find exactly the same situation anywhere in the world. Qualifications and acing tests unfortunately is only part of what is required to do a job. Certain things only come with time and maturity. That's just the reality.

So it is very difficult to get into a market, it's always been this way and it will always be so. Employers want employees that are educated AND productive, right off the bat if possible. This makes it difficult for anyone to start, so take what you can get and prove yourself.

So take a job as a junior and work your way up. If you're good, diligent and hard working, it will be noticed and you will move up.

But don't expect a qualification as a guarantee to a high-paying job.

 

[The_Unbeliever]

@ das sad sack - what experience do you have, and for how many years have you worked with computers?

 

[The_Unbeliever]

You'll find exactly the same situation anywhere in the world. Qualifications and acing tests unfortunately is only part of what is required to do a job. Certain things only come with time and maturity. That's just the reality.

So it is very difficult to get into a market, it's always been this way and it will always be so. Employers want employees that are educated AND productive, right off the bat if possible. This makes it difficult for anyone to start, so take what you can get and prove yourself.

So take a job as a junior and work your way up. If you're good, diligent and hard working, it will be noticed and you will move up.

But don't expect a qualification as a guarantee to a high-paying job.

+1

Unfortunately, most n00bies are blinded by visions of $$$ and doesn't want a low-paying job... but a cushy job, with office, PA, company car and other perks...

I started at the bottom, as PC technician, and worked myself up. I don't want a managerial post, I'm not manager material, and is quite happy where I am at the stage messing around with new programs, methodologies, ideas and the such.

Besides, damagement gets k@kked out first if something goes wrong