Official Tri-Nations 2010 Thread

[Ronjay]

So while we are pointing fingers and making accusations about what some people said and what others said, why is it that I am reading a couple of reports that make a fair bit of mention about the Boks tactical kicking game not being up to scratch... now is it not the role of the flyhalf, especially one who is supposedly the best to ever set foot on a rugby field, to dictate territory, and play, with his tactical kicking?

Personally, I hate the kicking game that SA has used over the last few years. They have been very fortunate with it but at the same time the kick is always 50/50 ball in my book. And tactical kicking wasn't the problem, it was the woefully flat and unimaginative running game that was the problem. That and the inability to hold on to the ball in the ruck. Of course a lot of BS calls from the ref didn't help, and NZ do happen to have McCaw, the master at the ruck, who also happens to be invisible to ref's when he does anything. Nah, it's not the kicking that's pissing me off, it's the coach picking a side week after week that is made up of okes that are by far not the best in the country. And remember slow ball from the base would kill any good tactical kicking anyway. The AB's had all the time in the world in the first half to close down on everything. When January went off their was an improvement but still pretty flat.

 

[LancelotSA]

Personally, I hate the kicking game that SA has used over the last few years. They have been very fortunate with it but at the same time the kick is always 50/50 ball in my book. And tactical kicking wasn't the problem, it was the woefully flat and unimaginative running game that was the problem. That and the inability to hold on to the ball in the ruck. Of course a lot of BS calls from the ref didn't help, and NZ do happen to have McCaw, the master at the ruck, who also happens to be invisible to ref's when he does anything. Nah, it's not the kicking that's pissing me off, it's the coach picking a side week after week that is made up of okes that are by far not the best in the country. And remember slow ball from the base would kill any good tactical kicking anyway. The AB's had all the time in the world in the first half to close down on everything. When January went off their was an improvement but still pretty flat.

As much as you might hate kicking it is an aspect of the game that needs to be mastered if a team wants to be successful. It only becomes 50/50 when the tactical kicking is not up to scratch, which was my point. Linked to that tactical kicking is some more imaginative distribution of the ball. We have a serious lack of imagination and ingenuity coming from our 9 and 10.

Please name some of these players that you are referring to and then who you feel they should be replaced with.

 

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

What do people think of Lambie instead of Kirchner? Too young? Obviously F. Steyn would be the ideal candidate but that isn't going to materialise anytime soon.

I personally like Lambie's running game; his kicking game is a bit off at the moment [well from the bits I watched this evening although obviously he wouldn't kick when in the Bok side] but he's only 19/20 if I recall. The Boks also didn't chase some of their kicks today... sometimes only the kicker was chasing his own kicks.

 

[Alan]

What do people think of Lambie instead of Kirchner? Too young?

I personally like Lambie's running game; his kicking game is a bit off at the moment [well from the bits I watched this evening] but he's only 19/20 if I recall. The Boks also didn't chase some of their kicks today... sometimes only the kicker was chasing his own kicks.

Well they say if you're good enough, you're old enough

 

[Ronjay]

As much as you might hate kicking it is an aspect of the game that needs to be mastered if a team wants to be successful. It only becomes 50/50 when the tactical kicking is not up to scratch, which was my point. Linked to that tactical kicking is some more imaginative distribution of the ball. We have a serious lack of imagination and ingenuity coming from our 9 and 10.

Please name some of these players that you are referring to and then who you feel they should be replaced with.

Well, for a start your number 9 is the biggest wally of them all. Frankly I've said it all along that Januarie is not the best player in that position. He is slower then my gran and that means that the flyhalf is getting the ball to late to imploy some of that tactical kicking you are talking about. Believe me though, the ball carried 25 meters is far more secure then the ball kicked 25 meters. Why? Because the ball carried has secured 100% possession and the ball kicked has not. As for the lack of ingenuity from 9 and 10, well it wasn't just them. At times it looked like the guys were just passing for the sake of passing without any attempt to draw, absolutely no creation of spaces.

 

[Pitbull]

The biggest problem we have tacticaly is that Fourie is injured.

This now leaves the couching team with a choice. Play the second best scrummie or play the worst one in SA history. Now if they can't get that right it means the coaching staff are failing. That is it, nothing more nothing less. You can point out any thing wrong with the game plan and it will come back ot the 9-10 combination. The flyhalf is only as good as the ball he gets from the scrummie.

Now Lance wants to turn this into another Ruan vs Mornè thread again

Fact is the lack of vision by the selection staff and coaches is the problem. We have the players we're just not fielding the correct ones when needed. And it's about time PDV gets the flack for his team. January? de Villiers on wing? No Dewald Potgieter?

