Mosque for [NY WTC] Ground Zero?

As a native New Yorker I've yet to come to terms with just how I feel about all this.
 
bwana said:
As a native New Yorker I've yet to come to terms with just how I feel about all this.
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Why should you? it's not really going to happen, just more media hype for a development proposal stacked amongst many others that would probably be better but not hype worthy.
 
Garyvdh said:
Yeah, it's not like the more radical elements among them are known for blowing stuff up, is it? And it's not like they have tried to blow up any other buildings or planes before or after then is it? :rolleyes:
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So the easy way out is to blame them?
 
JK8 said:
Try make a list?
Were you there in 2001?
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No, I was here then and fortunately my father had retired from working there a few years beforehand.

Some of my friends and schoolmates weren't so fortunate though.
 
Did they build a neo-nazi center next to Tel-Aviv? Why on earth would you want to put a mosque in an area Muslims tried to destroy?
 
w1z4rd said:
Did they build a neo-nazi center next to Tel-Aviv? Why on earth would you want to put a mosque in an area Muslims tried to destroy?
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Terrorists, dude. They were terrorists. Plenty of Muslims were shocked by their actions too.

A better example would be opening a beer and bratwurst stand in Tel Aviv. Would you have a problem with that?
 
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People forget Muslims also died and were not terrorists on 9/11.

But this fuss about a mosque is just more of the same, it is not going to happen, there is no confirmed bids etc, just more of the same racist/anti-Semitic islamaphobia.
 
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grayston said:
Terrorists, dude. They were terrorists. Plenty of Muslims were shocked by their actions too.
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The ones I knew were excited and happy about it. No lies.. "normal" run of the mill Muslims that went about putting Bin Ladin ringtones and images in celebration of the attacks on their cellphones. I didnt see shocks of dismay.. until two or three days after the event.. but only after I had seen their real reactions. So I dont really trust Muslims... theyre up there with creationists in trustworthiness. Ive seen the local muslims here try deceive people about their reaction to 9/11 so I have trust issues.
 
Wouldn't a mosque look out of place there. It's the same as the minarets in Switzerland? They don't match architecture of that area.
 
w1z4rd said:
The ones I knew were excited and happy about it. No lies.. "normal" run of the mill Muslims that went about putting Bin Ladin ringtones and images in celebration of the attacks on their cellphones. I didnt see shocks of dismay.. until two or three days after the event.. but only after I had seen their real reactions. So I dont really trust Muslims... theyre up there with creationists in trustworthiness. Ive seen the local muslims here try deceive people about their reaction to 9/11 so I have trust issues.
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Meh. I have no love for Muslims either, but I understand that one of their gripes was the "americanisation" of the world and the way those dastardly Yanks kept wandering around trying to convert everyone to democracy and Christianity and all that rubbish. Then George W came along and pretty much declared war on Islam as a whole, which probably didn't do anything to convince Muslims that the Yanks were nice. And so on.

A mosque on ground zero would be a very, very potent statement of reconciliation. I doubt it would erase the harm that the War on "Terror" has caused over the past 9 years, but it's a start.

And anyway, a mosque is just a place for members of a certain religious group to worship. It's not a symbol of terrorism.
 
grayston said:
Meh. I have no love for Muslims either, but I understand that one of their gripes was the "americanisation" of the world and the way those dastardly Yanks kept wandering around trying to convert everyone to democracy and Christianity and all that rubbish. Then George W came along and pretty much declared war on Islam as a whole, which probably didn't do anything to convince Muslims that the Yanks were nice. And so on.

A mosque on ground zero would be a very, very potent statement of reconciliation. I doubt it would erase the harm that the War on "Terror" has caused over the past 9 years, but it's a start.

And anyway, a mosque is just a place for members of a certain religious group to worship. It's not a symbol of terrorism.
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Agreed.
So far so good.
Half Muslim President and even this... http://www.news24.com/Entertainment/CelebNews/ArabAmerican-wins-Miss-USA-20100517
 
grayston said:
Meh. I have no love for Muslims either, but I understand that one of their gripes was the "americanisation" of the world and the way those dastardly Yanks kept wandering around trying to convert everyone to democracy and Christianity and all that rubbish. Then George W came along and pretty much declared war on Islam as a whole, which probably didn't do anything to convince Muslims that the Yanks were nice. And so on.

A mosque on ground zero would be a very, very potent statement of reconciliation. I doubt it would erase the harm that the War on "Terror" has caused over the past 9 years, but it's a start.

And anyway, a mosque is just a place for members of a certain religious group to worship. It's not a symbol of terrorism.
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The people of Japan, South Korea, West and then East Germany, Taiwan, Georgia, Poland, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, Hungary, Rumania, Albania, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, various ex-Soviet Republics (some mentioned already), etc. all wanted democracy and these are the people who thank America. My Japanese friends still say that if it weren't for Hiroshima they'd be a North Korea now.
Let's not forget the people of Nazi occupied Western Europe and the people liberated from Japanese occupation who ultimately won their independence.

Of course some apartheid supporters will disagree.

As for forcing Christianity onto other people, that has never been a missive of the US government. Care to cite a US .gov site where it's been the mission of the US foreign policy to enforce Christianity. They really Chritianised Japan and Taiwan.
 
grayston said:
Meh. I have no love for Muslims either, but I understand that one of their gripes was the "americanisation" of the world and the way those dastardly Yanks kept wandering around trying to convert everyone to democracy and Christianity and all that rubbish. Then George W came along and pretty much declared war on Islam as a whole, which probably didn't do anything to convince Muslims that the Yanks were nice. And so on.

A mosque on ground zero would be a very, very potent statement of reconciliation. I doubt it would erase the harm that the War on "Terror" has caused over the past 9 years, but it's a start.

