Military force can and does defeat terror.

[Alan]

More reading problems :
Yeah, silly you. But not because you're wrong about the responsibility, but because you can't read when I say that the ANC are unfit to be rulers.

Oh wait I see you what you're saying. You must negotiate with terrorists but don't expect them to live up to their obligations afterwards. It all make sense now . Although I don't see how 100 000s dying is a peaceful transition

 

[Xarog]

Oh wait I see you what you're saying. You must negotiate with terrorists but don't expect them to live up to their obligations afterwards.

They did live up to their obligations regarding the negotiations. They became a legitimate (although terrible) political party, and stood for elections just like everyone else.

They have not lived up to their election promises, but that has absolutely nothing to do with ceasing to be a terrorist organisation.

It all make sense now . Although I don't see how 100 000s dying is a peaceful transition

Um, still waiting for you to show where people have died in such numbers because of politically motivated violence.

 

[Slaine73]

But to be fair, it may be that there are times when negotiation won't work, but it is certainly not reasonable to claim that it doesn't work when no one has in good faith tried to make it work. And regarding the Israel/Palestine conflict, no such good faith attempt has yet been made.

I agree that negotiation must always be tried first. But in the case of Palestine and Israel I don't think one of the two really want to negotiate. Both just want it their way...

 

[CyraxHB]

It turns out, though, that despite claims to the contrary, that the ANC was indeed willing to negotiate, and once the Nats made the right overtures, negotiations did indeed begin. In the conflict that noxibox brought up, it is again the terrorists who are willing to negotiate, and who've said as much, but it is the occupying power which claims they "have no partner for peace", that "we do not negotiate with terrorists", etc. etc.

The ANC were willing to negotiate because they obviously knew they were not able to overthrow the government militarily. (This is where hamas should take note).

From the side of the NATS; the country was under heavy sanctions which were hurting the economy so the government had more motive to start negotiations with the ANC etc.

 

[LazyLion]

Like Israel, the US, and every other nation state out there, which is apparently justified in abusing human rights.

No, like your bomb-toting, rocket launching, baby murdering pals in Hamas!

 

[Xarog]

No, like your bomb-toting, rocket launching, baby murdering pals in Hamas!

Really? That's not what you said here :

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=154295

 

[stix]

Yea it really worked fantastically in Iraqi.....

 

[AvOk]

No, like your bomb-toting, rocket launching, baby murdering pals in Hamas!

Slightly OT: gary since when does a hatred for Israel mean a love for Hamas?

 

[Alan]

They did live up to their obligations regarding the negotiations. They became a legitimate (although terrible) political party, and stood for elections just like everyone else.

Legitimate political party

The first election they lose it will cease to be the case. If you can even call it one now

They have not lived up to their election promises, but that has absolutely nothing to do with ceasing to be a terrorist organisation.

So Zanu PF ceased to be a terrorist organization when Mad Bob was elected. Interesting. The ANC has failed to live up it's obligations. Bottom line. They're still the same ANC from 20 years ago. The only reason they cease to be a terrorist organization as you put it is because they're in power and masquerading as a political party was what got them there. Any terrorist organization given the opportunity to be democratically elected would use it duh. Even the Nazis did.

Oh and the ANC still terrorizes motorists and the populace through their refusal to take on crime for example.

Um, still waiting for you to show where people have died in such numbers because of politically motivated violence.

Your ludicrous argument that they're now a 'political party' as opposed to a terrorist organization when they wreck death and destruction proves that negotiating with terrorists works is laughable. All you've done is change the label lol

Oh and you might want to look into KwaZulu Natal political violence for a lesson in history.

Yea it really worked fantastically in Iraqi.....

It worked though.......

 

[stix]

ahh no it didn't....unless you think an occupying force the local populace would rather see dead is a success

 

[Xarog]

Legitimate political party

The first election they lose it will cease to be the case. If you can even call it one now.

Perhaps. But in the meantime we've had 15 years of democracy.

So Zanu PF ceased to be a terrorist organization when Mad Bob was elected. Interesting. The ANC has failed to live up it's obligations. Bottom line. They're still the same ANC from 20 years ago.

Nope. Mandela is no longer in charge. Mbeki has been ousted. Several of the bigwigs have left to form their own party. There is a reasonable possibility of Zuma being thrown into prison.

The only reason they cease to be a terrorist organization as you put it is because they're in power and masquerading as a political party was what got them there. Any terrorist organization given the opportunity to be democratically elected would use it duh. Even the Nazis did.

