Pretoria or Tshwane

[kingmonty]

you are starting to sound like Pupa and Ajak everyday

I've proven my points, as has everyone else - except you. There's no need to drag people who are not involved in this debate in based on your perception of their reputation. Furthermore, I certainly don't need to debate issues that you clearly have no real clue about. Several forumites invalidated your arguments in many different ways, but yet you still resort to attacking and systematic categorisation of people. Not to mention you pretty much echoed the sentiments of the Safety and Security minister by wishing us to leave.

Whatever dude, get over yourself and get over aparheid. it happened a long time ago.

 

[kingmonty]

I bring up the holocaust because one is always reminded (I repeat again) how painful it was for the Jewish people etc. People sympathize and shed a tear. Apartheid, people defend it and try and hold on to it. As if to say the pain of losing people you ove to injustice is different if you're Jewish or Sotho.

Tell that to the next victim of crime in this country.

 

[kingmonty]

Nobody is wiping out The history of whites, the ones worth homoring are being honored and the rest are being done away with.(Their monuments that is) Its that simple

Renaming Pretoria is just another step in the butchering of South African history.

 

[hj2k_x]

Simply read the thread from the start you'll see the reasons.

Er, no. I just did that and I still have no idea.

 

[Angelo]

I've proven my points, as has everyone else - except you. There's no need to drag people who are not involved in this debate in based on your perception of their reputation. Furthermore, I certainly don't need to debate issues that you clearly have no real clue about. Several forumites invalidated your arguments in many different ways, but yet you still resort to attacking and systematic categorisation of people. Not to mention you pretty much echoed the sentiments of the Safety and Security minister by wishing us to leave.

Whatever dude, get over yourself and get over aparheid. it happened a long time ago.

So typical.

 

[Angelo]

Nice generalisation there. And as a black who grew up in the Apartheid era your thinking is perfectly understandable.

That's not how it works, you brought it up so you must provide the links, not the other forumites.

I think what they are saying is that the whole Pretoria should remain Pretoria. The metro includes places other than Pretoria and that is already called Tswane. Why does anyone want to rename only part of the city anyway and keep the core as Pretoria? Sounds just as flawed to me.

Are you perhaps referring to the SABC propaganda calling Pretoria by the name Tswane when it is not. Only stating that they should go to the people who think a name change is more important than food.

I can argue with you until kingdom come BUT Tshwane is going to be the new name so deal with it!

 

[hj2k_x]

No. I'm really tired of the whole "Natives" argument, and it is a flawed argument to begin with. Firstly, the only true Natives in South Africa are the San. These people do not even feature in South Africa anymore. Secondly, the other people who are always so quick to label themselves "native" migrated here from central Africa - pretty much the same time the *settlers* landed here to begin with. Today, so many people claiming that they're *natives* have roots up north. Even more problematic with the argument is the fact that the majority of people living in the cities and townships around the major cities today do not have their roots anywhere near these cities.

Finally, following the logic in your argument one would need to find the exact origins of the very first human being, and every human being will thereby be a native of only that region - and no other.

None of you guys have provided any kind of cogent reply to this...

 

[hj2k_x]

Only stating that they should go to the people who think a name change is more important than food.

Do you, Angelo?

 

[Angelo]

No here's the thing you'll never be forgiven until you come right.
The sad reality is that your opinion doesn't count anymore because when it did count you made it law! You ****ed up so deal with it.

I bring up the holocaust because one is always reminded (I repeat again) how painful it was for the Jewish people etc. People sympathize and shed a tear. Apartheid, people defend it and try and hold on to it. As if to say the pain of losing people you over to injustice is different if you're Jewish or Sotho.

The genral attitude on this forum (save for the few who don't falunder this banner) is that SA is going down the drain, as if it was so great before. It was great because the minority were in power, doing as they pleased when they pleased. Now that things are changed its going down the drain? :/

Believe it or not no, African shares any heritage with you. You want to force your heritage on people even upto this day, no matter the cost. You want them to respect it when you did not respect theirs. After how you treated the people that were rightfully here you still want a say in how things happen. This is either extreme arrogance or irreproachable stupidity. I'm leaning towards the former, but make room for the latter.

The nice thing is that I may fail to make you see where the African is coming from, but that is besides the point because it'll be Tswane anyway.


D.F Malan was changed to Beyers Nauder in honor of a man who made a difference. In honor of someone who was not a native but took it upon himself to fight against what was wrong and could rightfully call himself an African.

Nobody is wiping out The history of whites, the ones worth honoring are being honored and the rest are being done away with.(Their monuments that is) Its that simple

I think in this country it's generally the former but in this forum the latter is also the case.

 

[hj2k_x]

Nobody is wiping out The history of whites, the ones worth honoring are being honored and the rest are being done away with.(Their monuments that is) Its that simple

To get back to the actual debate at hand, how is Pretoria a monument to the Apartheid era??

 

[Getafix]

When our friend Angelo is asked a question he answers with an accusation or another stupid question.

All he eventually came up with is that the blacks will do what they will, regardless.

Infantile.

Fortunately a lot of people are prepared to solve this country's problems.

Let him be.

I think he only enjoys to be answered.

Shame!

 

[Angelo]

When our friend Angelo is asked a question he answers with an accusation or another stupid question.

All he eventually came up with is that the blacks will do what they will, regardless.

Infantile.

Fortunately a lot of people are prepared to solve this country's problems.

Let him be.