 

[sand_man]

Fact is the lack of vision by the selection staff and coaches is the problem. We have the players we're just not fielding the correct ones when needed. And it's about time PDV gets the flack for his team. January? de Villiers on wing? No Dewald Potgieter?

De Villiers started out as a wing and played SA U18,20,21 on the wing so not so far fetched seeing him there again. Coach has given him 2 opportunities and he has failed twice but hardly a lack of vision. 1st choice right/left wings are all injured, Odwa, JP, Nokwe. De Villiers is probably 4th choice on the wing. Personally I would give Gerhard Van den Heever a run but we very thin in that department as we are in the flyhalf and fullback departments. Morne gets injured there is zero back-up!! Zane isn't an international fullback... yet... as for Dewald Potgieter vs Louw, they both worthy. Louw is a fetcher and does a huge amount of poaching at the breakdown much in the Brussouw/Mcaw mould. I've thought he has been playing pretty well up till NZ.

Anyway rugby is a team sport. To attribute the losses to De Villiers, January and Louw is a bit short sighted. We can thank the ill discipline of Bakkies and Danie too don't you think? The inability of John to find his jumpers in the 1st test, the inability of our locks to control the kick offs in the 2nd test. What about all the missed tackles on Dagg resulting in his try?? Not the coaches fault..

EDIT: Hell we can even blame the ref!!! Allain had a shocker!!!!!

 

[APoc184]

Oh well.
De Villiers has been suspended for two weeks.

Should open the door for Aplon or Hougaard to stake a claim on the 14 jersey.

 

[sand_man]

Oh well.
De Villiers has been suspended for two weeks.

Should open the door for Aplon or Hougaard to stake a claim on the 14 jersey.

JOKING??!!! Suspended for??? The tackle on Ranger??!!!! MOTHER DUCKERS!!!! Has Ranger been suspended too??!!! For his ducking shoulder charge on Zane??!!

 

[APoc184]

JOKING??!!! Suspended for??? The tackle on Ranger??!!!! MOTHER DUCKERS!!!! Has Ranger been suspended too??!!! For his ducking shoulder charge on Zane??!!

Yip. for the lifting tackle on Ranger.

Please note how the judicial officer took into account that De Villiers had a clean disciplinary record before this incident but still suspended him for two weeks. HAHA.

 

[Pitbull]

De Villiers started out as a wing and played SA U18,20,21 on the wing so not so far fetched seeing him there again. Coach has given him 2 opportunities and he has failed twice but hardly a lack of vision. 1st choice right/left wings are all injured, Odwa, JP, Nokwe. De Villiers is probably 4th choice on the wing. Personally I would give Gerhard Van den Heever a run but we very thin in that department as we are in the flyhalf and fullback departments. Morne gets injured there is zero back-up!! Zane isn't an international fullback... yet... as for Dewald Potgieter vs Louw, they both worthy. Louw is a fetcher and does a huge amount of poaching at the breakdown much in the Brussouw/Mcaw mould. I've thought he has been playing pretty well up till NZ.

Anyway rugby is a team sport. To attribute the losses to De Villiers, January and Louw is a bit short sighted. We can thank the ill discipline of Bakkies and Danie too don't you think? The inability of John to find his jumpers in the 1st test, the inability of our locks to control the kick offs in the 2nd test. What about all the missed tackles on Dagg resulting in his try?? Not the coaches fault..

EDIT: Hell we can even blame the ref!!! Allain had a shocker!!!!!

I'm in no way blaming the players. I am saying PDV failed.

Now as you mentioned, why play de Villiers on wing when you have vd Heever.... Again, this is PDV's fault.
If Mornè is injured you still have Ruan Pienaar so that is covered. But you need Frans Steyn in the team if you are going to lose Mornè. Since Ruan can't kick long range. Now PDV alienates Frans and now he has 1 kicker in the team. If Mornè is seriously injured we're fk'd. Louw is by no means a bad player, far from it. But the turnovers we're losing I can only think has something to do with our fetchers. Schalk Burger is not what he used to be. He is a force on the field for sure, but that is worthless unless he wins us some turnovers. I will have Potgieter in the team, purely so I can put him on if the turn overs is not coming our way. I have never seen a player put his body on the line for a ball on the ground like Potgieter (Schalk used to no idea what happened)

Now let's touch on the Scrummie quickly. I for one (personally) would have Kockott on the field in place of January. Yes, he has authority issues and what not. But he is the second best scrummie in SA currently after Fourie. Why field anyone but him? January does not belong in the Bok side. Not now, not tomorrow.... never. I would play Bola instead of January (That shows how crap January is).

