Mass stabbing on UK train

vigras rojara said:
Perhaps. But you only have to look at social media posts to see the increase in racism and intolerance.

MAGA made it mainstream and others are riding their coat tails for their enrichment.
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There is increase in such incidents in many countries, not only UK and US. Rise of the "right" is in many places.
 
Sideshow Bob said:
There is increase in such incidents in many countries, not only UK and US. Rise of the "right" is in many places.
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Hopefully it is peaking now and will slither back off into the sewer it emerged from.

There are signs that this is happening - I hope it's sustainable.
 
Sinbad said:
Perhaps you misunderstand what I mean by flagshaggers. Hell, we have flags in our house too. I was referring to the people putting them up, as I said, on every lamppost or piece of public furniture they could find. That's not the same thing.

Given how discourse has shifted to the right over the past while, anything right wing now is far right in my mind - it's right of right.

They want to get rid of ILR. That's ALL immigration.
Reform's predecessors (UKIP etc) caused the small boat issue. Farage is the architect of the problem.
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I'm not sure how they caused it? I would say that the Tories are largely responsible for Brexit as a sort of catalyst for small boats as half of Eastern Europe came to the UK where they immediately became eligible for benefits, then came the Albanians and every man and his dog saw a free lunch. Introducing a waiting period of say six months for Eurozone members would have stemmed the flow and made Brexit unnecessary and largely off the table.

Sinbad said:
They want to get rid of immigration full stop. No ILR means no immigration. Just temporary stays from now on.
Even the current government wants to make skilled immigration MUCH more difficult - 10 year route to citizenship etc. Do you realise that means 10 years of IHS payments (or double taxation, considering skilled immigrants will ALSO be paying NI?)
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Okay, I guess with the NHS and services in the state they are in maybe curbing immigration is a good idea. If UK doesn't need the skills then don't import them.
 
Spizz said:
I'm not sure how they caused it? I would say that the Tories are largely responsible for Brexit as a sort of catalyst for small boats as half of Eastern Europe came to the UK where they immediately became eligible for benefits, then came the Albanians and every man and his dog saw a free lunch. Introducing a waiting period of say six months for Eurozone members would have stemmed the flow and made Brexit unnecessary and largely off the table.
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Brexit removed the deterrence value of the Dublin conventions. It removed the legal route for the UK to request return of illegal migrants.
No deterrent = massive spike in illegal crossings.
Farage was the driving force behind Brexit.
Spizz said:
Okay, I guess with the NHS and services in the state they are in maybe curbing immigration is a good idea. If UK doesn't need the skills then don't import them.
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The UK does need the skills. My wife works for the NHS. However, the way things are leaning, the UK is going to lose that skill pool. Why would you uproot yourself and come here if not to secure a better life for yourself? Being tied to a work permit which means you're basically in the country at the whim of your employer doesn't give any form of stability - which is palatable for 5 years... but 10? Or indefinitely? Way to scare off the kind of people you actually WANT in a country.
 
The UK does indeed need the skills. Time to hire for key skilled positions has increased tremendously post-Brexit, as people can't move across from EU countries to take up roles at short notice.

London is a huge centre for inbound M&A activity for US companies and making it more difficult for those companies to acquire the skills they need undermines London's status in this regard.

Preventing/inhibiting immigration is economic sabotage.
 
Sinbad said:
Brexit removed the deterrence value of the Dublin conventions. It removed the legal route for the UK to request return of illegal migrants.
No deterrent = massive spike in illegal crossings.
Farage was the driving force behind Brexit.
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Farage has and had no political power and although UKIP were of course strong advocates and he brought it to the public discourse, the referendum and the campaign that pushed it over the line was surely from the Tories. I'd say the Brexit bus campaign and the "£350m a week for the NHS" lie from twats like Boris Johnson were more influential.

Sinbad said:
The UK does need the skills. My wife works for the NHS. However, the way things are leaning, the UK is going to lose that skill pool. Why would you uproot yourself and come here if not to secure a better life for yourself? Being tied to a work permit which means you're basically in the country at the whim of your employer doesn't give any form of stability - which is palatable for 5 years... but 10? Or indefinitely? Way to scare off the kind of people you actually WANT in a country.
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Fair enough. But if skills are needed then I'd imagine cutting off your nose to spite your face will only last so long.
 
