Mbeki may be right about whites

[Tassidar]

The fact is we wanted this country to work. The ANC has other ideas.

Hi Pitbull,
I think that is a bit unfair. The ANC does want to make the country work. In many ways, it often gets it wrong, but on the whole it has succeeded.

That is not to say I agree with the ANC policies, nor that I don't think the job could be done a whole lot better, but the country is working, and working fairly well at the moment.

 

[Pitbull]

Hi Pitbull,
I think that is a bit unfair. The ANC does want to make the country work. In many ways, it often gets it wrong, but on the whole it has succeeded.

That is not to say I agree with the ANC policies, nor that I don't think the job could be done a whole lot better, but the country is working, and working fairly well at the moment.

Ok you're 100% correct. I over reacted because of his stupid post.

Sorry guys

 

[rwenzori]

Hi Pitbull,
I think that is a bit unfair. The ANC does want to make the country work. In many ways, it often gets it wrong, but on the whole it has succeeded.

That is not to say I agree with the ANC policies, nor that I don't think the job could be done a whole lot better, but the country is working, and working fairly well at the moment.

Good posts, Tassidar.
/me is calming a little

Sorry for getting a bit carried away.

 

[xtermin8or]

Thanks for elaborating.

Just a couple of quick questions:
(1) What are the concrete steps?
(2) How are they working?
(3) What if any are the proposed strategies for an effective solution?
(4) Do you believe that Charles Nqakula and Jackie Selebi are the right people to be tackling crime in the country?
(5) If not, in light of the above question, do you think that Mbeki is doing his job as president correctly (specifically with respect to crime)?
(6) If not, do you think that criticism about crime labelled at Mbeki is justified by any or all racial groups in South Africa?

1. the State of the Nation talks about the concrete steps - there are also new police stations being built - mainly in partnership with the communities - these are proving quite effective - there are plans in place to increase the roles and responsibilities of the Community Policing Forum - the anti-crime campaign with Primedia is but one of the Public Private partenrships aimed at addressing crime - and the list goes on and on

2. The reduction in crime is due in no small measure to some of the strategies that were adopted by Government - time will tell if the new plans have an impact

3. any strategy once interrogated is hoped to be an effective plan - this is quite obvious

4. I see no problem with Charles Nqakula - Jackie Selebi however I feel needs to be properly investigated and dealt with

5. President Mbeki has done his job - in as far as setting the national agenda and prioritising crime - his job is to delegate and that is what he has done

6. The President has made his feelings on crime quite clear, and people should rather try to help in the fight against crime rather than complain

 

[Jozi101]

Yup - we dream that this incompetent govt might one day start performing. Stupid optimists.

Don't forget that a large part of the ex-SADF ( ie: the "apartheid" one ) ( including conscripts ) remain armed thanks to the cheap military surplus firearms made available to us. We might be getting on a little, but I can still field-strip and re-assemble an R1 blindfolded, and you would not want to be firing at me within 400 metres.

Hmmm

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2057308,00.html

You and your friends are living in a fool's paradise if you think you'll stand a chance against an entire country.

Racist! I are not Afrikaans!

Where, precisely, did we fail militarily??? LOL! Are you referring to that "struggle" of yours? Probably the most feeble revolutionary war ever "fought". Thankfully we are past all that now, but no need to flatter yourselves!

Clearly you've served in apartheid's so called army, that fought non existent wars in Angola.

Ok you're 100% correct. I over reacted because of his stupid post.

Sorry guys

In case you don't know who the Boeremag is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeremag

We all know what happened to them

 

[JBFRobisher]

The ANC does want to make the country work.

I dunno - you have to suspect the motives of anyone who appoints people like Ivy and Manto to positions of responsibility. Trev, though, is the best we have ever had by a clear mile.

 

[Tassidar]

1. the State of the Nation talks about the concrete steps - there are also new police stations being built - mainly in partnership with the communities - these are proving quite effective - there are plans in place to increase the roles and responsibilities of the Community Policing Forum - the anti-crime campaign with Primedia is but one of the Public Private partenrships aimed at addressing crime - and the list goes on and on

2. The reduction in crime is due in no small measure to some of the strategies that were adopted by Government - time will tell if the new plans have an impact

3. any strategy once interrogated is hoped to be an effective plan - this is quite obvious

4. I see no problem with Charles Nqakula - Jackie Selebi however I feel needs to be properly investigated and dealt with

5. President Mbeki has done his job - in as far as setting the national agenda and prioritising crime - his job is to delegate and that is what he has done

6. The President has made his feelings on crime quite clear, and people should rather try to help in the fight against crime rather than complain

Thanks for the answer.