And anyway, a mosque is just a place for members of a certain religious group to worship. It's not a symbol of terrorism.
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You mention that George W "declared war" on Islam, despite the fact they said many times that Islam is not the enemy, its the terrorists who claim to act on behalf of Islam who are the enemy. The very people who accuse George W of "declaring war" on Islam are then guilty of equating Islam with terrorism, which is false.
 
PeterCH said:
The people of Japan, South Korea, West and then East Germany, Taiwan, Georgia, Poland, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, Hungary, Rumania, Albania, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, various ex-Soviet Republics (some mentioned already), etc. all wanted democracy and these are the people who thank America. My Japanese friends still say that if it weren't for Hiroshima they'd be a North Korea now.
Let's not forget the people of Nazi occupied Western Europe and the people liberated from Japanese occupation who ultimately won their independence.

Of course some apartheid supporters will disagree.

As for forcing Christianity onto other people, that has never been a missive of the US government. Care to cite a US .gov site where it's been the mission of the US foreign policy to enforce Christianity. They really Chritianised Japan and Taiwan.
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And lets not forget the US Marines who liberated the Phillipines which is now probably the largest Muslim country in the world. No shoving Christianity down their throats.
 
zippy said:
And lets not forget the US Marines who liberated the Phillipines which is now probably the largest Muslim country in the world. No shoving Christianity down their throats.
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Philippines is a mostly-Catholic country yet the US marines were mostly Protestant. The Philippines were colonised by the Spanish- hence the Catholicism there.

Note that Indonesia is the most populous Muslim country.
 
zippy said:
You mention that George W "declared war" on Islam, despite the fact they said many times that Islam is not the enemy, its the terrorists who claim to act on behalf of Islam who are the enemy. The very people who accuse George W of "declaring war" on Islam are then guilty of equating Islam with terrorism, which is false.
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Well, he did. He said it was a war against "radical" Islam. Why not a war against radicals? Or terrorists in general? By bringing Islam into it he (possibly inadvertently) turned the whole business into Us vs Them with God-fearing Christians like himself on one side, and Muslims either being radicals or sympathetic to radicals on the other side.

And by looking at some of the responses in this thread, you can see exactly how effective THAT bit of bullshíte was.
 
grayston said:
Meh. I have no love for Muslims either, but I understand that one of their gripes was the "americanisation" of the world and the way those dastardly Yanks kept wandering around trying to convert everyone to democracy and Christianity and all that rubbish. Then George W came along and pretty much declared war on Islam as a whole, which probably didn't do anything to convince Muslims that the Yanks were nice. And so on.

A mosque on ground zero would be a very, very potent statement of reconciliation. I doubt it would erase the harm that the War on "Terror" has caused over the past 9 years, but it's a start.

And anyway, a mosque is just a place for members of a certain religious group to worship. It's not a symbol of terrorism.
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I understand your point of view and I could almost agree with it. But the state of Islam around the world is a complete mess. Just about every major armed conflict in the world involves Islam. Islam still has a long way to moderate itself and to reform itself. The way I see it, Islam is mostly incompatible with western concepts like freedom of speech, basic human rights (woman) and freedom of expression. Even supposedly moderate muslims in atheist Sweden are still violent at the end of the day because of their religion. I take what I see in Sweden with what I see in the rest of the world and mix it with my own personal experiences here in the Eastern Cape in South Africa. I dont buy the muslim sales line. I dont see enough real reform or want of reform. Take old aqua_lung. Clearly of Muslim decent but he claims to be an "atheist". He is happy to belittle Christianity but goes all Bin Ladin if you mention Islam. Now this is a moderate "atheist" muslim".

It just seems to me Muslims like playing the blame game like the ANC do today, but are not prepared to moderate their own beliefs thereby giving the huge extremist faction in its folds a very big skirt to hide under. Its like Muslims have taken a long trip to denial and still not realized its not just a river in Egypt. They can blame Bush, the Colonials.. whatever... but the fact of the matter is they are just as guilty of most things as any other culture, and perhaps one day when they accept responsibility for their actions things will progress... but I know thats not going to happen any time soon.

To me right now.. putting up a mosque next to this attack site is like putting up a shrine to Hitler in Auswitch.
 
w1z4rd said:
I understand your point of view and I could almost agree with it. But the state of Islam around the world is a complete mess. Just about every major armed conflict in the world involves Islam. Islam still has a long way to moderate itself and to reform itself. The way I see it, Islam is mostly incompatible with western concepts like freedom of speech, basic human rights (woman) and freedom of expression. Even supposedly moderate muslims in atheist Sweden are still violent at the end of the day because of their religion. I take what I see in Sweden with what I see in the rest of the world and mix it with my own personal experiences here in the Eastern Cape in South Africa. I dont buy the muslim sales line. I dont see enough real reform or want of reform. Take old aqua_lung. Clearly of Muslim decent but he claims to be an "atheist". He is happy to belittle Christianity but goes all Bin Ladin if you mention Islam. Now this is a moderate "atheist" muslim".

It just seems to me Muslims like playing the blame game like the ANC do today, but are not prepared to moderate their own beliefs thereby giving the huge extremist faction in its folds a very big skirt to hide under. Its like Muslims have taken a long trip to denial and still not realized its not just a river in Egypt. They can blame Bush, the Colonials.. whatever... but the fact of the matter is they are just as guilty of most things as any other culture, and perhaps one day when they accept responsibility for their actions things will progress... but I know thats not going to happen any time soon.

To me right now.. putting up a mosque next to this attack site is like putting up a shrine to Hitler in Auswitch.
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Aqua claims to be of Jewish descent.
 
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