Outa to appeal e-toll judgment

Garyvdh said:
This has been explained to you numerous times.
Gauteng Road users are actually paying for your roads.
And yet, here you are again, trolling as usual.
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As shown above, the WC contribution to treasury is more than it receives. So no, we don't need Gautengs money
 
DJ... said:
Personally I agree with the MBUF method. It is the only sustainable recovery mechanism, taking into account the realities of modern life. We're not in the 60s anymore - we don't need 60s solutions. MBUF is ideal, but its implementation needs to be deeply scrutinised, and subjected to analysis in terms of current economic and social conditions. This wasn't done in SA to be honest. Van Niekerk based his MBUF proposal on a similar proposal from the US, in fact he pretty much verbatim plagiarised it and transposed it onto SA conditions. That is not the level of investigation we should be dealing with.

In principle I have no issue with MBUF, but its adoption in e-tolling in Gauteng is atrocious, transparent as a block of wood, and shrouded in far too many questionable dealings to be considered worthy of accepting. On these basis' alone, you should be on Outa's side. Bear in mind that they are not proposing a fuel-levy alone. They have a few proposals on the table that are hybrid models that are viable. Their levy proposal also recovers the money in a less risky time-frame so it also does have merit to a degree, but the precedent should not be set at levies alone. That is not their only proposal. What they are trying to figure out is the most ideal method to legally object to the system, but that argument won't necessarily reflect their core objections entirely...
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Thanks, that was interesting
 
JStrike said:
As shown above, the WC contribution to treasury is more than it receives. So no, we don't need Gautengs money
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So the WC and Gauteng are actually subsidising the rest of the country.
Thanks for confirming that for us.
 
DJ... said:
Does it in any way change your stance on Outa?
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It does, however they should focus on getting MBUF correct, rather than suggesting solutions where where we have to pay for Gautengs roads.
Getting MBUF correct, that I can get behind
 
JStrike said:
It does, however they should focus on getting MBUF correct, rather than suggesting solutions where where we have to pay for Gautengs roads.
Getting MBUF correct, that I can get behind
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They cannot get MBUF correct because they are not privy to the data. Sanral won't give them access to the raw data as they claim it is proprietary. Also, why is it Outa's responsibility in the first place? This is Sanral's task, and all Outa are trying to prove is that Sanral did it incredibly poorly, and possibly criminally. They're not MBUF consultants, and certainly aren't being paid to do so. Also bear in mind that performing such a deep interrogation of the system would be an incredibly lengthy process...
 
marine1 said:
This just shows why we as a nation will never get anywhere, we should as a whole country be going mad over this
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I thought you boycotted the marches (on some cut off your nose to spite your face reasoning about COSATU)? Wouldn't participating in the marches be the place to show your madness?
 
R13... said:
I thought you boycotted the marches (on some cut off your nose to spite your face reasoning about COSATU)? Wouldn't participating in the marches be the place to show your madness?
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Cosatu combined the marches into multiple subjects. It was ludicrous. Labour brokers and e-tolling have buggerall to do with each other. They were playing the political game...
 
R13... said:
I thought you boycotted the marches (on some cut off your nose to spite your face reasoning about COSATU)? Wouldn't participating in the marches be the place to show your madness?
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Ok let me try explain it to you, clearly you dont see what happened.
Your beloved COSATU combined Labour Broking and the march, they hijacked it twice, that 2 times do you understand that?
Now why must I support a corrupt yes corrupt organisation like COSATU?
They are liars and tried to pull the wool over peoples' eyes.
They are also largely responsible for majority of labour issues and unrest in SA.
 
DJ... said:
Cosatu combined the marches into multiple subjects. It was ludicrous. Labour brokers and e-tolling have buggerall to do with each other. They were playing the political game...
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The last one where they clogged up the highways was tolls only. Even the ones where you say they included labour broking, the tolls got headlines and the protesters carried anti toll placards
 
JStrike said:
I agree with your objections. But until the people that oppose e-tolling start proposing (firmly and clearly) an alternative that doesn't result in those of us in the WC paying for it, I, and many of us here, will oppose Outa
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I cannot speak on behalf of OUTA, but in general the people proposing a National fuel are not proposing that the WP road users should pay for the upgraded Gauteng roads. Instead we realize that there are current cost for the upgraded roads in Gauteng and future cost for the desperately need upcoming upgrades in WP, KZN, and EC and pretty much everywhere else that there is a MASSIVE backlog of road maintenance. What we want is to make sure that those costs are settle in the most efficient manner possible, with the least possible out of pocket cost to us ALL !! And that it would be nice to possible fixing the missing ring fencing around the current fuel levies, which has in part resulted in us being in this situation. As the fuel levy (to my understanding) currently goes in to the national treasury, we have no idea how much of our road maintenance money is being used to upgrade certain ‘houses’ instead of fixing roads.