I have heard the CPFs are quite effective.

I don't understand point (3), please rephrase.

Personally, I disagree with points no 4,5 and 6. Nqakula as Minister of Safety and Security should have got rid of Selebi, in his failure to do so, he has failed in his job.

Correspondingly, Mbeki should have got rid of Nqakula for failing to do his job, and herein lies the rub for me: Mr Mbeki is not holding his ministers accountable. This very forum exists because of this lack of accountability, that has allowed Matseppi-Casaburri to continue in her job for so long.

So, while we must acknowledge Mbeki's prioritising of crime, I do not believe he should be regarded as above criticism. After all, he is ultimately accountable to the citizens of the country, and should therefore be prepared to take criticism from citizens who feel he could be doing better.

 

[xtermin8or]

Just a few stories on how communities can work to fight crime

A petite Despatch teenager proved to be too strong for two burglars when she chased after them on her motor scooter, attacking one with her crash helmet and eventually handing them over to the police. Marilee Hibbers, 18 years old, had not thought about what danger she could have been in - her only goal was to get the two criminals arrested

The Fort Grey Sector Policing Forum achieved success over the past three months. Community patrols were monitored by the sector manager, Inspector Mpumelelo Maqhubela. These community members on patrol helped the police to arrest 15 suspects and to confiscate more than 35 dangerous weapons. The weapons included pangas, knives, saws, axes and bush knives. The patrols were initiated by residents after they encountered problems of robbery and stabbings especially over weekends in this informal settlement.

When a crime-weary community works in unison with the police to make life extremely difficult for thugs, and succeeds, it offers hope for others who despair over crime. This is the amazing story if the small Ngwathe township in pays, Free State, where the police, councillors, police reservists and the community police forum have succeeded in fighting this scrouge and making the place a no-go area for criminals.

Plus I heard that the Crimeline by Primedia is working - a number of arrests have already been made - we can all do something

 

[Tassidar]

I dunno - you have to suspect the motives of anyone who appoints people like Ivy and Manto to positions of responsibility. Trev, though, is the best we have ever had by a clear mile.

See post above #128

 

[rwenzori]

You and your friends are living in a fool's paradise if you think you'll stand a chance against an entire country.

Who said anything about that? We were talking about dealing with crime.

Clearly you've served in apartheid's so called army, that fought non existent wars in Angola.

Yup, yup. And a few other non-existent raids. LOL! I dunno about the "so-called" bit though - it might have fought non-existent wars but it was quite real!

In case you don't know who the Boeremag is:

We all know what happened to them

You imply cwazy things about me. I can only believe because of your own prejudices. Say after me, slowly, "rwenzori is NOT an Afrikaner". Who's a racist now, who's a racist nowwwwww?? LOL!

 

[xtermin8or]

Thanks for the answer.

I have heard the CPFs are quite effective.

I don't understand point (3), please rephrase.

Personally, I disagree with points no 4,5 and 6. Nqakula as Minister of Safety and Security should have got rid of Selebi, in his failure to do so, he has failed in his job.

Correspondingly, Mbeki should have got rid of Nqakula for failing to do his job, and herein lies the rub for me: Mr Mbeki is not holding his ministers accountable. This very forum exists because of this lack of accountability, that has allowed Matseppi-Casaburri to continue in her job for so long.

So, while we must acknowledge Mbeki's prioritising of crime, I do not believe he should be regarded as above criticism. After all, he is ultimately accountable to the citizens of the country, and should therefore be prepared to take criticism from citizens who feel he could be doing better.

Nqakula can not possibly fire Selebi because he has technically not failed to do his job - he can also neither fire him because of allegations of corruption until it has been properly investigated - and so Nqakula has not failed in his duty - The President then too has not failed in his duty

Criticise the President, yes, we must, and anyone else in Government - complain with no basis - no we can't

as for number three - I meant that Government would hope that every strategy they put in place is an effective solution

 

[JBFRobisher]

so called army

If it was so "so called" why is this govt so **** scared to bring back the Commandos to help deal with crime as suggested in this thread? Forget all this mush about public-private partnerships and community policing - the Police ( and Army if necessary ) are supposed to do the protecting, so the rest of the populace can get on with their work. The govt is just ducking their responsibility.