Spizz said:
Farage has and had no political power and although UKIP were of course strong advocates and he brought it to the public discourse, the referendum and the campaign that pushed it over the line was surely from the Tories. I'd say the Brexit bus campaign and the "£350m a week for the NHS" lie from twats like Boris Johnson were more influential.
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I don't think it's fair to say he has or had no political power. While his vote may never have counted, his voice and his parties have definitely receive a huge amount of airtime, and influenced politicians based on his perceived threat to them.
Spizz said:
Fair enough. But if skills are needed then I'd imagine cutting off your nose to spite your face will only last so long.
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Indeed - but the scars will last a lot longer. Including the real impact on people's lives.
 
vigras rojara said:
The UK does indeed need the skills. Time to hire for key skilled positions has increased tremendously post-Brexit, as people can't move across from EU countries to take up roles at short notice.

London is a huge centre for inbound M&A activity for US companies and making it more difficult for those companies to acquire the skills they need undermines London's status in this regard.

Preventing/inhibiting immigration is economic sabotage.
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Fair enough, but I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. Specialist visas and dropping ILR doesn't mean recruitment will stop.
 
Spizz said:
Fair enough, but I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. Specialist visas and dropping ILR doesn't mean recruitment will stop.
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Why would you go through the upheaval of moving to another country that will forever treat you as a second class citizen, unless it's to build up a nest egg as a youngster and then go back home?
(which actually is just capital flight and thus terrible for the host country?)
 
Spizz said:
Fair enough, but I think it's a bit more nuanced than that. Specialist visas and dropping ILR doesn't mean recruitment will stop.
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Perhaps, but Brexit slowed it down and putting further obstacles in the way certainly won't help.
 
Sinbad said:
Why would you go through the upheaval of moving to another country that will forever treat you as a second class citizen, unless it's to build up a nest egg as a youngster and then go back home?
(which actually is just capital flight and thus terrible for the host country?)
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I'm not sure what being treated as a second class citizen would entail, but you say it like it's a bad thing. I've been in SA for over 20 years for example and I'm not a citizen but I don't think I'm treated any different than anyone else. Besides, millions of people have moved to the UK to work and moved back to their own country again including scores of people on this very forum.

Maybe it's time the UK restarted investing in apprenticeships and giving special considerations to needed skills.
 
Spizz said:
I'm not sure what being treated as a second class citizen would entail, but you say it like it's a bad thing. I've been in SA for over 20 years for example and I'm not a citizen but I don't think I'm treated any different than anyone else. Besides, millions of people have moved to the UK to work and moved back to their own country again including scores of people on this very forum.

Maybe it's time the UK restarted investing in apprenticeships and giving special considerations to needed skills.
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Not being eligibile for citizenship. Not having the right to settle permanently. Not having recourse to the social safety net that your taxation funds. Double taxation (IHS surcharge). It is impactful in a country where citizenship confers actual benefits on you, unlike South Africa in which it doesn't really, as you've pointed out.

I mentioned the short work stay thing before - the only reason to do that is to take something away from the country (be it experience, money, whatever). That's not good for the host country - especially as skills that you obtain/develop will leave with you. Definitely removes anyone looking for any kind of stability or future from the prospective employee pool.

And I 100000% percent agree that the UK should be producing the skills ourselves. But pragmatically, we are not there yet.
 
Sinbad said:
Not being eligibile for citizenship. Not having the right to settle permanently. Not having recourse to the social safety net that your taxation funds. Double taxation (IHS surcharge). It is impactful in a country where citizenship confers actual benefits on you, unlike South Africa in which it doesn't really, as you've pointed out.

I mentioned the short work stay thing before - the only reason to do that is to take something away from the country (be it experience, money, whatever). That's not good for the host country - especially as skills that you obtain/develop will leave with you. Definitely removes anyone looking for any kind of stability or future from the prospective employee pool.

And I 100000% percent agree that the UK should be producing the skills ourselves. But pragmatically, we are not there yet.
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In addition, one point I missed, sorry. You have PR in South Africa. That's ILR here. Reform want to get rid of ILR.
Would you be comfortable in SA if you had no permanent residence and had to re-apply for a visa every few years, with all the headaches, red tape and costs involved, and no guarantee that the visa would be granted?
 
vigras rojara said:
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Sinbad said:
In addition, one point I missed, sorry. You have PR in South Africa. That's ILR here. Reform want to get rid of ILR.
Would you be comfortable in SA if you had no permanent residence and had to re-apply for a visa every few years, with all the headaches, red tape and costs involved, and no guarantee that the visa would be granted?
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Sure thing, I admit I haven't given the ILR much thought since it was on the news a few weeks ago. But I had to jump through many hoops to get my PR and if the same process is in place in the UK then i have no real issues with it staying.
 
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