O2 DOWN: UK mobile network crash

[Gordon_R]

This thread may be of interest to you guys.


https://mybroadband.co.za/forum/thr...heck-that-your-clock-is-set-correctly.838033/

Precisely what I have been saying! If the clock on your GPS is incorrectly set, and the initial location and velocity are unknown, it can take a very long time to generate an ephemeris, before the receiver can even begin trying to lock onto the satellites.

Many phones use a variety of tricks, such as base station triangulation (even in flight mode), or the last known location is saved in memory, in order to speed up the process. Only when it goes wrong, do people realise how complex the whole procedure is.

 

[krycor]

People often forget that Ericsson is one of the biggest software companies out there albeit their product is hardware based and sold as a hardware sale.

Hrm.. wonder what Swedish guy will get fired as they do their major product work at home and only resale and minor customization in abroad markets.

 

[Lupus]

Did you read the previous comment? How do you think the position recorded by the GPS receiver is communicated back to the control center doing the tracking?

You do realise that GPS has been around a long, long time right? There have been standalone gps units before there were cellphones with maps on it. You can get a basic gps tracking unit for R200 that has no data on it. How do you think car trackers worked?
You do not need data for GPS. Cellphones technically don't need it either. But it helps for speeding up triangulation and of course more real time updates, a standalone gps takes longer to lock on but once it's locked on it can track you within a few metres of your location. You can even get more accurate speed results from a gps unit.
Did you like sleep through the mid to early 2000s when GPS became available to the public? Or do you somehow think this tech only became available with smartphones?
I was using a gps unit to navigate around the UK in 2008, all I needed was the map pack from the supplier.
We probably now use the cellular network for transmitting back as it's there now and it'll be more real-time. But before hand?

 

[saor]

You do realise that GPS has been around a long, long time right?

Yes, but how is that gps data being sent to a control center? That's what's being questioned, not whether gps can work without a phone signal.

Your reply covers two points: GPS unit and satellite.
The question is about 3 points: GPS unit, satellite and a 3rd party receiving that data remotely.

 

[Gordon_R]

You do realise that GPS has been around a long, long time right? There have been standalone gps units before there were cellphones with maps on it. You can get a basic gps tracking unit for R200 that has no data on it. How do you think car trackers work?
You do not need data for GPS. Cellphones technically don't need it either. But it helps for speeding up triangulation and of course more real time updates, a standalone gps takes longer to lock on but once it's locked on it can track you within a few metres of your location. You can even get more accurate speed results from a gps unit.
Did you like sleep through the mid to early 2000s when GPS became available to the public? Or do you somehow think this tech only became available with smartphones?
I was using a gps unit to navigate around the UK in 2008, all I needed was the map pack from the supplier.

Are you a Dave clone? Can you read any of the previous comments?

I am fully aware that stand-alone GPS has been around for a long time. In this thread we are specifically talking about A-GPS on cellphones. Some models do not have the fall-back option, so if the network is corrupted the receiver will fail.

 

[Lupus]

Precisely what I have been saying! If the clock on your GPS is incorrectly set, and the initial location and velocity are unknown, it can take a very long time to generate an ephemeris, before the receiver can even begin trying to lock onto the satellites.

Many phones use a variety of tricks, such as base station triangulation (even in flight mode), or the last known location is saved in memory, in order to speed up the process. Only when it goes wrong, do people realise how complex the whole procedure is.

That's not what you've been saying. You've been going on about how you need data for GPS which as standalone you don't.
For real-time updates, tracking and such yes but for stock standard GPS you don't need it. Even Google maps can be run without data.

 

[Lupus]

Yes, but how is that gps data being sent to a control center? That's what's being questioned, not whether gps can work without a phone signal.

Now it would use the cellular network. But the original argument was over gps using data. The original doesn't need it at all.

 

[saor]

Now it would use the cellular network. But the original argument was over gps using data. The original doesn't need it at all.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something then.

It’s one thing for the driver of a vehicle to know where he is, but it’s quite another for the company tracking him.

That still doesn't need data. GPS tracking uses the same tech as standalone gps devices. A-GPS uses data to assist the GPS.

The whole thing started when someone mentioned the need to track the person using gps. This was never about a gps user in isolation. Or not?

 

[Lupus]

FYI, GPS doesn’t require a data connection...

This is the original that Dave said. Gordon R then went on a whole thing about how it does need data and and. Meanwhile Dave was saying GPS by itself doesn't need data. The other things on top probably do like real time tracking and such but the actual GPS doesn't.

 

[Spizz]

Now it would use the cellular network. But the original argument was over gps using data. The original doesn't need it at all.

Was this ever in question or have you just got the wrong end of the stick?

I came into the thread when Hamish mentioned he uses a GSM network for tracking and you are going on about a Garmin or something similar in your car not needing data.

Crossed wires much?

 

[Lupus]

Are you a Dave clone? Can you read any of the previous comments?

I am fully aware that stand-alone GPS has been around for a long time. In this thread we are specifically talking about A-GPS on cellphones. Some models do not have the fall-back option, so if the network is corrupted the receiver will fail.

All Dave originally stated is that GPS does not require data. You then went on and on, he is correct GPS doesn't need data. The other things on top do. Also the GPS should still work as AGPS is still a gps radio but with the ability to use the cellular network to assist lock on and real time tracking. Without the data connection it should just take longer to lock on.
So this guy who said he lost out on the interview cause he had no maps is talking crap. Go to WiFi hotspot then. Download the maps you need and use it in offline mode, I've done that numerous times across 5 phones since 2011 at least.

