Name and Shame: Unauthorised Debit Orders Thread

[entity17]

I do have an idea of how many transactions go through these systems. With that in mind I retract the statement about them being able to implement a solution in near zero time. BUT they are able to implement debicheck even if it will take some more time. They are also able to do validations for online purchases. And they are able to - before I even know about it - catch fraudulent transactions from a cloned card.

They are able to put protections in place so that no debit order is ever unauthorized. They have powerful computer systems and this additional customer authorization is a relatively small extra load. And if that's what they said they were doing and it would take another 1 to 2 years to put in place I'd actually be ok with that. But what they've said is "we will protect you within about a year from being debited by a legitimate company provided they opt in" which is the same as saying "we won't protect you from fraudulent debit orders."

I don't believe they take any financial risk. a) they have a legal means of recovering the funds from the receiving bank, transactions get reversed all the time for legitimate reasons and banks cooperate with one another on this, and b) they no doubt have insurance, or the receiving bank's insurance covers it. Additionally, this is the risk one takes on when one runs a bank. They have an obligation to protect the client from any fraud which isn't due to the client's negligence. This is why you're not protected if your phone is compromised and you allow someone to gain access to your online credentials. But you are if someone clones your card.

 

[entity17]

I feel the same as you but being in IT I know it is not easy changing a system. In the same breath I think more can be done that is why I am going to the PASA offices in Parktown Johannesburg to find out more and to maybe assist in investigation. Meantime everybody should sent complaints to [email protected], the more the better

I'm also in IT and I have a fair idea what's involved in adding additional customer verifications for a specific subsystem when such verifications are already implemented for other subsystems. It's not that hard. It certainly doesn't take many months unless your programmers are incompetetent (in which case the entire banking system would be likely to fail regularly, so I presume they have good programmers.) Sinbad's counter to my post is reasonable, however. The impact of changing it en masse quickly is something I had not considered. But from a coding point of view it's not that big a deal.

The fact is a workable solution to this problem exists and they're not doing it. They're putting a band aid on a deep cut. As said in my last post I'd be willing to give them time if they just said they were planning on fixing the problem properly.

I did send my complaint to PASA and I am with you in recommending everyone does. Once Nedbank supply me with further details of the debit order recipient I will be forwarding those to PASA as well.

 

[raynerb]

Logged into Capitec to check if any new scams went through, seeing as a lot of peeps got hit 02/11. Noticed that they have now activated the online debit order dispute system. RE Telkom theory, I EFT my payments with them.

 

[TheChamp]

Anyone getting the notification sms about these debit orders In advance? I do, for the second month now and I just have sit and wait for them to deduct the money and wait another day before I can reverse it.

 

[enerdude]

Fraudsters have the option of opting in, they don't have to, now tell me what self respecting fraudster would opt into a system that is going to make them lose money?

The idea is that when debicheck is fully in force it will be the only way to put debit orders through so all fraudsters will have to use it.

The other side of the coin is that some people reverse legitimate debit orders to improve their cash flow so that is also why the banks dont just jump when a customer phones in to say they never authorized the debit order.

Still I think when such a high volume of debit orders are disputed by clients the banks should approach the intermediary e.g. pasa to block the particular company from putting through any more debit orders.

What I'm also wondering in this case if this NCONNUPS15_xxxx also provide legitimate services because then the bank / prasa will have to differenciate which is legitmate reversals (complaints) and which are not.

 

[enerdude]

Sinbad's counter to my post is reasonable, however. The impact of changing it en masse quickly is something I had not considered. But from a coding point of view it's not that big a deal.

This is what I meant - the big picture. Not just the coding - the volume and getting all the parties involved in the system to change it , provide training etc etc

 

[entity17]

The idea is that when debicheck is fully in force it will be the only way to put debit orders through so all fraudsters will have to use it.

Except the FAQ on their site and what PASA has said in the media contradicts this. The FAQ says a company can still do regular debit orders without opting in (only early debit orders will require opt in, i.e., the ones that go off first before people get a chance to empty their accounts, which probably does happen just as reversals of legitimate debit orders is a clear problem) and then this:

'“Consumers will still be able to dispute and reverse these debit orders. In time, DebiCheck may be extended to all debit orders,” said Volker.' (emphasis mine)

From https://mybroadband.co.za/news/bank...it-orders-what-debicheck-can-and-cant-do.html

I do hope they change their minds and say it will eventually be extended. Perhaps the apparent increase in fraudulent transactions will convince them.

