Pretoria or Tshwane

[Prometheus]

I'm really getting angry at the way this matter is being handled. I think, since we have a democratic country now (which is a good thing) we should be given the chance to vote democratically which name should be used.

But they should take cost and effects in consideration.

Done already. 90% voted against the name change. But knowing this ANC government they will probably change it anyway and some people on this forum will then say that it was done democratically since there was a vote and will say that everyone had a say. This would again prove the point I made in the other thread that democracy in SA is a farce.

 

[Xarog]

Xarog: ***** said: "let him who is without sin cast the first stone". We are all responsible for the situation that we are in and no one has any "right" to blame any one else as we are all guilty in some way or another. I hate Telkom yes, but Telkom is not a person. I don't hate the people like Papi and the executives that make the decisions. I hate what they are doing and hope that they will change things, but I don't hate them. I don't hate Mugabe. I hate what he is doing to his country and maybe some day he would come to enlightenment by going through the same hardship which he is forcing his people to go through. I don't wise hardship to come to him, but if it would change him and his country for the better then I'm not against it. I don't hate Bush, I hate the decisions he made up till now. Going to war with Iraq was probably the right thing although I was opposed to it, but now they are screwing up the post-war occupation.

That's your choice. Doesn't explain why you'd deny me the right to hate if I so choose.

You are free to hate who you want to hate, but you certainly don't have any "right" to hate anyone as you are just as much a sinner as everyone else including me. We can't hate people and then say no one should hate us in return. That is why this country and world is in the state it is in. Hate only invites more hate, where forgiveness invites others to forgive us.

I am not a christian, I do not believe people are born into sin. I make mistakes, so does everyone. But hate is part of what makes me human - as is love, anger, sorrow. I don't think it's fair that people try and tell me what I can and cannot feel.

We can't hate people and then say no one should hate us in return.

I never said that.

Just look at the examples. America helped Saddam to stay in power out of self interest and then retaliate because of fear from nuclear attack. Insurgents attack soldiers out of hate for the Americans. Now American soldiers killed more people out of hate for the insurgents causing the trouble. Now there will probably be more violence out of hate for the American soldiers. Where does all this end? It can only lead to self destruction of the human race.

I never said it was OK to act out of hatred either.

 

[Angelo]

Angelo,
Indeed, by saying Pretoria is a bad name, you are implying that white settlement in South Africa should not be remembered (on the assumption that Pretorius was an explorer). Is this your intention?

So you want names like Pretoria to be retained as a "rememberance" to white settlement? Oh I'm sure the African majority will be thrilled to hear that. What a cheek!

 

[Angelo]

I'm really getting angry at the way this matter is being handled. I think, since we have a democratic country now (which is a good thing) we should be given the chance to vote democratically which name should be used.

Elections are held so that we get leaders who will implement decisions as representatives of the majority, you don't want a ballot to be cast for every little matter now do you?

 

[charl.voster]

Pretoria was here before apartheid.

 

[charl.voster]

We gave them (the blacks) the vote and now they are out to take their revenge. Nice reward for "doing the right thing." Maybe we should have voted NO!

 

[louisp]

Elections are held so that we get leaders who will implement decisions as representatives of the majority, you don't want a ballot to be cast for every little matter now do you?

That is true yes. But sometimes these elected ones do not represent the wishes of those that elected them.

If everyone is saying don't do it. Then they must think they know better than the mayority, if they still continue and do it.

********

Why do you want to spend 1.2 billion on a little matter? Angelo your arguments are flawed. PLease try and put together some intelligent arguments.

 

[kingmonty]

So you want names like Pretoria to be retained as a "rememberance" to white settlement? Oh I'm sure the African majority will be thrilled to hear that. What a cheek!

Are black people in Africa so blinded by hatred that they fail to see the good in white people completely??

 

[ignacio]

We gave them (the blacks) the vote and now they are out to take their revenge. Nice reward for "doing the right thing." Maybe we should have voted NO!

You gave them nothing that shouldn't have been theirs to begin with. You don't deserve a reward for oppressing them. Inane.

 

[charl.voster]

All life originated in Africa. Whites are not "settlers" or "foreigners" - We are Africans and we simply retuned "home"

 

[kingmonty]

Elections are held so that we get leaders who will implement decisions as representatives of the majority, you don't want a ballot to be cast for every little matter now do you?

Actually no. A democracy is where the people elect a representative to govern - not rule. Such a representative is responsible and as such accountable to the people who elected such a representative. In South Africa, an alliance of parties has formed a monopoly, and this monopoly ensures a majority vote. This alliance of parties (commonly called the tripartite alliance) elects amongst its own ranks and its own organisation a representative to rule. That representative is not elected by the public, but by a political monopoly.

