OMG I hate arrogant tanks

[Pornolio]

This is from last nights raid...

And in all honesty... your tanks must have nuts like watermelons when your raid dishes out dps like this :

http://img99.imageshack.us/i/wowscrnshot010310204357.jpg/

I dont know how they keep it together... honestly ! respect !

 

[zippy]

.....and don't ask the warlock to soulshatter, I wonder if some of them know about the spell even.....

soulshatter needs work. That cooldown is evil. Last week it was on cooldown, I was on 120% and my curse of doom was going to blow in 5 seconds. I debated whether to put curse of weakness on to cancel, but decided that I needed a pee anyway.

 

[Tinuva]

Bleh wanted to reply last night, but then the power here in South East Pretoria (at least Constantia Park, at the hill) went out.

Er... Don't you think those two are related?
You didn't hold aggro on him; he MD'd to you to give you extra threat and FD'd when he got close to pulling aggro from you. With MD and FD both on a 30sec cooldown it makes it much easier now days for us hunters not to pull aggro.

Trust me there is no way in hell you can hold aggro on a hunter who out-gears you this much. Impossible.

I was in a heroic pug a while back where the tank was grossly undergeared (greens and blues). However, he had the stats he needed to tank the instance and the skill too, he was very good. This however didn't help and I had to DPS with Aspect of Viper on all the times (50% less DPS) because no matter what I tried otherwise, I'd pull aggro in a second.

Actually, a warrior knows when a rogue tricks and a hunter MD, and he did not for a fact. I was also looking at omen the whole fight and he was pretty much on my ass the whole time, even exceeded my tps at one point but not passing the 120% which point the boss changes target. I am not that clueless dude, but thanks for trying to look out for that.

Ok... to give some clarity on why **certain** hunters suffer so badly on threat.

A MM hunter with ArP items and the correct items in his kit, will pretty much sit and feed the tank.

Lemme explain. Cynicster hit the nail on the head with his post.

If a undergeared tank is holding aggro on a 8/9k dps hunter, its purely because the hunter is wasting his GCD's, timing MD'ing shots to the tank, holding back on nuking, and spamming FD at every possible cooldown. Hunters are like cars rolling down a hill... you have to get the rotations flowing and get into the cycle of nuking, build up speed and keep it there... to stop your cycle and backoff on nuking, because his threat is climbing to aggressively, is a serious dps loss. Once your dots are running and you need to know when to refresh them without breaking your timing to MD to the tank, means you pretty much start over on your rotations.

Now hunters with Grim toll or Mjorn runestone will know exactly what I am talking about. Those two trinkets proc so easy, its usually within the first opening shot or second opening shot that the thing goes. Now, once that thing runs, I am on 1400 Arp which is 100% armor ignore. Every single autoshot / physical damage shot like aimed shot, hits like a truck on steroids.
The first few seconds in a pull is a NIGHTMARE for any MM hunter.

Multishot is another evil necessity... you have to use it as a MM arp hunter.

I know you guys say pulling aggro is no excuse, but honestly its hard if the tank is not very well geared up, to aid his threat generation. 99% of the time you will see the tanks are not using the proper threat enchants, since they are pretty confident they can keep aggro.

Look I agree with you, but you do 16k dps, in which case I am not there yet to stop you, but in my case I can tell you the hunter was a noob. I have seen very few hunters using MD in heroics, though there are the rare ones that do, and you can see the effect.

Generally though, a warrior with endless rage can hold more aggro than a similar gear DK/Pala tank, mostly because they then can spam as much as they want. Where as a DK/Pala are bound to cooldowns runes and mana that can very much run out.

This is what both of you missed, because I couldn't afford to take a screeny while in-fight.

I On bosses I have seen their aggro surpass mine but somehow the boss stays with me.

That is, to have the boss/mob switch target, the new target must be at 120% aggro of the boss/mob's current target.

 

[Oculate]

I rarely see a Mage Iceblock or a pally bubble...they just die and blame the healer or Tank...

