Pretoria or Tshwane

[kingmonty]

Okay one thing and one thing all caucasian people in South Africa must understand is that you are South Afircan, but you are not a Native! Period.

No matter how long I stay in Japan and have great grand childern, they may be Japanese by nationality, but not by origin. Hence, they will never be Natives as there are no bronze Japapnese people.

We are not going to get into debates into when settlers arrived in Africa, point is they arrived! The Natives never arrived at any point they were here from the get go.

No. I'm really tired of the whole "Natives" argument, and it is a flawed argument to begin with. Firstly, the only true Natives in South Africa are the San. These people do not even feature in South Africa anymore. Secondly, the other people who are always so quick to label themselves "native" migrated here from central Africa - pretty much the same time the *settlers* landed here to begin with. Today, so many people claiming that they're *natives* have roots up north. Even more problematic with the argument is the fact that the majority of people living in the cities and townships around the major cities today do not have their roots anywhere near these cities.

Finally, following the logic in your argument one would need to find the exact origins of the very first human being, and every human being will thereby be a native of only that region - and no other.

 

[icyrus]

Okay one thing and one thing all caucasian people in South Africa must understand is that you are South Afircan, but you are not a Native! Period.

No matter how long I stay in Japan and have great grand childern, they may be Japanese by nationality, but not by origin. Hence, they will never be Natives as there are no bronze Japapnese people.

We are not going to get into debates into when settlers arrived in Africa, point is they arrived! The Natives never arrived at any point they were here from the get go.

Now about the cost of the name change? Lets say it is 1.5BN compared to exaclty how much the Apartheid Government spent on systematically oppressing the people that they deemed not fit to live with.

All that's being chaged is a name, nothing is being taken away from you that was not yours in the first place.
If you really believe you're entitled to a non Afircan name on African soil then you clearly don't belong here and you'd do youself a favor and leave.
No natives were consulted about naming the place Pretoria, it was just done. People should be glad you're even being consulted or even getting a say in the matter at all.

And, Steve Hofmeyer is a prick! {Jokes...not really!}

Now what would you say if I told a black french person that despite the fact that he was born there and that his family has lived there for hundreds of years he is not french or even european?

This is a foolish point of view to have and one that will be the downfall of this country. There is no need for such divisions.

Besides, there were people here before the blacks and there will be people here after them.

 

[kingmonty]

I don't expect that your opinion will change from this debate (for as long as it remains unlocked) I'm just saying good luck to you because for years to come you are going to encounter a lot of people who share my opinion, the same opinion you refer to as ********.

my opinions change when debates change them. So far no debate in this thread has been able to sway me.

 

[Getafix]

Straight answer

Angelo

You answer everything in a long way with a new question. I do not know on how many forums and threads.

A straight answer: Yes or no.

When Diaz sailed around the Southern point of Africa somewhere in the 1400s have the indigenuos people invented the wheel yet?

 

[Angelo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City

I do believe the area's name has already been changed and now its just the actual city's name that is up for debate.

If you watched The Big Question, the anti-Tshwane people were saying it's not enough that only the inner-city should remain Pretoria, they want the name to be retained overall, it's their way (even thougg they are the minority) or the highway (excuse the pun)

 

[Angelo]

Okay one thing and one thing all caucasian people in South Africa must understand is that you are South Afircan, but you are not a Native! Period.

No matter how long I stay in Japan and have great grand childern, they may be Japanese by nationality, but not by origin. Hence, they will never be Natives as there are no bronze Japapnese people.

We are not going to get into debates into when settlers arrived in Africa, point is they arrived! The Natives never arrived at any point they were here from the get go.

Now about the cost of the name change? Lets say it is 1.5BN compared to exaclty how much the Apartheid Government spent on systematically oppressing the people that they deemed not fit to live with.

All that's being chaged is a name, nothing is being taken away from you that was not yours in the first place.
If you really believe you're entitled to a non Afircan name on African soil then you clearly don't belong here and you'd do youself a favor and leave.
No natives were consulted about naming the place Pretoria, it was just done. People should be glad you're even being consulted or even getting a say in the matter at all.

