MWEB Uncapped ADSL - Official Q & A

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Hi Mweb

Not sure if this was posted somewhere, but can you please some details on the shaping and/or times that it is being appplied?

I experienced 30% shaping on my 4MB line for news services last night( yes i am getting that occasional linux distro Sunday evening at 9pm :) ) , and i would like to know if that was normal.

I would have thought that over the weekend ( especially Sundays), shaping should be less severe. If this was a maintenance period ( ie updating rules and/or re-routing traffic), can we maybe arrange that such maintenance be made aware to us users?
A link to this maintenance updates will be highly appreciated.
This will reduce the amount of complaints etc and improve trust in the product.


Thank you

+1
 
My Download speeds have been terrible lately i have seen a MAX peak at 100kbps and that doesnt last long, maybe an hour at most, where as i remember seeing 300kbps...ah the good old days. MWEB? was cutting? im hoping you dont end up like the other ISPs having a dozen eggs in a half dozen box? :(
 
Experiencing a similar situation as the members above.

News servers going at approx 100 kb/s, whether day/night/weekend
 
Same here, I have only been with MWEB since Saturday, saw speeds between 120kbps and 160kbps!
 
Hi.

I just signed up with mweb on friday 30th April. (My Birthday :D) *wanted to give myself good internet for my birthday present*

i have to admit that there were times over the weekend that the speeds were down. (15 - 20kbps)

is there any reason for this?

is seacom still having issues or is it a technical problem.

i've just switched from Afrihost because of speed limiting. i am on 384kbps and i don't leave my connection open all the time. but i can easily do 30 GBs a month. Afrihost was limiting after 15GB So if mweb is starting to throttle as well then i won't be staying long.

Please advise.

Kind Regards.
 
Hi Mweb

Not sure if this was posted somewhere, but can you please some details on the shaping and/or times that it is being appplied?

I experienced 30% shaping on my 4MB line for news services last night( yes i am getting that occasional linux distro Sunday evening at 9pm :) ) , and i would like to know if that was normal.

I would have thought that over the weekend ( especially Sundays), shaping should be less severe. If this was a maintenance period ( ie updating rules and/or re-routing traffic), can we maybe arrange that such maintenance be made aware to us users?
A link to this maintenance updates will be highly appreciated.
This will reduce the amount of complaints etc and improve trust in the product.


Thank you

Please try to get over the concept that business users consume most of the bandwidth in SA. That's so Y2K!

A million users sitting at home downloading images, videos and MP3s at 4Mbps, will need a lot more bandwidth from international sites, than a million office workers who upload numbers and text to mostly local databases. In case you have forgotten, most people who work, produce things, not consume bandwidth from 8am to 5pm.

The people who are using bandwidth are people like youselves (plural), who think that off-peak times nobody else is doing any downloads, so therefore everything can go faster. Sorry, wrong! The only times when there is little usage is between midnight and 6am, as any traffic graph will show:
JINX: http://stats.jinx.net.za/
TENET-SEACOM: http://monitor.net.tenet.ac.za/cacti/graph_view.php?action=tree&tree_id=6&leaf_id=874

End of rant (nothing personal...)
 
Hi All,

I'll try to answer some of the main questions raised collectively.

With respect to download speeds, I'd like to re-state the specification of our consumer (Connect) packages specifically in the area of shaping, for those who missed earlier explanations ...

MWEB’s Uncapped packages are subject to protocol based priority shaping whereby traffic passing through our network is segmented into priority and non-priority classes which are handled differently. The priority class comprises of protocols related to the most popular (taken for granted) Internet access activities such as browsing and email, with the non-priority class being made up of protocols related to bulk downloading such as torrents, news (nntp) , Rapidshare etc.

The principal aim of MWEB’s shaping is to ensure that priority traffic always provides a premium user experience. This is achieved by always providing the priority class with the necessary capacity on our network to match the prevailing demand, with the non-priority class receiving any excess capacity above that required to service the priority class. Since demand for priority traffic fluctuates during the day, so too does the availability of excess capacity for bulk downloading, with highest probability of peak download performance being in the late evenings/early mornings. It should be noted however, we provide no line speed guarantees for bulk downloads and the provision of capacity for this purpose will be in a manner that ensures there is no detrimental impact to our network as a whole.