I think he only enjoys to be answered.

Shame!

I'm not some GVT minister who has to allay the fears of backward bigots, if you enjoy whining so much why don't you join the official whining party.

 

[DigitalSoldier]

I bring up the holocaust because one is always reminded (I repeat again) how painful it was for the Jewish people etc. People sympathize and shed a tear. Apartheid, people defend it and try and hold on to it. As if to say the pain of losing people you over to injustice is different if you're Jewish or Sotho.

Believe it or not no, African shares any heritage with you. You want to force your heritage on people even upto this day, no matter the cost. You want them to respect it when you did not respect theirs. After how you treated the people that were rightfully here you still want a say in how things happen. This is either extreme arrogance or irreproachable stupidity. I'm leaning towards the former, but make room for the latter.

Shock there are some jews on the forum that have made it clear they dont go and cry about the holocaust everyday(like people do about apartheid) they didnt forget it but they have moved on and created a better life for themself.

Glad you said that (bold text) because angelo did agree with you. Also another thing that was pointed out before in this same thread After how you treated the people that were rightfully " the san were rightfully here all the people currently fighting over power moved here from all over the san should actually have a say in the runnings of the country

 

[kingmonty]

the san were rightfully here all the people currently fighting over power moved here from all over the san should actually have a say in the runnings of the country

Which is one of several uncontested points I made....

 

[DigitalSoldier]

kingmonty I read ur post before making a reply just didnt wanne go back and get the link to ur post. Most of the valid questions that were made are still left unanwsered by angelo

 

[BTTB]

Smallpox Epidemic of 1713

Also another thing that was pointed out before in this same thread After how you treated the people that were rightfully " the san were rightfully here all the people currently fighting over power moved here from all over the san should actually have a say in the runnings of the country

The San and the Khoi's history is a rather sad one.
They may have been the majority?

But one event that stands out that is the most tragic of them all, was the near annihilation of their race in 1713 and subsequent outbreaks, from Smallpox of which they had no natural immunity to.

By February 1714 the few Khoi survivors reported to the Governor of the Cape that not even ten percent of the original Khoi population of the south-western Cape had survived the epidemic.

The Smallpox Epidemic of 1713

On 8 April 1713 smallpox epidemic broke out among the slaves at the Cape Colony. It also spread to the Europeans and Khoikhoi, who had never been exposed to smallpox and had no natural resistance to the disease. Many of the survivors fled and came into conflict with other Khoikhoi groups. The Drakenstein area suffered the most as the epidemic continued for between three and four months. In 1755 and 1767 two more smallpox epidemics nearly eradicated all the Khoikhoi and those who survived became westernised, Christianised and learnt to speak Dutch, which later became Afrikaans, and dress in European clothes.

Source.

Perhaps some mathematician one day may calculate what the current population of Khoi Khoi, Bushman, San and Khoi would have been in South Africa had this event in history never occurred.
One would need to know how many Khoi Khoi people were around in 1713 and approximately how many children were born to a average family.

 

[Prometheus]

Monty I'm very dissapointed with the way you conducted yourself in this thread but the last thing I will say to you is African places should and will get African names, if you prefer Western names feel free to leave and settle in Western cities with Western names (rightly so).

And South Africa is a Western Country because it was colonised and founded by western people. If you really believed in that statement you would want all african names to change to western names.

As a person with a Jewish background I am particularly interested to know who brought up the Holocaust in this debate. Particularly more acutely interesting to me would be how many people bring up the holocaust vs how many people bring up or blame apartheid.

Good point you make there. The Holocaust is not blamed for all the problems we have now, but apartheid is. I'm not Jewish and I accept that it was a tragedy and it should not have happened just like apartheid should not have happened, but apartheid is the only thing that constantly gets blamed for EVERY problem in the world.

Believe it or not no, African shares any heritage with you. You want to force your heritage on people even upto this day, no matter the cost. You want them to respect it when you did not respect theirs. After how you treated the people that were rightfully here you still want a say in how things happen. This is either extreme arrogance or irreproachable stupidity. I'm leaning towards the former, but make room for the latter.

The only heritage we share is that none of us were here. Only the San was here. We are either all africans or none of us are. Pretoria is a South African name whether people like it or not. It is not synonymous with injustice. It was named in honor of someone who did a lot for the country and should remain that way instead of being changed simply because it is a name given by white people.

but that is besides the point because it'll be Tswane anyway.

I can argue with you until kingdom come BUT Tshwane is going to be the new name so deal with it!

To hell with what the majority wants we will change it because we hate the whites. Good stating of the facts there.

 

[supersunbird]

Agm,you know what, they (ANC government) are ****ing up the country (and Pretoria) so badly that its should rather become a crime cesspool with a different name and not tarnish the old name...

 

[Getafix]

Angelo wrote:

I'm not some GVT minister who has to allay the fears of backward bigots, if you enjoy whining so much why don't you join the official whining party.

Now this is the reply of a: adult, serious forumite, educated, informed, well versed in social skills, showing his infinite political knowledge, trying to make friends.

No, Angelo, allow me to assist you.

I am not whining. I pity you.

For me being backward? Carefull! I am just lapping you.

 

[neio]

The renaming is more about Africans than it is about whites, it's is to restore the names that were there before occupation, sounds fair enough to me.

Aah, and there lies the crux of the problem that you have with western names, you consider the presence of white people in SA to be an occupation and not to be part of the nation of SA.