 

[Spizz]

All Dave originally stated is that GPS does not require data. You then went on and on, he is correct GPS doesn't need data. The other things on top do. Also the GPS should still work as AGPS is still a gps radio but with the ability to use the cellular network to assist lock on and real time tracking. Without the data connection it should just take longer to lock on.
So this guy who said he lost out on the interview cause he had no maps is talking crap. Go to WiFi hotspot then. Download the maps you need and use it in offline mode, I've done that numerous times across 5 phones since 2011 at least.

I think you’re being a bit unfair. UK maps for “Here” are 1.2gb. I was there two weeks ago and downloaded them for off line navigation.

So maybe a bit more time consuming than popping into Starbucks when you are travelling and on a schedule.

 

[Lupus]

I think you’re being a bit unfair. UK maps for “Here” are 1.2gb. I was there two weeks ago and downloaded them for off line navigation.

So maybe a bit more time consuming than popping into Starbucks when you are travelling and on a schedule.

You don't have to download the entire map, you download the area you need. Those come in at 150 megs maybe 200 if that.
Or for just in case you download it at home the night before? Who leaves something like an important job interview to chance? I'd have an offline GPS unit in case well, maybe an old map book. This new generation sigh

 

[Spizz]

You don't have to download the entire map, you download the area you need. Those come in at 150 megs maybe 200 if that.
Or for just in case you download it at home the night before? Who leaves something like an important job interview to chance? I'd have an offline GPS unit in case well, maybe an old map book. This new generation sigh

Everyone over there is just used to having free and plentiful data at their finger tips. I’d imagine your average Joe would just open Apple or Google maps and follow the directions.

I’m usually organised for these kind of things, but I have to admit arriving at Heathrow a couple of Monday mornings ago and having to be at Indonesian embassy at 11.15 in central London had me a bit flustered. I’d got a new phone and used a back up to set up new one, but that unfortunately never transferred over my previously downloaded maps and I didn’t check before leaving.

Schit happens to all of us I guess

 

[Gordon_R]

All Dave originally stated is that GPS does not require data. You then went on and on, he is correct GPS doesn't need data. The other things on top do. Also the GPS should still work as AGPS is still a gps radio but with the ability to use the cellular network to assist lock on and real time tracking. Without the data connection it should just take longer to lock on.
So this guy who said he lost out on the interview cause he had no maps is talking crap. Go to WiFi hotspot then. Download the maps you need and use it in offline mode, I've done that numerous times across 5 phones since 2011 at least.

You are still missing the point, which I have made several times:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS

Some A-GPS devices do not have the option of falling back to standalone or autonomous GPS.

The fact that your device does not have this problem, is besides the point. You are offering the same fallacy as Dave: It works for him, so therefore everyone else must be an idiot.

 

[Lupus]

You are still missing the point, which I have made several times:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS



The fact that your device does not have this problem, is besides the point. You are offering the same fallacy as Dave: It works for him, so therefore everyone else must be an idiot.

Name one AGPS device that doesn't allow you to switch back to GPS? Under location settings you can set it to just use device. Like attached pic, there it will only rely on the GPS radio. Assisted GPS is just that it's there to help the GPS for faster and better real-time updates.

 

[Gordon_R]

Name one AGPS device that doesn't allow you to switch back to GPS? Under location settings you can set it to just use device. Like attached pic, there it will only rely on the GPS radio. Assisted GPS is just that it's there to help the GPS for faster and better real-time updates.

@Ockie posted a link to his previous experience: https://mybroadband.co.za/forum/thr...heck-that-your-clock-is-set-correctly.838033/

Edit: So you expect 30 million O2 customers to know that A-GPS has failed, and go into a settings menu which they are unfamiliar with?

 

[Lupus]

@Ockie posted a link to his previous experience: https://mybroadband.co.za/forum/thr...heck-that-your-clock-is-set-correctly.838033/

With regards to syncing to the satellites with a wrong time. I've seen that happen on non GPS devices as well and standalone gps that haven't turned on for awhile and the time and date is way off.

 

[Gordon_R]

With regards to syncing to the satellites with a wrong time. I've seen that happen on non GPS devices as well and standalone gps that haven't turned on for awhile and the time and date is way off.

Then we agree on that respect, which is what I was trying to dell Dave.

The details of the O2 failure are not clear, but if their network time got messed up, it would have exactly the same effect that Ockie describes in his thread: Vodacom NTP server failed in 2016: https://mybroadband.co.za/forum/threads/vodacom-network-time.837769/

I have been having issues with my phone GPS not getting a lock, and when it does get a lock at times, navigation is very inacurate. I took my phone outside now and the gps activated and got a lock almost immediately. Can a inacurate clock on your phone affect GPS at all

 

[Geoff.D]

That still doesn't need data. GPS tracking uses the same tech as standalone gps devices. A-GPS uses data to assist the GPS.

As a few of us have seen on this forum, you have to be accurate about what you say about technology because there are many out there that actually DO know the technology works, even if they check their facts before posting.
NO STANDALONE GPS WILL EVER WORK WITHOUT THE EPHEREMIS DATA.

If you still don't want to believe that then read the above sentence until you do. ALL standalone GPS get that data off the satellite network directly at a very very slow rate, that works best IF you remain stationary while the initial setup takes place.
IF a stand alone GPS has been off for a long to me AND the date and time info is also missing WILL take even longer to get through the initial startup process.

The ONLY saving grace is that newer models store the data in backup memory, which the older devices did not have, helps speed up the process. The setup time is long IF for some reason the EPHEREMIS data and the timing on your standalone unit is lost.