Police Brutality Thread

IMO the issues within the SAPS may be a bit more complicated. Let's look at who is actually recruited into the SAPS and MP? Are these people that want to make a carreer out of being an officer of the law? Do they want to fight crime and lock up criminals and help the community? OR is has this become the ultimate slacker vocation? Drive around the whole day in your van, intimidate who you can, bribe who you can, but avoiding REAL trouble and REAL criminals who will just shoot your ass as soon as you hoist it out of the van? How many of you have been to your local "cop shop" recently and dealt with the constable behind the counter? Not only is there a massive language barrier but actual reading and writing skills are extremely limited, as is their knowledge of the law and of day to day admin procedures. BUT POPCRU makes damn sure that no-one is fired or suspended without pay. I have a very close family member in the SAPS and he has been for 13 years...the stories he tells scares the crap out of me. Yes there are good cops out there that take pride in their work, but they seem to be overshadowed by the "masses" that slack off and only use their jobs for their own benefit.
 
Fudzy said:
I'm sure there are, but as with everything else it's an exception not the norm.
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And i would never suggest that it was, but the issue for me is not that it is a norm, but that they occur at all. I fear that the issue has been clouded with extremisms and distractions. Lets clear it up a little.

1. Cops are not the heart of all evil.
2. There are corrupt cops.
3. There are thugs that have abused there positions.
4. Cops do have a bad reputation, the conduct of the few has tainted the rep of the whole.
5. The disciplinary system is obviously not working.
6. Redeployment is a major fail.

This is all that I am trying to say. The thuggery and corruption has to stop and all the calls of racism, all cops are evil, it happens everywhere, etc, is nothing but distraction from the issue. Politics, instead of action.
 
I have no time to respond EVERY SINGLE comments posted here. BUT .....

1) for more than 6000 complaints against SAPS, I don't think it is "isolated".
2) if you don't like what you see and what you read in here, please take your time to somewhere else. People have their personal feeling against SAPS, people have the RIGHT and FREEDOM to do so. You want to protect your useless SAPS it is also your freedom. I won't say you are "childish" / "lost your mind" / "idiot" / whatsoever either. Please respect the other people's rights.
3) the only function of SAPS is for insurance claim. I have more than 10 cases including one murder case, NOT A SINGLE ONE solved.
4) SAPS = criminals, it is my personal experiences, and I am watching it DAY BY DAY. Please, don't try to justify for what the other people own experiences. If you don't have the same experiences as mine, you are lucky, nothing else. Thousands of people have the same experiences!
5) ICD is same useless. If they don’t have any power to suspend a single misconduct policeman, I don’t know why they are here.
6) Cases against police always swap under carpet, don’t tell me you don’t know that.

@R/SGT
I am sorry you are working for SAPS. Be honest, change your job. You have no future for working with anc government. ;)
 
R/SGT said:
Agreed.

I would suggest that as soon as someone has such a negative experience they should report it to the ICD or go to the press
Click to expand...

some cases reported to ICD and laid charges, but disappeared afterward!!!!!!!!
read the news sites, how many police misconduct news you can find within a month?
 
1.
I have no time to respond EVERY SINGLE comments posted here. BUT .....

1) for more than 6000 complaints against SAPS, I don't think it is "isolated".
Click to expand...

So the fact that there are more than 154898 permanent police officers plus 64049 active reservists doesn’t factor into your thinking.
Also some of these cases are committed by civilian criminals posing as police officers and many of them involve the same officers so yes as part of the whole picture they are relatively isolated.

If this were not the case the every newspaper would be chock a block full every day with stories of police brutality just in their area.

2) if you don't like what you see and what you read in here, please take your time to somewhere else. People have their personal feeling against SAPS, people have the RIGHT and FREEDOM to do so. You want to protect your useless SAPS it is also your freedom. I won't say you are "childish" / "lost your mind" / "idiot" / whatsoever either. Please respect the other people's rights.
Click to expand...

I call them as I see them and I have been here defending my views for quite a bit longer than you, so your comment also applies to you.

