[May 2013..Dec 2013] The Gauteng E-tolling Thread

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xeslaro said:
Not sure what the misunderstanding is - there is an Act of parliament and amendment Acts to that, that empower scamral - it's the Law. How invoicing and fees due is recovered is purely administrative and won't be written into the Act.

From what little I read just now, the Act makes no distinction between a physical and an electronic toll. When you use a toll road with a physical toll booth you don't sign any T&C's - you liable nonetheless.
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You are right and I think the majority of people had been shocked so tremendously by the announcement of toll roads that they totally miss this.

Toll related law has been established years and years ago. You cannot use a toll road without paying, and the law never distinguished between any different type of toll roads.

Government just shafted everyone in the A@@ when they erected the toll roads with the aim to continue their corrupt practices and satisfy their endless need for greed.

Unfortunately, everyone will just end up paying - no matter all the lies or laws and as with Taxes government will ensure that everyone pay their toll fees due.

As with taxes, I have been present over years where people received fines for not paying taxes, to a point where they were sent to jail for one or two years. If you do not declare tax today the minimum sentence for a first offender is 10 years in prison. I see the gauteng toll road issue will also turn to this.
 
House said:
As with taxes, I have been present over years where people received fines for not paying taxes, to a point where they were sent to jail for one or two years. If you do not declare tax today the minimum sentence for a first offender is 10 years in prison. I see the gauteng toll road issue will also turn to this.
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Guys, please listen. E-tolls are not taxes according to the government. They are; we know this; they cannot deny this. But part of their legal defence is that tolls are not taxes. So as we stand, they are not. If they are considered taxes, then Sanral have a legal problem on their hands...
 
http://www.fin24.com/Economy/Sanral-twisting-our-words-Sacci-20131126

Johannesburg - The SA National Roads Agency Limited (Sanral) has twisted the SA Chamber of Commerce and Industry's (Sacci) stance on e-tolling, the organisation said on Tuesday.

Sacci CEO Neren Rau said it wished to clarify its position on e-tolls.

"Sacci remains opposed to e-tolls because of the high collection costs and the overall burden the tolls will have on the economy," he said in a statement.

"However, Sacci will advise its members to abide by the law if the e-toll law is implemented on December 3 because of the high cost of non-compliance."
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xeslaro said:
Not sure what the misunderstanding is - there is an Act of parliament and amendment Acts to that, that empower scamral - it's the Law. How invoicing and fees due is recovered is purely administrative and won't be written into the Act.

From what little I read just now, the Act makes no distinction between a physical and an electronic toll. When you use a toll road with a physical toll booth you don't sign any T&C's - you liable nonetheless.
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Hmmmm. Agree to disagree means that there is no point arguing about something as both parties as opposing views without a possibility to come to an agreement.

So, yes. This is a misunderstanding.
 
creeper said:
Hmmmm. Agree to disagree means that there is no point arguing about something as both parties as opposing views without a possibility to come to an agreement.

So, yes. This is a misunderstanding.
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I doubt he was confused about the "agree to disagree" part. He was merely pointing out that it is law. And he is correct...
 
House said:
You are right and I think the majority of people had been shocked so tremendously by the announcement of toll roads that they totally miss this.

Toll related law has been established years and years ago. You cannot use a toll road without paying, and the law never distinguished between any different type of toll roads.

Government just shafted everyone in the A@@ when they erected the toll roads with the aim to continue their corrupt practices and satisfy their endless need for greed.

Unfortunately, everyone will just end up paying - no matter all the lies or laws and as with Taxes government will ensure that everyone pay their toll fees due.

As with taxes, I have been present over years where people received fines for not paying taxes, to a point where they were sent to jail for one or two years. If you do not declare tax today the minimum sentence for a first offender is 10 years in prison. I see the gauteng toll road issue will also turn to this.
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DJ... said:
Guys, please listen. E-tolls are not taxes according to the government. They are; we know this; they cannot deny this. But part of their legal defence is that tolls are not taxes. So as we stand, they are not. If they are considered taxes, then Sanral have a legal problem on their hands...
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And one cannot be imprisoned for debt.
 
blunomore said:
And one cannot be imprisoned for debt.
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Well, you can be imprisoned for non-payment of court-instructed fines and payments iirc, but in Sanral's case it won't apply. Although I wouldn't put it past Sanral to try to wriggle in an 18th century debtors prison or two...
 
DJ... said:
Well, you can be imprisoned for non-payment of court-instructed fines and payments iirc, but in Sanral's case it won't apply. Although I wouldn't put it past Sanral to try to wriggle in an 18th century debtors prison or two...
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Like try make an example of the first couple of non payers. Wouldn't surprise me if they they do/try.
 