 

[xtermin8or]

If it was so "so called" why is this govt so **** scared to bring back the Commandos to help deal with crime as suggested in this thread? Forget all this mush about public-private partnerships and community policing - the Police ( and Army if necessary ) are supposed to do the protecting, so the rest of the populace can get on with their work. The govt is just ducking their responsibility.

FYI - Most of the members of the commandos have been retrained and brought into policing units - the commandos were largely ineffective as a crime fighting unit as they were not properly trained - besides all the reports of commandos blikseming kaffirs is probably the main reason they were disbanded

Community policing and Public Private partnerships work - I would rather do something - then sit around whinging

 

[Tassidar]

Nqakula can not possibly fire Selebi because he has technically not failed to do his job - he can also neither fire him because of allegations of corruption until it has been properly investigated - and so Nqakula has not failed in his duty - The President then too has not failed in his duty

Criticise the President, yes, we must, and anyone else in Government - complain with no basis - no we can't
as for number three - I meant that Government would hope that every strategy they put in place is an effective solution

Thanks, XT.

Clearly then we disagree about what constitutes criticise and what consitutes complain with no basis.

Criticise for me, means that you believe that there is a definite way of doing the job better than is being done, while complain with no basis means to just whinge. My comments on Selebi and Nqakula as far as I am concerned constitute criticism. I think that this would apply for most people concerned with crime.

I think that if proper performance clauses were put into place, with measurable deliverables, you would find that Selebi failed in his job.

Perhaps he should not be fired, but politely asked to resign.

BTW: In many other countries, Selebi would have resigned in disgrace much earlier - in Japan, perhaps he would have fallen on his sword.

Do you really believe that Selebi and Nqakula are the best people for the job. Do they seem inspired to you? Do they seem passionate about their job? Do they strike you as dynamic go-getters? Do they seem prepared to take accountability for their performance, or are they quick to blame others if they fail?

I would argue that the post of Cabinet Minister is a highly responsible and respected job, and to be good at your job is just not good enough. You should have to be exceptional. Personally, I think that we are far to prepared to accept sub-standard performances from our leaders.

 

[kilo39]

The matter we seek to discuss, in the context of the struggle to create a non-racial society, is what Nelson Mandela identified as the phenomenon of the re-emergence of the prophets of doom, who "spread messages about...rampant and uncontrollable crime", conducting "a massive propaganda campaign...on the issue of crime, in many instances without any regard and respect for the truth." The question to ask is - why did this happen then, and why does it continue to happen now?
-
-
the fact of the matter is that we still have a significant proportion of people among the white minority, but by no means everybody who is white, that continues to live in fear of the black, and especially African majority. For this section of our population, that does not "find it too difficult to revert to the accustomed world of fear of the future", every reported incident of crime communicates the frightening and expected message that - the kaffirs are coming!

Any person that uses the K word immediately loses my respect (and that includes mbeki.) Stop perceiving racism and take your place like everyone else in the world: the only labels that stick are those that you apply to yourself (or allow other people to apply to you. F#k 'em.) It is mbeki's perception and whether true or not is beside the point: fix it oblivious to all around you ('cause he can) with a bit of direction instead of long winded diatribes, racist rhetoric, wringing his hands.

conducting "a massive propaganda campaign

FFS the day is rare that we are not met by some horrific headline, crime. The media do not make this stuff up and yes they are correct to report it, it is reality! And to call it a propaganda campaign is subversive and blatantly untrue. But then what would Mbeki know: he is never in the country to read the headlines or watch the news (or special assignment, or 3rd degree,) if he was or did he wouldn't make such idiotic statements.

"in many instances without any regard and respect for the truth"

Ya a matter of white perception. Tut.

 

[Pitbull]

Any person that uses the K word immediately loses my respect (and that includes mbeki

Which K word ? Kilo ?

 

[JK8]

Ahhhh another b!tch whining thread...

 

[Jozi101]

Ahhhh another b!tch whining thread...

l.o.l

 

[Tassidar]

Ahhhh another b!tch whining thread...

Genius, pure Genius.

Your contribution to debate for the day on four threads

Well done for having found the cut and paste keys. Tomorrow, perhaps someone can teach you how to put text in bold.

Grow up!

 

[JK8]

Genius, pure Genius.

Your contribution to debate for the day on four threads

Well done for having found the cut and paste keys. Tomorrow, perhaps someone can teach you how to put text in bold.

Grow up!

Been there, done that, got Bwanas warning in my inbox.