I have and will never defend the individual members who cross the line and disgrace the uniform, but I will stand up for those 1000’s of officers who do serve their communities with honor and integrity.

Failing to do so would be dishonoring all my colleagues who have given their lives in the line of duty since 1994.

You attitude that the entire SAPS is rotten to the core, does not show the rationale of an intelligent adult, but rather reflects teenage angst.

3) the only function of SAPS is for insurance claim. I have more than 10 cases including one murder case, NOT A SINGLE ONE solved.
Click to expand...

It is not like CSI, usually there will be one poor overworked detective assigned to a case and he might be carrying a further 30 cases that have to be investigated before been submitted to the state prosecutors office.

I have been called to court for a case that was 2 years old, so this is an area that definatly needs a massive overhaul, they were also taking officers straight out of college giving them a two week course and the placing them in a detective unit.

4) SAPS = criminals, it is my personal experiences, and I am watching it DAY BY DAY. Please, don't try to justify for what the other people own experiences. If you don't have the same experiences as mine, you are lucky, nothing else. Thousands of people have the same experiences!
Click to expand...

Again just you, I guarantee that there are tens of thousands of people who have had normal interactions with the police and thousand’s who have had positive experiences from the police.

5) ICD is same useless. If they don’t have any power to suspend a single misconduct policeman, I don’t know why they are here.
Click to expand...

LEGISLATIVE MANDATE OF THE ICD
Section 53(2) of the South African Police Act (Act no 68 of 1995) stipulates that the Independent Complaints Directorate:
1) May mero motu or upon receipt of a complaint, investigate any misconduct or offence allegedly committed by a member, and may, where appropriate, refer such investigation to the Commissioner concerned;
2) Shall mero motu or upon receipt of a complaint, investigate any death in police custody or as a result of police action; and
3) May investigate any matter referred to the Directorate by the Minister or member of the Executive Council.
Section 18 of the Domestic Violence Act, Act no 116 of 1998 stipulates that failure by a member of the South African Police Service to comply with an obligation imposed in terms of this Act or the National Instructions referred to in subsection (3), constitutes misconduct as contemplated in the South African Police Service Act, 1995, and the Independent Complaints Directorate, established in terms of that Act, must forthwith be informed of any such failure reported to the South African Police Service. Unless the Independent Complaints Directorate directs otherwise in any specific case, the South African Police Service must institute disciplinary proceedings against any member who allegedly failed to comply with an obligation.

6) Cases against police always swap under carpet, don’t tell me you don’t know that.
Click to expand...

Yes it does happen occasionally, but I have been involved in and know of quite a few cases where officers have been successfully prosecuted.

@R/SGT
I am sorry you are working for SAPS. Be honest, change your job. You have no future for working with anc government.
Click to expand...

I wasn’t, I spent 8 years working as a reservist and it was for the most part very rewarding, I only left when my wife and I had our first child, which coupled with work takes up all my time.

If I could I would still be doing it.

Politics doesn’t really play a part at the level where the real work takes place, unless of course you happen to arrest a politician or a friend of a politician then **** hits the fan

Paraphrased but true

I have been where you fear to be.
I have seen what you fear to see.
I have done what you fear to do

So take this badge and take this gun.
Will you take it?
Will anyone?
And when you watch a person die,
And hear a battered baby cry.
Then so you think that you can be
All those things you ask of me?
 
R/SGT said:
So the fact that there are more than 154898 permanent police officers plus 64049 active reservists doesn’t factor into your thinking.
Also some of these cases are committed by civilian criminals posing as police officers and many of them involve the same officers so yes as part of the whole picture they are relatively isolated.

If this were not the case the every newspaper would be chock a block full every day with stories of police brutality just in their area.



I call them as I see them and I have been here defending my views for quite a bit longer than you, so your comment also applies to you.

I have and will never defend the individual members who cross the line and disgrace the uniform, but I will stand up for those 1000’s of officers who do serve their communities with honor and integrity.

Failing to do so would be dishonoring all my colleagues who have given their lives in the line of duty since 1994.