Simply said... I do not want the people in the WP to pay for roads in the province where I live, rather I want us in SA to paid for OUR combine road upgrades which WILL be taking place. I.E. You pay for your provinces road upgrades that are coming and for me to my provinces road work which has been completed... But that we paid for it in the most cost effective collective manner where we do not all individual get ridden with inflated cost because we are so busy shouting at each other to stay off their grass.

How else did you think that the national roads overhaul that government wants to do as part in their multi-billion rand infrastructure overhaul / job creation that they are talking about is going to be paid for... the President clear stated that not all of the money would be coming from the fiscus. The majority of it will be coming directly from our pocket via their preferred E-tolling, and other methods of collection for other parts of the overhaul. And while I sure we all understand the need to invest in the countries future with an infrastructure overhaul. Should we the people that are going to pay for this overhaul, not at less try to make sure it is done in the most efficient manner with the less wastage of our money?

Once you realize the scope of the coming costs that we will all need to carry it is very simple maths to calculate the cost-saving of centralized fee collection versus distributed collection... Which I suppose I could elaborate if does not jump out at you the overhead cost of one company trying to track, support, and liaise with EVERY road user in the country. We are talking about setting up a new ‘company’ with almost similarly size and cost to SARS, instead of just using the current efficient distributed system that does not require additional tracking/support/specialized liaising/law enforcement/justice enforcement/device manufacture/device support/device replacement/call centers/social burden/gantry support/gantry maintenance/it systems/additional bank transact fees/process changes/changes in law/etc/etc... All of which are required costs which still excludes the ‘inflated cost’ as are un-separately from this system.

Again... the push against e-tolls is not a case of Gauteng road users wanting everyone to subsidise local roads. We are not opponents in this case like you continuously state, but allies in protecting our collective interests.
 
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Garyvdh said:
No it wasn't, they even managed to drag the Lenasia Housing situation into that one.
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One of them made a comment that they won't tear down the tolls like the government did the houses in Lenasia. That was all. It was all about the tolls.
 
DJ... said:
You already do. And we pay for yours. Levies are not a good recovery mechanism though, but my objections to e-tolling are based on the inflated costs of the entire project and the corruption inherent in the system...
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Agreed, levies are not the best recovery method. Case in point, electric / hybrid car do not put less wear on the road than a conventional vehicle. It is therefore in fact unfair that users of this types of vehicles will not be paying their fair share in the simple formula that the fuel levy provides, i.e. quantity of consumption is either proportional to size of vehicle or distance travelled.

But instead of trying to go the complex route of trying to find a pen that writes in zero gravity (a fair and reasonable priced tolling system), let’s just use the pencil (fuel levy) that we have in hand at the moment...
 
kidcolt said:
Agreed, levies are not the best recovery method. Case in point, electric / hybrid car do not put less wear on the road than a conventional vehicle. It is therefore in fact unfair that users of this types of vehicles will not be paying their fair share in the simple formula that the fuel levy provides, i.e. quantity of consumption is either proportional to size of vehicle or distance travelled.

But instead of trying to go the complex route of trying to find a pen that writes in zero gravity (a fair and reasonable priced tolling system), let’s just use the pencil (fuel levy) that we have in hand at the moment...
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When electric/hybrid cars have made enough of an impact in Europe, let alone South Africa they can put a levy on electricity supplied for transport.

DJ, I agree the system is grossly over costed but alternative would you suggest?
 
Fudzy said:
DJ, I agree the system is grossly over costed but alternative would you suggest?
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A hybrid model based on various metrics already recorded by the department and Econometrix (who record and collate all vehicle sales). If you link the MBUF contribution to a median per car costing, you can subsidise the difference with the fuel levy and have marginal impact. You then review this costing balance on an annual basis linked to the number of hybrid and low-impact vehicles entering the market in the relevant areas, and actual data recorded by the systems over the course of the year. It is then linked to a more realistic actual costing that is transparent to the market, who therefore cannot complain when prices go up. This requires financial transparency on Sanral's part though, which is why they would object to this method.

My proposed method would mean that you'd pay per kilometre, but this payment would be quite minimal. Put basically, the shortfall based on MBUF, which can be easily forecast if you do the initial calculations, will be made up in the fuel levy. The fuel levy contribution will then reduce as more hybrids and efficient vehicles enter the market (a direct correlation and such an algorithm would take a week to put together), reviewed on an annual basis, incorporating data recorded over the year, which will give them even more accurate costings, based on actual usage.

This is the smart way to do things. They've gone for the shotgun approach, which in an ordinary business would 9 time out of 10, fail them. Unless of course you are a private company whose sole shareholder is government. In which case you can simply force this shotgun method on users. Sanral's method is the kind of strategy and recovery method that could only be dreamed up by a high school dropout...
 
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