Anyway, I think we're mostly in agreement and I'm letting my disappointment at the current situation color my view. I'm just a little more pessimistic than you about the end result. But overall I think debicheck is a good thing and can be extended to be a full solution.

 

[TheChamp]

It took close to five years to arrive at this point, I wonder how long is it going to take to have a properly functioning Debicheck? Another 5 years perhaps?

 

[lord-of-war]

Also had this $#@& debit order gone off my account on 02/11.

 

[Nydiap]

I just had the same deduction is there anyway to trace who is deducting these funds, all the bank gave me is an address 3 Simmons Street, this is so frustrating that people can just deduct from your account without any authorization

 

[ruth25]

I was also debited an amount of R99 from Ups Nconnups154238
called the company number that standard bank provided me with it doesn't even ring.
I never authorized this debit order this is so wrong.

 

[Cowley]

Same thing happened to me this weekend. Same debit order. I am a FNB client.
Just stopped and reversed it now.

Any of you recently provided your banking details to any companies?
I changed my insurance last week and it is very interesting that this debit order went off at the same time as my new debit order with Outsurance. Could be some naughty consultants or QA department listening to calls at Outsurance collecting our bank account details and all our other details. What do you think?

 

[raynerb]

What bothers me most, is that the reference number and date does not remain the same. So a stop order would be futile IMO. Also, moving your money to a sub-account might work only if the debit order goes off on a day when you do not need money in your normal account for other debit orders. There is no way to completely mitigate your risk.

 

[Tish83]

Hi everyone. Same happened to me on Friday evening 2/11/2018, with ABSA- ACB DEBIT- EXTERNAL UPS NCONNUPS15 for R99. Contacted ABSA this morning to reverse it and after waiting 30 minutes was told by the consultant that it would cost R30 to reverse it regardless of whether I went into the bank or whether I did it online via internet banking. She also informed me that to STOP further debits, I would have to complete a form in the bank??? and for every debit reversal I would be charged R30, which is madness! She did reverse the debit and I immediately received an sms "RETURNED SETTLEMENT-ACB DEBIT REVERSAL,UPS NCONNUPS15. I logged onto STOP it. Not sure if I would still have to go in then since absa online banking has an option for reversal and stopping it??? VERY FRUSTRATING

 

[RailRoad]

HI All, also at FNB with same happening. I changed my insurance last week to Outsurance and Discovery Insure. I am sure there must be some connection to a company for all these debits. Please can everyone state companies that they provided banking details to in the last month. Thanks!

 

[RailRoad]

Another thing... my reference is Ups Nconnups15_88615. I saw some earlier comments of references around 89000. This is not alot of people which makes me believe that banking details was leaked from one company. Surely it cannot be that difficult to determine the common denominator.

 

[llewxam]

Can u believe Absa fraud department tell me they cant help me...what utter crap...am closing my bank account today.

 

[Cowley]

Also Outsurance??? Hmmmm...this is pissing me off!

HI All, also at FNB with same happening. I changed my insurance last week to Outsurance. I am sure there must be some connection to a company for all these debits. Please can everyone state companies that they provided banking details to in the last month. Thanks!

 

[Cowley]

I have decided to take my savings account away from Absa end of the month. They have given me terrible service over the last month. Both their insurance department and the banking department.

Can u believe Absa fraud department tell me they cant help me...what utter crap...am closing my bank account today.

 

[Jings]

Same thing happened to me this weekend. Same debit order. I am a FNB client.
Just stopped and reversed it now.

Any of you recently provided your banking details to any companies?
I changed my insurance last week and it is very interesting that this debit order went off at the same time as my new debit order with Outsurance. Could be some naughty consultants or QA department listening to calls at Outsurance collecting our bank account details and all our other details. What do you think?

Do you perhaps know which service provider the insurance company uses for debit order deducts?

It's quite a coincidence these deductions come after SASSA's contract with CPS is terminated. Mind you, previously SASSA had to block unauthorised debits deducted from grants, which didn't work.