Besides the priority and non-priority classes, there are certain protocols which are neither prioritised nor de-prioritised and are thus treated in a neutral manner. Gaming and business related protocols would fall into this category, therefore performance for these types of activities should be reasonable, but on a best effort basis.

In short, our shaping allows MWEB to provide its customers with unrestricted access to the Internet in a fair, balanced manner without having to resort to any form of per-user performance throttling based on some arbitrary GB consumption threshold.


Taking the above into account, per-user performance for bulk downloading will be detrermined by the size of non-priority BW pool which is ultimately governed by the total capacity of our network. Our network is due for its next scheduled capacity upgrade, but as usual the timing of this is determined by the ability of our infrastructure providers to deliver on the sizeble quantity of capacity requested. If all goes well, you should see performance pick up in near future.

In regard to our news service, it has been under very heavy load lately, uncapped tends to raise the demand to new levels. It too is scheduled for some upgrades which should raise performance, however it must be noted that our news service is provided as an 'as is' convenience not forming part of our official service offering, thus no guarantees can be provided.

Hope this answers the main topics raised.

MWB.
 
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Hi MWEB,

Not sure if the following questions have been asked before, but I did not feel up to reading 170 pages of forum posts, so here goes:

I understand that certain protocols get priority but it would appear that MWEB totally misjudged the response they will get with the announcement of their uncapped packages (paraphrased from the only written feedback I have received from MWEB to date). What this means to me is that MWEB's current network is over-stressed even before we start downloading. As Gordon_R pointed out, the arrival of ADSL as an affordable consumer product has shifted the balance of users from business to home users. Also, if Mr Rudi Jansen's interview with TechCentral (http://www.techcentral.co.za/qa-with-mweb-ceo-rudi-jansen/13461/) is anything to go by, MWEB are seeing broadband internet as a catalyst for nationwide growth, growth which in turn will lead to an increase in the need for broadband internet.

This brings me squarly to the questions that nobody from MWEB has been able or have been unwilling to answer:

1. What are MWEB's expansion plans?
2. What is the timeline on MWEB's expansion plans?
3. Does MWEB have a share in the new cables landing in the next 12 months? EASSy and WACS?
4. Is the current network limitation (the 20:1 contention ratio confirms that the network is at the moment insufficient) a MWEB internal network issue or an internation bandwidth issue?
5. Would MWEB be open to providing a 'Heavy User Uncapped' package for R600-R700 which provides unshaped traffic from 20:00 to 06:00?

I am concerned as I was enjoying ~400 kB/s downloads from international news servers in the first 3 or 4 days of April and then it all went south. Granted, there was a break in Seacom which lead to backup channels being used for international bandwidth, but Seacom was officially repaired on Friday 30 April afaik, and I am still struggling to get more than 130 kB/s. Even on HTTP and HTTPS traffic I only touch-touch 320 kB/s over weekends.

That said, I have it on good authority that MWEB's uncapped packages are the best on the market currently. Some other ISP's (IS resellers) who offer uncapped have recently implemented a soft-cap on their uncapped packages of about 15GB per month (again, this is what I was told from a user of one of these other ISP's, so I have no public quotes to confirm this). However, being one of the best packages on the market does not mean it is perfect and in my opinion, providing users with full-speed (or no less than 2/3 of full speed) user experience irrespective of protocol or port is the best way to make everyone happy and provide a closer to perfect service.

Malaia

*EDIT: MWEB already answered (sort-of) question 2 but I would like longer term plans as well if possible
 
Please try to get over the concept that business users consume most of the bandwidth in SA. That's so Y2K!

A million users sitting at home downloading images, videos and MP3s at 4Mbps, will need a lot more bandwidth from international sites, than a million office workers who upload numbers and text to mostly local databases. In case you have forgotten, most people who work, produce things, not consume bandwidth from 8am to 5pm.

The people who are using bandwidth are people like youselves (plural), who think that off-peak times nobody else is doing any downloads, so therefore everything can go faster. Sorry, wrong! The only times when there is little usage is between midnight and 6am, as any traffic graph will show:
JINX: http://stats.jinx.net.za/
TENET-SEACOM: http://monitor.net.tenet.ac.za/cacti/graph_view.php?action=tree&tree_id=6&leaf_id=874

End of rant (nothing personal...)