Slacker dps ftl

I usually outgear most tanks when doing random hc's Iceblock, Mirror Image and Invis are always on CD

 

[Cynicster]

Actually, a warrior knows when a rogue tricks and a hunter MD, and he did not for a fact. I was also looking at omen the whole fight and he was pretty much on my ass the whole time, even exceeded my tps at one point but not passing the 120% which point the boss changes target. I am not that clueless dude, but thanks for trying to look out for that.

1) New MD in 3.3 does not show up on person targeted, so if the hunter put it on you you won't know about it.
2) http://www.wowwiki.com/Aggro

Drawing Aggro

1. Exceeding the threat level of the mob's current target by 10% while within melee range of the mob.
2. Exceeding the threat level of the mob's current target by 30% while outside melee range of the mob.​

Guess you're still clueless...

 

[S7wede]

The above is correct and is also a nightmare for tanks. Please pay attention to the bold parts that say outside of melee range. Now the problem with mages and hunters in the new heroics, is that when they AOE, they are now normally standing on top of the mobs. This doesn't bode well for any tank when the 10k DPS mage is standing face to face with several monsters and decides he wants to show off his dps, while the tank has only minor AOE.

 

[Skurm]

Found the solution to aoe aggro last night. Took my new Unholy dps spec, put on my tank gear, and blitzed through an instance. If I get a few seconds to lay down dnd and spread my diseases around, AoE dps cannot pull aggro. It's awesome. For heroics -as a DK anyway - all you really need is a bit of HP, to be crit capped and to use your defensive cooldowns intelligently. If you have the gear, you don't need a full on tank spec. Reckon this is one area DK's have aleg up on the other tank classes - i don't know if a Paladin could pull that off in Ret spec or if a Warrior could do that in Arms or Fury.

 

[w1z4rd]

I love druid tanks...I think after I have finished kitting my shammy and have finished leveling my Paladin... I am going to make a carebear.

 

[J0n0]

i don't know if a Paladin could pull that off in Ret spec or if a Warrior could do that in Arms or Fury.

I thought about that before, but arms spec doesnt enable me to equip a shield. Aggro in aoe could be a problem, but ill try it out in a random with my trusty two handed axe.

I love druid tanks...I think after I have finished kitting my shammy and have finished leveling my Paladin... I am going to make a carebear.

They make awesome tanks, but I don't fancy them much. Maybe if they made the bear look like an actual tank and not like a cuddly teddy bear I would have bothered with it.

 

[S7wede]

Carebears are fun yes, and it's always nice knowing that to do decent DPS, all you have to do is change form. However like a warrior they require rage to pull off decent TPS and with only 1 real decent AOE threat building skill (Intimidating Roar) they are also subject to losing aggro from time to time.

Often its in the first 5-10 seconds of any mass pull where snap-aggro can get the better of you. Most of the High AOE dps classes like mages, hunters and rogues can dish out an enormous ammount of damage in only a few seconds while it takes you quite a bit longer to build aggro on those same mobs.

 

[J0n0]

It does take a few seconds (3-5), to build aggro in a mob if you just run in. Its called intimidating shout, and you have thunder clap, cleave, Enrage as well as Shockwave. Aoe tanking with warriors is hard work, but that's what makes it much more fun and if youre on your toes as you should be with a tank, youll taunt that stray back into the mob the second you see him leave.I play the game for a good challenge. My warrior gives me just that.
About the rage issue, in the talent trees you have things that help generate more aggro. You also dont just hop into a mob and stand there to build aggro. Best bet is to use enrage, gives you 40% aggro, as well as charge, that tops you up to 100%. Not to mention giving you a few yards lead before all the others catch up. So warrior tanks complaining about not building aggro when going into a mob or fight, needs to learn a little more about their chars abilities.

 

[Fayera]

I don't have rage problems with a warrior, I just have problems on mobs with high DPS like Mages and hunters, they pull aggro kinda fast, thinking of changing my tanking build to maybe do more DPS.

Druid tanking is kinda hard for me, the hardest class out of the tanking classes. Boss fights is easy, mobs is the problem and group taunt is on a 3min CD ^_^

 

[J0n0]

yeah, the ranged dps classes tend to aoe immediately then do their pew pew thing, which tends to push the aggro overboard on that target they started to pew pew at. As a tank, dps isnt your biggest worry, your worry is threat. I've seen some hybrid dps/tanking builds though but didnt bother to look much into it. I don't have the gold to waste on messing around with epic gems etc.