We need to have the players that showed their hands in the Super14 to at least be in the group of 30 players. They don't even need to be fielded. But picking the same 22 players game after game after game even if they fail as badly as they did the last 2 weeks..... come on.

 

[Pitbull]

Oh well.
De Villiers has been suspended for two weeks.

Should open the door for Aplon or Hougaard to stake a claim on the 14 jersey.

vd Heever should be there. I also agree on Hougaard but I think vd Heever is better.

 

[sand_man]

I'm in no way blaming the players. I am saying PDV failed.

Now as you mentioned, why play de Villiers on wing when you have vd Heever

JDV would have been the safer option. I don't think it was a bad selection at all, the experience, intercept etc etc but JDV hasn't shown any form since going over seas. He is still a tremendous player just lacking confidence.

If Mornè is injured you still have Ruan Pienaar so that is covered.

In the current squad Ruan is cover at 9 and Butch cover for 10.

But you need Frans Steyn in the team if you are going to lose Mornè. Since Ruan can't kick long range. Now PDV alienates Frans and now he has 1 kicker in the team.

Frans chose to play abroad AFAIK. Not sure PDV had much to do with that decision. Probably Rudolph Streauli's/Plumtree's doing. There has been a mass exodus from Natal over the last 2 seasons. We desperately need Frans back in the squad, that's for sure..

Schalks not a fetcher, he is a big hitter and a ball carrier. Not his job to win ball on the ground.

Now let's touch on the Scrummie quickly. I for one (personally) would have Kockott on the field in place of January. Yes, he has authority issues and what not. But he is the second best scrummie in SA currently after Fourie. Why field anyone but him? January does not belong in the Bok side. Not now, not tomorrow.... never. I would play Bola instead of January (That shows how crap January is).

We need to have the players that showed their hands in the Super14 to at least be in the group of 30 players. They don't even need to be fielded. But picking the same 22 players game after game after game even if they fail as badly as they did the last 2 weeks..... come on.

Neither Kockott or Bola are 1st choice for their provincal Super14 XV either. Surely Ruan should be starting at 9. I agree January isn't our 2nd best scrumhalf...

Anyway I don't believe whole sale changes to the starting XV is a solution. I also don't believe PDV can he held responsible for Bakkies and Danies brainfarts... Gary Gold is the weak link in that coaching staff. Ever since he's been in charge of the forwards, our scrums have gone backwards.. He's a chump!!!

 

[APoc184]

http://www.rugby15.co.za/2010/07/jean-de-villiers-given-a-two-week-suspension/

Bok winger Jean de Villiers has been handed a two-week ban for a dangerous tackle on All Black winger Rene Ranger in Saturday’s Tri-Nations test in Wellington.

Jean de Villiers was cited after he lifted Ranger in a tackle. Referee Alain Rolland deemed the tackled not dangerous and let play continue, but De Villiers was informed of his citing a few hours after the match.

Judicial officer Dennis Wheelahan took into consideration De Villiers’ clean record over his previous 60 tests and decided that a two-week ban is fitting.

De Villiers will now miss next week’s test against the Wallabies at Brisbane’s Suncorp Stadium.

This will open the door for Gio Aplon or Francois Hougaard to stake a claim on the No14 jersey.

 

[Mephisto_Helix]

Some quotes from the Tribune ..... can't say I disagree -

What is it about wearers of the Springbok number 4 jersey? Does stupidity come as standard with this shirt?

Morne Steyn had enough ball to vary his game and direct his side but he lamely hoisted a succession of up and unders or other kicks that troubled hardly anyone. They lacked precision and sunning and were meat and drink to the NZ defence.

Gurthro, CJ and BJ are all on a similar level and they do not frighten quality test props.

The complete failure of Spies to live up to his huge reputation thus far on the trip has to be a major concern. NZ have targeted him shutting down the space he needs to operate. He has struggled to look anything other than ordinary. Is he just a Highveld bully, a player only able to excel on hard grounds at home behind a dominant Bulls pack?

Questions should be asked of the coach. His decision to break up the Fourie/De Villiers midfield to accommodate Olivier has been exposed as absurd. With the Bulls Olivier looks excellent but the step up in class has exposed him.

 

[sand_man]

Yip, more or less correct on all counts... Too many areas of concern and the net result is 2 disappointing and rather severe losses...

 

[cybershark]

Two different sets of ruck rules in force again today

 

[The_Pumpkin_King]

how many times dd they stop piennar from getting the ball and they're offside!!! Surely that's a yellow card?

 

[Rosaudio]

The reffing..

 

[The_Pumpkin_King]

Ai, springboks are not doing themselves any favours either, this match looks done and dusted