True. After midnight RS usually goes up from 100KB/sec to >300KB/sec. MWEB's dynamic shaping in response to overall demand.
 
Hi All,

I'll try to answer some of the main questions raised collectively.

With respect to download speeds, I'd like to re-state the specification of our consumer (Connect) packages specifically in the area of shaping, for those who missed earlier explanations ...

MWEB’s Uncapped packages are subject to protocol based priority shaping whereby traffic passing through our network is segmented into priority and non-priority classes which are handled differently. The priority class comprises of protocols related to the most popular (taken for granted) Internet access activities such as browsing and email, with the non-priority class being made up of protocols related to bulk downloading such as torrents, news (nntp) , Rapidshare etc.

The principal aim of MWEB’s shaping is to ensure that priority traffic always provides a premium user experience. This is achieved by always providing the priority class with the necessary capacity on our network to match the prevailing demand, with the non-priority class receiving any excess capacity above that required to service the priority class. Since demand for priority traffic fluctuates during the day, so too does the availability of excess capacity for bulk downloading, with highest probability of peak download performance being in the late evenings/early mornings. It should be noted however, we provide no line speed guarantees for bulk downloads and the provision of capacity for this purpose will be in a manner that ensures there is no detrimental impact to our network as a whole.

Besides the priority and non-priority classes, there are certain protocols which are neither prioritised nor de-prioritised and are thus treated in a neutral manner. Gaming and business related protocols would fall into this category, therefore performance for these types of activities should be reasonable, but on a best effort basis.

In short, our shaping allows MWEB to provide its customers with unrestricted access to the Internet in a fair, balanced manner without having to resort to any form of per-user performance throttling based on some arbitrary GB consumption threshold.


Taking the above into account, per-user performance for bulk downloading will be detrermined by the size of non-priority BW pool which is ultimately governed by the total capacity of our network. Our network is due for its next scheduled capacity upgrade, but as usual the timing of this is determined by the ability of our infrastructure providers to deliver on the sizeble quantity of capacity requested. If all goes well, you should see performance pick up in near future.

In regard to our news service, it has been under very heavy load lately, uncapped tends to raise the demand to new levels. It too is scheduled for some upgrades which should raise performance, however it must be noted that our news service is provided as an 'as is' convenience not forming part of our official service offering, thus no guarantees can be provided.

Hope this answers the main topics raised.

MWB.

Thank you MWEB for the speedy response. i am happy with the package that MWEB is providing was just curious why the speeds have drastically changed since the dreaded seacom incedent. i understand the protocol based throtteling and agree with it totally with regards to having a stable network.

All i would like to know is have things changed in the protocol throtteling since the seacom incedent?
 
Hi MWEB,

Not sure if the following questions have been asked before, but I did not feel up to reading 170 pages of forum posts, so here goes:

I understand that certain protocols get priority but it would .......

I never really thought about this? Thanks for bringing this up. Would be great if MWEB can answer these
 
Please try to get over the concept that business users consume most of the bandwidth in SA. That's so Y2K!

A million users sitting at home downloading images, videos and MP3s at 4Mbps, will need a lot more bandwidth from international sites, than a million office workers who upload numbers and text to mostly local databases. In case you have forgotten, most people who work, produce things, not consume bandwidth from 8am to 5pm.

The people who are using bandwidth are people like youselves (plural), who think that off-peak times nobody else is doing any downloads, so therefore everything can go faster. Sorry, wrong! The only times when there is little usage is between midnight and 6am, as any traffic graph will show:
JINX: http://stats.jinx.net.za/
TENET-SEACOM: http://monitor.net.tenet.ac.za/cacti/graph_view.php?action=tree&tree_id=6&leaf_id=874

End of rant (nothing personal...)

//Rant on

I know Jinx and Tenet probably doesnt reflect actual usage on the mweb network.. but lets take it to be true.

