Primary school condom plan shock

[porchrat]

Do you really think children at that age would be willing to tell someone they can't do it because they have HIV? They would get an instant stigma at school and be victimised.

I got the numbers from a unicef report on the net, if you prefer a more local source www.statssa.gov.za/publications/P0302/P03022011.pdf That is for 2011 (estimated new infections only).

I am not denying the stigma I was just wondering how the figures could be accurate if the kids the figures are claiming have HIV don't know themselves. It didn't make sense to me.

I see now that it is an educated guess based on past observations on the disease. The confusion for me was in how you presented the figure: You said there are X number of kids with HIV when it should have been that it is estimated that there are X number of kids with HIV. The way you said it led me to believe that you had a study confirming these numbers which would be something I would be very interested in reading. We honestly don't know the exact number and that figure is a best guess.

 

[Sinbad]

Wow, everything is black and white with you hey? You can't decouple one thing from another? You can't see shades of grey? I feel sorry for you, sort of. You really think society as a whole is more moral now than it was 20 years ago?

Considering that 20 years ago we were living under Apartheid yes definitely.

All things considered Apartheid was far worse than some kids messing about sexually. One is a conscious denial of the humanity of others the other is just kids exploring their sexuality. Would I like the kids to lay off until they are old enough to understand the implications? Indeed I would. However it isn't even close to being comparable to the horrors visited upon humanity by Apartheid.

You are honestly attempting to argue that we were more moral as a society when we allowed the murder of people because of the colour of their skin or imprisoned just because they wanted equality with their fellow man? Are you insane?

I said AS A WHOLE.
I didn't say IN SOUTH AFRICA.

Just look at American TV to see what I mean. And these american shows influence the yoof of our country.

 

[porchrat]

I said AS A WHOLE.
I didn't say IN SOUTH AFRICA.

Just look at American TV to see what I mean. And these american shows influence the yoof of our country.

Oh you mean the whole planet. Oh definitely still morally superior.

20 years ago we were still trying to pull ourselves out of stupid schit like prescribed gender roles.

Gay rights 20 years ago? Forget it those people are evil why should we recognise the right to not be discriminated against based on sexual orientation! That is a choice and they must be punished for their evil ways with a big juicy jail term or something equally diabolical!

Gay Marriage 20 years ago? Oh please what an insane idea only some fringe crazy would endorse such a thing.

Racism all over the place. Apartheid here. In the US the idea of a black president of the United States 20 years ago? Pull the other one!

Sure there are pockets of people across the globe that still defecate all over human rights and the idea that we should all be allowed to live our lives without fscking with each other but overall man we are better off now than we have ever been and a few kids fiddling with each other at a slightly younger age than we started doing it is certainly not offsetting all the monumental strides we have made in the past few decades.

Many people sacrificed and suffered to make these things a reality and heck the fight for the right for gays to marry is ongoing. You take the legal protection of the freedom to live your life as you see fit for granted with statements about complete moral decline.

As to you trying to use certain types of TV to justify your statements as opposed to actually showing me something concrete man I'm just going to let that slide.

 

[Sinbad]

You're right. Everything is SO MUCH BETTER.. after all, grade 3 kids having kids is their fundamental right, right?

 

[porchrat]

You're right. Everything is SO MUCH BETTER..

Come now you and I both know I never said this. Lets not be silly now.

Remember YOU were the one who wanted to talk about an overall situation. Now you are trying to take it back to specifics. Let me know when you decide which set of goalposts you wish to deal with. :|

after all, grade 3 kids having kids is their fundamental right, right?

That is a pretty weak (and repetitive) counter argument mate.

Kids are having SEX! you are right complete moral decay. We are finished as a species. Give it another year and we will be back to slavery, death by stoning, officially sanctioned racism and homosexuality being a criminal offence. What was I thinking!

 

[daveza]

Kids are having SEX!

Always did - but I think now we are including pre-teens and even pre-tens.

I honestly don't know the solution but just throwing prophylactics at it is not even remotely enough.

 

[Sinbad]

Come now you and I both know I never said this. Lets not be silly now.

Remember YOU were the one who wanted to talk about an overall situation. Now you are trying to take it back to specifics. Let me know when you decide which set of goalposts you wish to deal with. :|



That is a pretty weak (and repetitive) counter argument mate.

Kids are having SEX! you are right complete moral decay. We are finished as a species. Give it another year and we will be back to slavery, death by stoning, officially sanctioned racism and homosexuality being a criminal offence. What was I thinking!

Well, mob justice and sanctioned racism still happen in SA... so does human trafficking... corrective rape...
So we're not as advanced as you like to think. Sure, the LAW says one thing, but the people on the ground are doing something completely different....

 

[porchrat]

Well, mob justice and sanctioned racism still happen in SA... so does human trafficking... corrective rape...
So we're not as advanced as you like to think. Sure, the LAW says one thing, but the people on the ground are doing something completely different....

Not "the people", just some of the people. You are always going to get people who will break the laws of our society. If we didn't there would be no need for laws in the first place. What you seem to have forgotten though is that 20 years ago a some of that schit you hold up as horrific travesties of justice that are now against the law were official policies of the government.

I'm getting tired of hearing about this complete moral decay garbage. You would think the last 100 or so years of human cultural advancement just didn't happen. We used to beat, imprison and in some cases execute homosexuals man, some even within my arguably short lifespan. That alone is a massive recent step forward. You take all that stuff, forget it, and instead focus on little pregnant Susie with total tunnel vision and go "well that is it! We are fscked in every single way!". Ridiculous.

 

[Sinbad]

Some of the people sure. You are always going to get people who will break the law. What you seem to have forgotten is that 20 years ago a some of that schit you hold up as horrific travesties of justice that are now against the law were official policies of the government.