You attitude that the entire SAPS is rotten to the core, does not show the rationale of an intelligent adult, but rather reflects teenage angst.



It is not like CSI, usually there will be one poor overworked detective assigned to a case and he might be carrying a further 30 cases that have to be investigated before been submitted to the state prosecutors office.

I have been called to court for a case that was 2 years old, so this is an area that definatly needs a massive overhaul, they were also taking officers straight out of college giving them a two week course and the placing them in a detective unit.



Again just you, I guarantee that there are tens of thousands of people who have had normal interactions with the police and thousand’s who have had positive experiences from the police.



LEGISLATIVE MANDATE OF THE ICD
Section 53(2) of the South African Police Act (Act no 68 of 1995) stipulates that the Independent Complaints Directorate:
1) May mero motu or upon receipt of a complaint, investigate any misconduct or offence allegedly committed by a member, and may, where appropriate, refer such investigation to the Commissioner concerned;
2) Shall mero motu or upon receipt of a complaint, investigate any death in police custody or as a result of police action; and
3) May investigate any matter referred to the Directorate by the Minister or member of the Executive Council.
Section 18 of the Domestic Violence Act, Act no 116 of 1998 stipulates that failure by a member of the South African Police Service to comply with an obligation imposed in terms of this Act or the National Instructions referred to in subsection (3), constitutes misconduct as contemplated in the South African Police Service Act, 1995, and the Independent Complaints Directorate, established in terms of that Act, must forthwith be informed of any such failure reported to the South African Police Service. Unless the Independent Complaints Directorate directs otherwise in any specific case, the South African Police Service must institute disciplinary proceedings against any member who allegedly failed to comply with an obligation.



Yes it does happen occasionally, but I have been involved in and know of quite a few cases where officers have been successfully prosecuted.



I wasn’t, I spent 8 years working as a reservist and it was for the most part very rewarding, I only left when my wife and I had our first child, which coupled with work takes up all my time.

If I could I would still be doing it.

Politics doesn’t really play a part at the level where the real work takes place, unless of course you happen to arrest a politician or a friend of a politician then **** hits the fan

Paraphrased but true

I have been where you fear to be.
I have seen what you fear to see.
I have done what you fear to do

So take this badge and take this gun.
Will you take it?
Will anyone?
And when you watch a person die,
And hear a battered baby cry.
Then so you think that you can be
All those things you ask of me?
Click to expand...

Don't act like a die hard fan. If 6k of complaints are not enough to support the failure of SAPS, nothing I can say more. Or may be 300k a year of house breaking compares to 50mil of SA people, the percentage is still small, right? :rolleyes:

I suggest you have to watch the video I posted. It explains a lot of why and what the people perceptions of SAPS. I am not necessary to explain to you further if you understand it.
 
DreamKing;6072774]Don't act like a die hard fan.
Click to expand...

What die hard fan, I have been there and done that for 8 years, I can talk from experience


If 6k of complaints are not enough to support the failure of SAPS, nothing I can say more.
Click to expand...

Based on your logic then we could condemn all other professions with a similar number of failures? Teachers, medical etc


Or may be 300k a year of house breaking compares to 50mil of SA people, the percentage is still small, right? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Physic police stop crime before they occur, LOL the police for the most part react to a crime in progress or taken place.

Preempting criminal action is very difficulty especially housebreakings as the majority are crimes of opportunity. Crime intelligence does play a role buy that usually deals with organized crime.

To stop every crime you would need to put a policeman on every corner 24/7/365 and have 100% surveillance coverage. People don’t want this, so we do the best with what we have

I suggest you have to watch the video I posted. It explains a lot of why and what the people perceptions of SAPS. I am not necessary to explain to you further if you understand it
Click to expand...

I will watch it but I have spoken to many many people while on duty and have heard pretty much everything good and bad.

But you can’t generalize and say that your perception is that of the majority, looking at the comments on this site should prove that.