And, Steve Hofmeyer is a prick! {Jokes...not really!}

Nicely summarised ShockG, "let those with ears listen".

 

[Angelo]

Angelo

You answer everything in a long way with a new question. I do not know on how many forums and threads.

A straight answer: Yes or no.

When Diaz sailed around the Southern point of Africa somewhere in the 1400s have the indigenuos people invented the wheel yet?

Please rephrase your statement.

 

[Prometheus]

I'd go along with Jakaranda City, but over my dead body they will change it to Tshwane, I will spraypaint those signs!

I'm just as much opposed to that. It should remain what it is. No need to waste money.

Again those "bigger problems" do have their budget and shouldn't be used as an excuse to keep relics of the past. And it's interesting to note that the people who are most affected by the "big problems" are the ones who are supporting the name change and do not view it as a stumbing block to their problems getting attention.

Their problems aren't getting attention anyway, so I guess they have nothing to lose. But if this is the case then next time they ask me for money I'll send them to you and tell them Angelo said you should rather use R1 billion for a name change than for food.

 

[icyrus]

If you watched The Big Question, the anti-Tshwane people were saying it's not enough that only the inner-city should remain Pretoria, they want the name to be retained overall, it's their way (even thougg they are the minority) or the highway (excuse the pun)

I'm sure there are people who want that, but what I was debating is if Pretoria city's name should be changed. You said it should, I'm tring to find out why.

 

[supersunbird]

Hey, Angelo are you even from Pretoria?

 

[Getafix]

Straight Answer

Angelo

Last try.

What in my question did you not understand?

 

[Angelo]

I'm sure there are people who want that, but what I was debating is if Pretoria city's name should be changed. You said it should, I'm tring to find out why.

Gosh how many times should I answer you, maybe you want me force you to agree with the reasons given?

 

[kingmonty]

Angelo: tell us in point form why you think Pretoria's name must change.

 

[supersunbird]

OK Angelo, maybe you dont understand how it all works.

In the Tshwane Metro there are a few areas, like Centurion (a name change I had no problem with) with a number of suburbs/areas in it, Pretoria with a number of suburbs/areas in it, Akasia, with a number of suburbs/areas under it, Soshanguve with a number of suburbs/areas under it.

 

[icyrus]

Gosh how many times should I answer you, maybe you want me force you to agree with the reasons given?

Haha now I'm confused. You're reason was that it was restoring the african name, but we have covered the fact that pretoria city never did have an african name. So you must have another reason which, I'm hoping, isn't just because whites named it that.

Edit: fixed unfortunate typo

 

[Angelo]

IBut if this is the case then next time they ask me for money I'll send them to you and tell them Angelo said you should rather use R1 billion for a name change than for food.

Nice try at Propaganda.

 

[Angelo]

Angelo: tell us in point form why you think Pretoria's name must change.

Simply read the thread from the start you'll see the reasons.

 

[supersunbird]

Hey, Angelo are you even from Pretoria?

OK Angelo, maybe you dont understand how it all works.

In the Tshwane Metro there are a few areas, like Centurion (a name change I had no problem with) with a number of suburbs/areas in it, Pretoria with a number of suburbs/areas in it, Akasia, with a number of suburbs/areas under it, Soshanguve with a number of suburbs/areas under it.

And that is how I want it to stay...

 

[Angelo]

OK Angelo, maybe you dont understand how it all works.

In the Tshwane Metro there are a few areas, like Centurion (a name change I had no problem with) with a number of suburbs/areas in it, Pretoria with a number of suburbs/areas in it, Akasia, with a number of suburbs/areas under it, Soshanguve with a number of suburbs/areas under it.

I know, thanks anyway my learned friend.

 

[kingmonty]

Ok, so changing Pretoria's name to Tshwane will preserve African's (actually only Black African's) dignity?