SO the legal system is getting more progressive and equitable. I agree. However the legal system does not equate to society.
It seems to me that society is becoming less likely to obey the law, and more likely to go for self-gratification over and above what is moral and just.... and THAT is what I mean by moral decay.
People only obey laws for fear of the consequences of not obeying them. They do their best to get away with as much as possible, no matter the effect on others. THAT is what I mean. Principles like "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" are out the window.

 

[daveza]

What you seem to have forgotten is that 20 years ago

Yet 20 years ago masses of pregnant primary school kids just didn't exist.

So somewhere in amongst all the changes for good, some changes for bad have happened and I don't think govt knows what to do about it and if I were really cynical might suggest they don't really mind the potential voting fodder.

 

[porchrat]

SO the legal system is getting more progressive and equitable. I agree. However the legal system does not equate to society.

The legal system is the law governing society. In many ways they reflect the feelings of the populous at any one time (though I will grant you that they do tend to lag behind the feelings of the times in many cases and play catch up).

It seems to me that society is becoming less likely to obey the law, and more likely to go for self-gratification over and above what is moral and just.... and THAT is what I mean by moral decay.

You are going to have to provide reliable evidence that the majority of society is doing this because as far as I can see it is the minority.

People only obey laws for fear of the consequences of not obeying them.

LOL I obey laws because they make sense and I can see how they benefit society. Take away the laws about murder and I assure you I am not going to go on a shooting rampage. If you would then go see a therapist.

They do their best to get away with as much as possible, no matter the effect on others.

I certainly don't and I have never met anyone that behaves like that.

THAT is what I mean. Principles like "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" are out the window.

Show me the evidence. I don't see it.

 

[Sinbad]

I certainly don't and I have never met anyone that behaves like that.

You lead a sheltered existence.

 

[daveza]

Take away the laws about murder and I assure you I am not going to go on a shooting rampage.

Yet the majority of the country would suggest that the lack of the death penalty is the cause of the high murder rate.

 

[porchrat]

You lead a sheltered existence.

A middle class existence I would say.

By the sounds of it you live in a warzone with every single person out for themselves with complete disregard for the law. Where anybody in the entire country would murder just as easily as wave goodday.

The image you conjure simply doesn't exist. We have criminals in our society as does every society but as far as I can see they are not the majority of the population.

For example would you do whatever the fsck you wanted to your fellow man if laws weren't in place to prevent it? Is this what you are telling me? Are you truly that cruel and twisted?

 

[Sinbad]

A middle class existence I would say.

By the sounds of it you live in a warzone with every single person out for themselves with complete disregard for the law. Where anybody in the entire country would murder just as easily as wave goodday.

The image you conjure simply doesn't exist. We have criminals in our society as does every society but as far as I can see they are not the majority of the population.

For example would you do whatever the fsck you wanted to your fellow man if laws weren't in place to prevent it? Is this what you are telling me? Are you truly that cruel and twisted?

Absolutely not. I would not be commenting on what I perceived to be moral decay if I felt it was acceptable or the norm.
I take my morning commute as a microcosm of society. The number of selfish, dangerous drivers out there breaking the law to jump ahead of 3 people in a queue, speeding to arrive at their destination a minute earlier, etc leads me to a perception that there is little regard for the law. Sure, it may be the minority and it may be minor issues, but it's becoming more visible and more prevalent as time goes by. At this rate, soon we will be like Cairo in terms of traffic law. Where is the tipping point? Decay starts somewhere. Sure, we may not be at anarchy level yet - but we seem to be moving that way. Policeman executed by people stealing a bike... Hell, we even have a president implicated in corruption, extra-marital affairs, etc... These are not signs of progress.

 

[porchrat]

Absolutely not. I would not be commenting on what I perceived to be moral decay if I felt it was acceptable or the norm.

Then you aren't making any sense with your claims of complete moral decay.

I take my morning commute as a microcosm of society. The number of selfish, dangerous drivers out there breaking the law to jump ahead of 3 people in a queue, speeding to arrive at their destination a minute earlier, etc leads me to a perception that there is little regard for the law.

So there is little regard for some traffic laws on your local commute... therefore complete moral decay? This is not logical.

Sure, it may be the minority and it may be minor issues, but it's becoming more visible and more prevalent as time goes by. At this rate, soon we will be like Cairo in terms of traffic law. Where is the tipping point?

You are going to have to provide evidence of this beyond your subjective observations on your daily commute.

Decay starts somewhere.

We are talking about complete decay.

Sure, we may not be at anarchy level yet - but we seem to be moving that way. Policeman executed by people stealing a bike...

Oh my goodness a policeman died!!!! This has never happened before!!! The end is nigh!!! Complete decay is here!!! Call the army!!

Hell, we even have a president implicated in corruption, extra-marital affairs, etc... These are not signs of progress.

A politician is corrupt and a philandering womaniser!! Wow that has certainly never happened before!! The end is even nigher!!!!

 

[Sinbad]

OK, stick your head deeper into the sand, Mr Ostrich...

 

[porchrat]

OK, stick your head deeper into the sand, Mr Ostrich...

Hey man whenever you are prepared to provide that evidence that demonstrates that the majority of our society lives in total hedonistic anarchy I would be happy to see it.

Until then please stop making baseless claims about us living in a state of complete moral decay.

 

[Necuno]

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-afr...hool-condom-plan-shock-1.1316084#.T9X3otUtijM



So, seeing as sex under the age of 16 is illegal are the schools now promoting rape ?

didnt the ancyl say make babies?

 

[DarthCat]

15 years ago no one in my school were pregnant