You have had unfortunate incidents involving the police which will influence your opinion, yet for you condemn the entire SAPS based on the actions of some officers is an emotional reaction and not a logical one
 
Cele defends heavy-handed cops
2011-05-10 10:35

Hilda Fourie, Beeld

Johannesburg - Police officers are recruited from a society in which 16 000 murders were committed last year.

That was why heavy-handed police officials are only a reflection of the society from which they come, National Police Commissioner General Bheki Cele said in Pretoria on Monday.

Referring to several instances where police officials were heavy-handed and where such actions led to people’s deaths, Cele said it was unavoidable that they would sometimes be rough.

"We are a violent society.

"We are in a society where a six-year-old child is raped by her uncle and stabbed seven times with a knife.

"We are in a society where a 70-year-old man is stabbed 72 times with a knife.”

"Our police officials are recruited in this society and work in this community."

Violence

Cele emphasised that people should not behave violently and lawlessly.

He referred specifically to protest marches that started legally but then got out of control. At the end of the protest march, buildings were burnt down, tyres were set alight, windows smashed and cars were damaged.

"Criminals have no respect for any law or human rights.

"Police officials have to face this every day. They have the right to protect themselves and those who are threatened by criminals.”

Cele said there were cases where police acted heavy-handedly, and they paid for that. But there were also cases where police were accused of heavy-handedness even though there was no proof of the allegations against them.

For example, police were accused earlier this year of having used live ammunition on protesters in Nyibe township near Ermelo when their rubber bullets ran out.

The live ammunition apparently claimed the life of Mphikeleli Solomon Madonsela, 41.

Cele said the Independent Complaints Directorate had not found any proof that the police had caused Madonsela’s death.

"People have the right to hold protests, but the violence on both sides - from the police and the people - has to be eliminated.

"Police sometimes use extra violence and sometimes it is unnecessary but no one has the right to burn down someone else’s house, school or even police station.”

Pressure

Professor Christiaan Bezuidenhout, a criminologist at the University of Pretoria, said most police officials were proud of their work and their uniform, “but there are a few rotten apples abusing their power”.

He believed the heavy-handedness of some police officials could be ascribed to the enormous pressure under which they worked and lived.

They saw traumatic scenes every day and shared these with their colleagues.

It led to a “transferred victim state”, in which police officials attracted one another’s trauma, said Bezuidenhout.

In addition, police officials transferred energy from one situation to the next without dealing with it.

"At some point there is a trigger, the police official reacts and it becomes police heavy-handedness, or the police official acts with a group, loses his uniqueness and identity and does things in a group which he never would have done if he was alone.

"Our violent society is a mirror of what is going on in the police. Yet take the police out of the society for 24 hours and there would be chaos,” said Bezuidenhout.
- Beeld
Click to expand...
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Cele-defends-heavy-handed-cops-20110510

read the comments...... interesting. :D
 
R/SGT said:
What die hard fan, I have been there and done that for 8 years, I can talk from experience




Based on your logic then we could condemn all other professions with a similar number of failures? Teachers, medical etc




Physic police stop crime before they occur, LOL the police for the most part react to a crime in progress or taken place.

Preempting criminal action is very difficulty especially housebreakings as the majority are crimes of opportunity. Crime intelligence does play a role buy that usually deals with organized crime.

To stop every crime you would need to put a policeman on every corner 24/7/365 and have 100% surveillance coverage. People don’t want this, so we do the best with what we have



I will watch it but I have spoken to many many people while on duty and have heard pretty much everything good and bad.

But you can’t generalize and say that your perception is that of the majority, looking at the comments on this site should prove that.

You have had unfortunate incidents involving the police which will influence your opinion, yet for you condemn the entire SAPS based on the actions of some officers is an emotional reaction and not a logical one
Click to expand...

I really have nothing to say .... you can go to be the spin doctor for zuma. he needs you.
 
DreamKing said:
I really have nothing to say .... you can go to be the spin doctor for zuma. he needs you.
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You never have really had anything substantive to say, besides having a rant, do you actually read the other replies?

At no point have I attempted to gloss over or endorse the action of those police officers who have engaged in criminal activities.