Sneeky said:
In other words screw the public, we will just pass it on to you and not take a stand.
AVIS, goodbye.
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It's far worse, as it sounds like AVIS is planning on charging their clients the standard E-Toll rate while they themselves are receiving a fat discount, in other words, they stand to profit from it, so it is little wonder that they have invested in new systems and support the scam.
 
blunomore said:
And one cannot be imprisoned for debt.
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DJ... said:
Well, you can be imprisoned for non-payment of court-instructed fines and payments iirc, but in Sanral's case it won't apply. Although I wouldn't put it past Sanral to try to wriggle in an 18th century debtors prison or two...
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I think people need to know that when passing under a gantry they instantly become liable for that toll-fee - there is no such thing as refusal to pay. If a person refuses to pay he then breaks the law, simple. The debt remains outstanding, but now the criminal law is invoked regarding any refusal to pay - either with an ensuing admission of guilt fine or there must be a proper conviction in a court of law. (not for the debt but for the refusal to pay)

The purpose of the e-tag boycott is to frustrate the system and should not be confused with a refusal to pay, the latter is a criminal offence.

My understanding - I could be wrong.
 
xeslaro said:
I think people need to know that when passing under a gantry they instantly become liable for that toll-fee - there is no such thing as refusal to pay. If a person refuses to pay he then breaks the law, simple. The debt remains outstanding, but now the criminal law is invoked regarding any refusal to pay - either with an ensuing admission of guilt fine or there must be a proper conviction in a court of law. (not for the debt but for the refusal to pay)

The purpose of the e-tag boycott is to frustrate the system and should not be confused with a refusal to pay, the latter is a criminal offence.

My understanding - I could be wrong.
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No, this is not the case with e-tolls. You have every right to object, and that process can be drawn out for an extended period if you have your ducks in a row. There's also no admission of guilt fine here, as it is not a fine. It is a toll. You have not transgressed the law by the act of driving under the gantry. Nor have you transgressed the law if you fail to pay within 7 days. You have only really transgressed the law once a judge finds your objections invalid and orders you to pay. I might be wrong on this last part though, but I don't believe that a criminal act has been committed.

They have penalties in place to bully you in to paying. Their carrot-and-stick approach is nothing but a penalty - it is not an incentive...
 
DJ... said:
No, this is not the case with e-tolls. You have every right to object, and that process can be drawn out for an extended period if you have your ducks in a row. There's also no admission of guilt fine here, as it is not a fine. It is a toll. You have not transgressed the law by the act of driving under the gantry. Nor have you transgressed the law if you fail to pay within 7 days. You have only really transgressed the law once a judge finds your objections invalid and orders you to pay. I might be wrong on this last part though, but I don't believe that a criminal act has been committed.

They have penalties in place to bully you in to paying. Their carrot-and-stick approach is nothing but a penalty - it is not an incentive...
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I agree with you in most part. The admission of guilt I referred to was for the fine and not the actual toll fee itself. Technically, it is an offense to refuse or fail to pay - either a fine or imprisonment - according to the Act. I'm sure the imprisonment part will be kicked in the nuts at the first Constitutional case.
 
xeslaro said:
I agree with you in most part. The admission of guilt I referred to was for the fine and not the actual toll fee itself. Technically, it is an offense to refuse or fail to pay - either a fine or imprisonment - according to the Act. I'm sure the imprisonment part will be kicked in the nuts at the first Constitutional case.
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They can't imprison you for debt, unless they want to start building and legislating for debtors prisons. They are trying to have their cake and eat it at every opportunity and I simply cannot see them getting away with it.

First it's not a tax, which it is. Then it's a debt, but default on said debt is punishable by criminal proceedings. Argh, I hate these scum...
 
Right so if I understand this correctly , if I am an unregistered road user it is my duty to present myself within 7 days of using the tolls road to pay my toll ? I am assuming they will have documentary proof available at the etoll place of each and every gantry I used in order to bill me ?

I am also assuming their offices are open 24 / 7 as they must accommodate the full 7 days for those poor souls using the gantries at 2am on a Monday morning ?

I will be requiring certified copies of each of these with photographs of my vehicle before I pay anything. I will also be demanding a clearance certificate in writing signed by the manager of said station each time I visit and pay to ensure that I am 10000000% compliant and paid up with their BS.

I luckily only need to use the high way once or twice a week , so I don't really mind dragging their poor staff through an entire rigmarole once a week or every two weeks to pay my one or two gantry fee.

I am also considering trying to figure out some way to bill then for time and materials as they will be taking time out my business day to deal with their crappy admin. This one I think will be difficult as they can just argue i could avoid the admin by being tagged

I will keep all this evidence with me, sooner or later there will be a f up in their system and I will be billed unnecessarily or incorrectly, then I'll be seeking out those lawyers :)
 
I've already mapped out my route to work and back, avoiding the eToll highways for a few weeks. I'd rather just not pay a cent to these *******s.
 
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