It is a given that at least 90% of the uncapped users is still trying to download 24hours of the day(until they manage to saturate their requirements for the past 10 years of capped internet). This means their pc's is almost constantly requesting the data. Mweb routers currently then see this request and then assigns it to the un-prioritized pool, thereby causing the speeds we are experiencing. After hours(ie after 12am) they probably relax this and/or increase the size of the low priority pool
My problem with this is, is that should proper shaping be in place, we should have seen a constant line of usage all the time. certain percentage of this usage would then have been data(low priority) and the rest http/email (higher priority), pending the time of day.

I am going to provide an example of one of our customers (which can be taken into context with south African internet). We supply satellite data links for customers, and then provide interface systems for those customers to allow providing a constant level of service.
One customer have a hub station in Capetown, which serves as the "source" (Europe if compared with Seacom/South-Africa). This hub station has a 512kbps link over satellite, which provides voice(lets compare that to HTTP/Email in context) and data services(data stays data in context) to the remote. Data is allowed via a 512kbps ADSL circuit interfaced via a router at the HUB.
This link is also used to supply voice, since no other means of communication is available (except via very expensive satellite phones).
I then used the hardware available to me to give the guys a quality of service. Keep in mind that we have 20 okes sitting at the VERY remote site, so the possibility is/was very good that they will abuse the poor 512kbps internet link to death. I was able to split and prioritize traffic via prioirty, to allow the guys to make voice calls when required (lets compare this to opening an http page), and download data all the time without experiencing a constant limit based on the time of day.
This means that whenever i pull the statistics from our equipment i notice that the data traffic is utilizing the full capacity available 24hrs of the day. The moment i initiate a voice call to the customer(which takes ~30kbps for the first call and then 8kbps for the second/third calls), the data bandwidth is reduced to 470kbps,allowing the 30kbps of prioritized voice traffic to continue un-hurt. Once the voice call is completed (/http page opened when comparing), the system restores full capacity for the other non prioritized services.
I accomplish this via port prioritization (ie certain ports for the voice traffic classified as high), and other ports for data(in my case i just moved all unknown data to a lower priority.

Since this service (QOS) has been available on a lot of routers for a very long time, i am surprised to see this kind of limitation being implemented by MWEB. I understand an on-the fly calculation of requirements will take alot of routing power etc, but i am sure Cisco has a long time released routers capable of this kind of power.

I certainly hope that we will see proper QOS in the future, which i don't think should be that difficult since they have proven already that they can shape all downloads to death. I am sure alot of Cisco boffins out there can confirm this possiblity.

/Rant off
 
Since this service (QOS) has been available on a lot of routers for a very long time, i am surprised to see this kind of limitation being implemented by MWEB. I understand an on-the fly calculation of requirements will take alot of routing power etc, but i am sure Cisco has a long time released routers capable of this kind of power.

I certainly hope that we will see proper QOS in the future, which i don't think should be that difficult since they have proven already that they can shape all downloads to death. I am sure alot of Cisco boffins out there can confirm this possiblity.

I was earlier reading the Wikipedia page on Quality of Service, and consumer ADSL package with its 'Best Effort' is actually the lowest possible rating (0/7) in terms of raw performance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_of_service

I can't answer your other concerns, but can speculate a bit. MWeb say they have 2 'pools' of bandwidth, but you can be sure that Business customers go right to the top of the list.

It is also likely that shaping is not done instantaneously (traffic is subject to 'spikes'), but on an hourly basis. The aim should be to average the total traffic in the range of 80-90% of capacity, not try to get 100% all the time, as you could do on a single router. The fact that most traffic goes via SEACOM and some via SAT-3 must make load balancing quite difficult.

I am sure MWeb will try to improve things over time, but this is a rapidly changing environment, as thousands of (heavy) users migrate in a short period.
 
<snip>
After hours(ie after 12am) they probably relax this and/or increase the size of the low priority pool
<snip>

My understanding is that they don't actively change anything. As the load on prioritized protocols decreases, so the amount "left" for non-priority protocols will increase "automatically".
 
What this means to me is that MWEB's current network is over-stressed even before we start downloading.
Hi Malaia,

In general our network runs largely uncontended/uncongested with the exception of the non-priority (bulk download) BW pool. Here demand will always exceed avaliable/alloted capacity, its just the degree that varies depending on time of day and number of users actively downloading.