Actually the Nazis demanded dictatorial powers as soon as they got into power. Fail.

Oh and the ANC still terrorizes motorists and the populace through their refusal to take on crime for example.

Funny how the people most severely hit by crime are actually black males.

Your ludicrous argument that they're now a 'political party' as opposed to a terrorist organization when they wreck death and destruction proves that negotiating with terrorists works is laughable. All you've done is change the label lol

Sure, because the ANC is still out there planting bombs every other week.

Oh and you might want to look into KwaZulu Natal political violence for a lesson in history.

You might want to count how many were killed from 1991 to 1994. You might then also wish to check how much of that violence was organised by followers of the IFP and ANC, with the heads of those organisations having no knowledge of, nor any control of the behaviour of those who claimed to support them. This is a far cry from organised and premeditated terrorist attacks against uninvolved civilians.

 

[Alan]

ahh no it didn't....unless you think an occupying force the local populace would rather see dead is a success

Odd then that violence has plummeted. You wouldn't expect to play pool with the locals who want you dead like the soldiers did the other night on BBC. But in any case those that committed acts of terror are no longer able to carry out operations like they used too. Regardless of what the locals think. Terror 0 Military force 1

Perhaps. But in the meantime we've had 15 years of democracy.

Yes and Zimbabwe had 20 years of democracy as well then

Nope. Mandela is no longer in charge. Mbeki has been ousted. Several of the bigwigs have left to form their own party. There is a reasonable possibility of Zuma being thrown into prison.

Same party, same aim and largely the same people.....

Actually the Nazis demanded dictatorial powers as soon as they got into power. Fail.

That was not the point eish. The point is a terrorist organization given the opportunity to come too power masquerading as a legitimate political party in a democratic process will obviously do it. Just look at Zim. By your logic Zanu PF went from terrorist organization to political party and back again. As long as they can hold on to power by carrying on the charade they will. Soon as they're threatened they stop the charade revealing what they truly are as Zanu PF did.

Funny how the people most severely hit by crime are actually black males

.

and what has that got to do with anything

Sure, because the ANC is still out there planting bombs every other week.

No they just take shots at passing motorists. If by some miracle the DA wins the next election I assure you they'll be planting bombs again. Just because they don't need to now doesn't mean they've changed

You might want to count how many were killed from 1991 to 1994. You might then also wish to check how much of that violence was organised by followers of the IFP and ANC, with the heads of those organisations having no knowledge of, nor any control of the behaviour of those who claimed to support them. This is a far cry from organised and premeditated terrorist attacks against uninvolved civilians.

1000s were killed. Tens of thousands going back to the 80s. Oh so the leaders had no control or knowledge. How convenient *tinfoil hat time*

 

[LazyLion]

a visual lesson in how military force beats terror...

[WARNING! GRUESOME PICTURES! NOT FOR THE FAINT HEARTED]

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/09/01/atrocities.html

Mods, I do believe this post is relevant to the thread discussion. Please do not delete indiscriminately. The post does carry a warning.

Edit: and more ironic that this is on David Irving's website!

 

[d0b33]

Sri Lanka is not the Israel/Palestine conflict, totally different. Could military force defeat the anti-apartheid terrorist movement? nope it failed.

 

[LazyLion]

Sri Lanka is not the Israel/Palestine conflict, totally different. Could military force defeat the anti-apartheid terrorist movement? nope it failed.

... and now the terrorists are busy stealing your taxes!

 

[d0b33]

... and now the terrorists are busy stealing your taxes!

The Apartheid government was just as corrupt, the problem we have today are idiot voters voting idiots into power.

 

[Xarog]

PAC didn't get into power. Why aren't they out there bombing things?

 

[BBSA]

PAC didn't get into power. Why aren't they out there bombing things?

Irrelevant, absolute irrelevant.

 

[Xarog]

Irrelevant, absolute irrelevant.

Actually, it's quite relevant. You see, the PAC were also a "terrorist organisation". Since the claim is that terrorists are indefinitely terrorists and they can never amend their ways, the PAC directly disproves that this is not true in all cases. Thus, it is unreasonable to dismiss the concept of negotiations leading to and end in terrorism, even within an African context.

 

[LazyLion]

Irrelevant, absolute irrelevant.

LMAO!

He doesn't know what that means... come on... stop picking on him!