I find it strange that you struggle with aoe tanking on a druid. The last two Toc's I tanked in, I tanked the bosses and the druid took the adds each time and kept them very well. As well as the randoms I joined we get mostly druid tanks, and they do well with mobs in there as well. :s

 

[boswald]

I was healing Mana Tombs last night and I have to give me 2c worth.

I am getting so annoyed with arrogant DK tanks who think they are untouchable until you don't heal them. I was never allowed to get mana and then got moaned at for whiping or getting the tank killed.

There are some really good tanks out there who actually look at the healers mana before attacking and snaps to those guys but personally I have noticed L60 - L68 DK tanks think they are God. Higher up in the levels they seem to learn that even DK tanks need a healer sometimes

You also get tanks that seem to be able to take plenty of damage and not die. This guy took damage like a Warlock trying to tank. If I did manage to get some mana it would not last very long anyway.

That said, he landed up leaving as soon as we killed the boss and that boss did not drop the item he wanted and he got replaced with a Warrior tank and he was awsome

 

[Fayera]

J0n0, I'm mainly tanking with my warrior, Kinda new on my Druid tank, still playing with roations and what to cast 1st and who to stack and so on, I just struggle when the DPS open fire without me getting swipe of to gen rage, then I can not taunt back to me.

I just like a tank with a shield ^_^ Druids would look really nice if when you go bear form you would look like an armored bear...not the same as at level 10.....

 

[d3th_n1gG4]

Heh, I had a dk tank last night apologise for running out of my range (was on my priest), almost fell off my chair

 

[Tinuva]

1) New MD in 3.3 does not show up on person targeted, so if the hunter put it on you you won't know about it.
2) http://www.wowwiki.com/Aggro


Guess you're still clueless...

You are right, it doesn't show up as a buff/debuff, but it does make an animation over the character strangely enough.

On point 2, alright you have me there, but using 120% as a general rule always work for me to make sure things don't go south. Most melee characters can tank a mob for 1 second in which time I catch on to the mob. I hate running after mobs so looking at 120% for ranged is a good rule to generate some extra threat on that mob to ensure it doesn't run away. Taunting as it turns around is a last resort only for me.

 

[Tinuva]

Heh, I guess I wait too much again for healers. They always complain and say "pls just go", even when on 30% mana. I really do not care about dps;ers mana, they always seem to get on fine, except at a boss fight I will probably wait.

I also wait in HoL for the whole group to be ready before the second boss where you need to pick up all the adds that respawn quick, so that I don;t have to go back a second time to pick them up.

 

[Oculate]

I am getting so annoyed with arrogant DK tanks who think they are untouchable until you don't heal them. I was never allowed to get mana and then got moaned at for whiping or getting the tank killed.

I had a similar problem last night with a DK in Nexus normal

So i equipped a shield and did a better job tanking as fury :wtf:

 

[Cynicster]

You are right, it doesn't show up as a buff/debuff, but it does make an animation over the character strangely enough.

From 3.3 both the MD animation and buff are on the Hunter only and not the targeted party member.
Therefore you wouldn't've noticed if the Hunter MD'd you unless you were watching his buffs or looking at his toon instead of the mobs you were tanking...

On point 2, alright you have me there, but using 120% as a general rule always work for me to make sure things don't go south. Most melee characters can tank a mob for 1 second in which time I catch on to the mob. I hate running after mobs so looking at 120% for ranged is a good rule to generate some extra threat on that mob to ensure it doesn't run away. Taunting as it turns around is a last resort only for me.

Incorrect, as a precaution one should always use threat reducing abilities (or stop DPS) before getting to 100% threat even if there is the 10%/30% threat safety net. The reason being that abilities like Feign Death and Vanish (possibly others too) have a far greater chance of being resisted once you go over 100% threat.
Also, you never know when you're going to crit like a mafaka which could result in an instant surge of threat far greater than 10% which at 120% means you are now the tank whereas at 80% or so you're still watching someone else taking in the face.