This situation will be exaggerated during the brief periods when new uptake and capacity expansion are out of sync, however as mentioned this should improve soon.

This brings me squarly to the questions that nobody from MWEB has been able or have been unwilling to answer:
Unfortunately there are limits to the level of detail I'm at liberty to disclose. I can say MWEB is continually investigating new product offering and ways of interconnecting our network to the greater Internet, however I dont have anything extra to add at this point.

PS: Our Seacom capacity is fully functional as before, the capacity upgrades in question are of a local nature.

MWB.
 
Thanks for clearing that up. so i gather that i will be able to stream you tube and other stuff to my pc throughout the month and download things at night without being limited to 7kbps..

If that's the case then i am a happy Mweb subscriber and you can expect no complaints from me. and i probably won't get further than 100 GBs month anyway as my line speed won't allow it. :)
 
Hi MWB,

Thanks for the reply. I would however be lying if I said I was not disappointed with the limited information you are allowed to divulge at this point in time. I was honestly hoping that MWEB might follow suit to the CPU/GPU manufacturers and reveal roadmaps spanning to at least 2012 for network upgrades, expansions and growth projections. I am so interested in this because in another interview (http://www.news24.com/SciTech/News/Internet-game-changes-for-SA-users-20100318) Mr Rudi Jansen makes it very clear that more is to come.
I do however not understand the need/concept of having two pools of bandwidth, unless the priority traffic is being routed through Seacom and the non-priority traffic is going via SAT-3 (or vice-versa). And even then I struggle to understand why the non-priority pool is shrinking (or at least it feels that way with more and more users jumping onboard) when you admit to the priority traffic pool having excess capacity. Afaik, MWEB pays for bandwidth (on Seacom atleast) and not actual traffic which means that sharing the excess capacity with the so-called non-priority protocols does not cost MWEB anything (again, not sure what your arrangement with Telkom is ito bandwidth).

Your news about the scheduled upgrade is rather exciting and I am looking forward to seeing the effects on my (and everyone else's) internet experience (yes, including the so-called non-priority traffic). I am also interested to see what packages MWEB might announce in the near future (if any). I am sure that most people on this forum would be willing to pay just that little bit extra to ensure decent speeds.

All the best to MWEB and thanks for making things interesting on the ISP side :) Now if only that monopolous, one-eyed monster that keeps on advertising about all the pretty new fibre it has put down would uphold it's side of the contract (I say contract because at the moment they are in breach of a network expansion contract they signed 2 years ago), we *might* be seeing internationally comparative broadband in the next year.

Malaia over and out *kgggk*
PS: news servers are priority traffic...for me :P

Now if only Telkom can explain to me why I had 540 internet sessions last month, I can stop worrying about having to reset dropped sockets and failed HTTP downloads...
 
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@Malaia
The ADSL market is exceptionally competitive at the moment and I can understand why MWeb is not willing to reveal any details about their future plans. Also, releasing any details creates an expectation from users, which, for any number of reasons, MWeb may not be able to fulfill in exactly the way indicated at a future point. Then accusations of false advertising will be flung, and MWeb will be required to "explain" why they didn't implement "X" exactly as they "said" they would.

If the non-priority pool is shrinking it is because usage of the priority protocol portion of the bandwidth cake increases as more users subscribe. Therefore, the size of the slice left over for non-priority protocols decreases. At least that's my understanding.
 
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Hi Malaia,

Unfortunately there are limits to the level of detail I'm at liberty to disclose. I can say MWEB is continually investigating new product offering and ways of interconnecting our network to the greater Internet, however I dont have anything extra to add at this point.

MWB.

I am sorry but this really irritates me. I think we are entitled to know more about the future of a product that we pay over R500/pm for.
 
I am sorry but this really irritates me. I think we are entitled to know more about the future of a product that we pay over R500/pm for.

Have you received equivalent information from DStv, your cell phone service provider or your bank? You've purchased a service now and the assumption is that the service will stay the same (what you've paid for) or improve. If it deteriorates, you have every right to complain. You can't expect MWeb to describe their short-, medium- and long-term strategies and business plans in a public forum.
 
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