What I want to see is the tripartite alliance dissolved, thereby letting each of the member parties run for elections on its own steam, without establishing a monopolistic cartel. Then we'll have less corruption (because there's less collaberation, less coverups, etc) and more accountability of the leaders we elect.

Currently, we do not elect a leader as the president - we elect an organisation to make someone in it's ranks the leader, and that is not a democracy.

 

[ignacio]

Elections are held so that we get leaders who will implement decisions as representatives of the majority, you don't want a ballot to be cast for every little matter now do you?

Yes clearly.

But this "native" vs "foreign" stuff earlier in the thread all rubbish - we are all South Africans now - "natives" don't get more than 1 vote - we are all equal and this is a democracy. That having been said, the ruling party should be careful with changing stuff just because it can - it sets a bad precedent (should Zille now start to change street names in Cape Town to honour white settlers?).

But Tshwane vs Pretoria is not a big issue for me - if it makes sense to change it to Tshwane (debatable - who decides the name?), then let the majority decide what they want to call a place. I don't see minorities in the US, Australia or in Europe dictating to the majority what they want stuff called. I am saying just do it for the right reasons, NOT because you are in power, NOT to punish and TO something that actually means something (Tshwane?)

 

[charl.voster]

You gave them nothing that shouldn't have been theirs to begin with. You don't deserve a reward for oppressing them. Inane.

nonsense. They did not have democracy in Africa before the whites returned home and brought it with them.

 

[ignacio]

Currently, we do not elect a leader as the president - we elect an organisation to make someone in it's ranks the leader, and that is not a democracy.

Wrong it is a representative democracy - and is the standard form of democracy worldwide. Only one participatory democracy that I know about (Switzerland - thanks to my buddy Prometheus for the info)

 

[ignacio]

nonsense. They did not have democracy in Africa before the whites returned home and brought it with them.

Nonsense? Do you even hear how ignorant you sound? They were free, had their own systems and leaders - democracy or not - so you take away all of their rights, give them back to them and say "where is our freaking reward?" This attitude defies belief.

 

[Xarog]

Angelo, I would appreciate it if you could spare the time to actually attempt to address the points I raised about your POV. Your lack of response leads me to assume that you have no coherent or logical argument which which to respond, and that's not an assumption I'd like to make.

 

[kingmonty]

You gave them nothing that shouldn't have been theirs to begin with. You don't deserve a reward for oppressing them. Inane.

Wrong. Nothing was anyone elses. In Africa, there wouldn't be any countries today if it weren't for a western influence. There would still be tribal wars and mass genocides (in northern and central Africa, that is still very commonplace). The point is this: In Southern Africa, the wars and battles and everything else that took place over the past 4 centuries was for land. The original peoples that lived on these lands do not feature in the governments of these lands today, as they were all but wiped out. The history of the Northern and Central Transvaal region is clear. The Afrikaners (Voortrekkers) won it in battle. The Brits screwed the Afrikaners over for it, and eventually gave the Afrikaners the lands back through declarations of independence. Apartheid came many years later, when the whole of South Africa became a republic.

In any event, as previously stated, I fail to see the correlation between Apartheid and Pretoria. If someone would be so kind as to please explain how the two became synonymous I would appreciate that.

 

[kingmonty]

Wrong it is a representative democracy - and is the standard form of democracy worldwide. Only one participatory democracy that I know about (Switzerland - thanks to my buddy Prometheus for the info)

Nonsense. America votes for a person, who is a member of a political party. Here we vote for a monopolised alliance who actually pretty much never agrees on anything, but they keep the alliance bound so as to garner a guaranteed majority. Mmmm, democracy my arse.

 

[kingmonty]

Nonsense? Do you even hear how ignorant you sound? They were free, had their own systems and leaders - democracy or not - so you take away all of their rights, give them back to them and say "where is our freaking reward?" This attitude defies belief.

That's reaching a whole lot. Tribal systems in place (as previously admitted by the likes of Angelo and Baby) are at the root of all systems in this country. By definition the tribal politics at play within the political structures rules out the general ideas of a democracy, i.e.: what the people want. Furthermore, tribal conflicts are the number one cause of wars in Africa today. Look at the DRC (btw, putting "democratic" in the name, don't make it so), Nigeria, Ghana, the list goes on and on and on and on.

 

[ignacio]

Wrong. Nothing was anyone elses.

Oh please - is this a long-winded way of saying - yes, we took away black people's right to self-determination and that was ok because they didn't know better.