What spin doctoring??? I have no time for the ANC , but for the most part me and my colleagues are there for our community

The SAPS at the level where the actual work takes place is mostly A political we don’t ask the victims or suspects what there political affiliation is before acting

As for the article, I read the comments they are pretty much what you’d expect, did you read the article?

The violent environment bit is a cop out, but the section by the criminologist was interesting

Policing is a dirty job which sometimes requires violence, but that violence should be proportional to the situation and it should be the last option.
 
R/SGT said:
You never have really had anything substantive to say, besides having a rant, do you actually read the other replies?
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I don't want to call you ___________ ! you understand?

for example:
Based on your logic then we could condemn all other professions with a similar number of failures? Teachers, medical etc

state hospitals are mal function
school ? ....... not need to mention.

I can say for more than 6000 cases for one year alone, it is totally unacceptable. And you still believe it is "isolated"? what I can say? :rolleyes:

the rest of them I really don't want to respond any further ....... :(


R/SGT said:
As for the article, I read the comments they are pretty much what you’d expect, did you read the article?
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I read the article => exactly like what you said!
read the comments, those are what I want to tell you. => thousands of people like me! :mad:
 
Cops beat me up, claims woman

Cops beat me up, claims woman
2011-05-24 08:11

East London - An Eastern Cape woman claims she was severely beaten up by police officers outside the East London Airport over the weekend, the Daily Dispatch reported on Tuesday.

Lulama Feni, 34, said she was assaulted so badly on Saturday evening that doctors at Frere Hospital told her that her face had been fractured "numerous times".

Feni said her pleas to the officers to stop only incited their anger.

She said after the beating officers threw her in the back of the police van and took her to the Fleet Street police station. She claims officers continued to beat her there.

Feni was released on Monday morning but went back at the station to open a case of police brutality.

When the Dispatch interviewed Feni outside the police station on Monday, she could barely speak.

She had deep cuts on both sides of her face and her eyes were swollen shut.

"I am unable to walk properly and the blood does not stop flowing from my lips and nose," she said.

Arrest for fraud

Police spokesperson Lieutenant-Colonel Mtati Tana said the woman and her brother were arrested for fraud.

"Circumstances are still not clear ... at this stage as to what happened. All we know is police were called to a complaint of fake R200 notes at a tavern," he said, adding that police were investigating further.

However, Feni dismissed the charges and said she was on her way home with her boyfriend when they saw police officers arresting her brother-in-law.

She said after trying to ask the officers why they were arresting her brother-in-law, they became angry and started to "slap" him around.

"I tried to intervene but I never even finished my question … the police punched me in the face and I fell on the ground," she said.

Police officers then reportedly kicked her until she stopped moving.

The woman and her brother-in-law will appear in the East London Magistrate’s Court on Tuesday.
- SAPA
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http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Cops-beat-me-up-claims-woman-20110524

no crisis :sick:
 
Rosaudio said:
That is sick but there are always 3 sides to a story remember.
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As far as I'm concerned there can be no side whatsoever to any story that justifies the beating of a woman ... criminal or not.
Cops carrying on like this are the reason public respect for the badge/uniform is so low
 
Yeah hitting women is just not on. I find it odd there is no report of CCTV footage seeing as it happened at an airport.
 
McSack said:
As far as I'm concerned there can be no side whatsoever to any story that justifies the beating of a woman ... criminal or not.
Cops carrying on like this are the reason public respect for the badge/uniform is so low
Click to expand...
I agree, it sounds like the police acted wrongly in this case, however the victim is always going to be over dramatic.. maybe she was resisting or even physically attacking the police officers?
Ronjay said:
Hmmm, is there a side to a story that justifies police beating anyone, in any situation?
Click to expand...

Was she really beaten though? Maybe she was and in that case this is a horrific story.

However as far as I know she could have been resisting and the police had to use force knocking her to the ground and bam. faceplant.. maybe i'm just being too optimistic about the cops


____________________________

As I have said before though, all this could have been avoided if the cops here were equipped with tasers. They are expensive but I think they are desperately needed in this country.
 
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