Question regarding Islam

  • Thread starter Thread starter Fudzy
  • Start date Start date
Mr_Paris said:
Joy, dude, Relax.

Please try and look at it subjectively. You basing your opinions on what someone has said. Do some research please.
Click to expand...

We're basing our opinions on what you and Mineer are saying, and I think we understand just fine. As for the "1400 yrs ago islam would've been considered a feminist movement", that isn't relevent at all because we aren't living 1400 yrs ago. Today it is considered oppression, that is that.
 
HumanoidTyphoon said:
We're basing our opinions on what you and Mineer are saying, and I think we understand just fine. As for the "1400 yrs ago islam would've been considered a feminist movement", that isn't relevent at all because we aren't living 1400 yrs ago. Today it is considered oppression, that is that.
Click to expand...

Oh but it is, we are all products of our history. Its the same as saying that apartheid doesn't matter. It changed the way we live today, i believe that non-whites will forever hold the people that fought for this country's freedom very dearly even though they never experienced the oppression. What if people didn't oppose Aparthied? Who knows what type of country would have lived in today.
 
@humanoidtyphoon.In a sunday times article it was reported that a seemingly pro feminist country like France scored lower than Kazakstan when it came to equality.In fact they score as low as 150 odd in the world.I'm pretty sure that there are a few other muslim countries that scored above them as well.There are many cases of female exploitation in well to do countries that you don't here about because they're so well hidden.
 
There are some wonderful debates on Islam with Egyptian Coptic priest, Father Zakaria Botros (or Botrous or even Boutros in some spellings - it's Coptic for "Peter"), an expert who knows the Quran better than most mullahs. Here's a list of videos with him on various Middle Eastern TV channels. He's also on Pakistan.tv.

Also, take squizz at Jihad Watch.
 
oppression? lokl did you even read my post about about reading it again pls
Google definitions of contract or get dictionary meanings

whats that movie with George Cloonie about to divorce lawyers who fall in love and wanna get married watch that movie its light hearted way of understanding contract in marriage. maybe not the best example but I am trying to keep it relevant to the non-Muslim on this forum

Oh what a surprise, so islam view Marriage as a contract? isn't that just convenient for the male isn't it? By default Islam marriage is "out of community of property", so somehow among all the unfair rules and regulations that already Discriminate against Women , there is yet another situation where females lose out.
Click to expand...

huh can I make that a BIG HUH what are you talking about she has the right to change the defaulted terms and conditions of the contract, had she done so she would have found her self getting half of the property. She may have not known this rules, but if you sign a contract you are agreeing to be binded to those terms, whether you understand, or know about those rules or not.

Go to any lawyer ask them about binding contract terms and conditions, heck go to Vodacom and sign up a contract with them, you will find they don't explain every rule and regulation to you, unless you ask for an explanation, but once you have signed, meaning you agree,

I mention Vodacom cos that actually hits home for me. since signing up my cell bill rocketed from +/-R150 per month to +/-R600, I wanna get out of this stupid CONTRACT so I Phoned Vodacom during the week guess what I have to pay a penalty, I am like what, where, I don't remember some shiz like that, the Vodacom agent simply said in calm voice "do you want a copy of the terms and conditions", sounded like he was smiling in all honesty "I can even get the original with your signature on it" he continued. Sad situation really
 
Last edited:
Mr_Paris said:
Oh but it is, we are all products of our history. Its the same as saying that apartheid doesn't matter. It changed the way we live today, i believe that non-whites will forever hold the people that fought for this country's freedom very dearly even though they never experienced the oppression. What if people didn't oppose Aparthied? Who knows what type of country would have lived in today.
Click to expand...

Let me get this straight. You try to justify oppression today, by saying that it was not considered oppression 1400 yrs ago. Then you try to use pity and emotion by bringing up Apartheid. Then you try to equate the "irrelevance of yesterdays arguments which were based on completely different world views and perspectives", to me saying "it never mattered". Then you try to lump your own people in with blacks by classifying everyone who is non white together, which is a fallacy, and so is your suggestion that only non whites hold the people that fought for the country very dearly. What if people didn't oppose Apartheid? Irrelevant, they already did. I know what kinda country we would be if we didn't constantly look backwards, a country that votes based on the present, not on the past.
 
OK, let's cut through the bull****.

Imagine the following scenario -

1) Husband and wife gets married
2) Wife looks after the kids full-time, for 10 years
3) Husband works, accumulates an estate of R10m
4) Husband cheats on wife
5) Wife divorces husband

What are her rights in terms of the estate according to Islam? Is there a default position?
 
BOYAH said:
@humanoidtyphoon.In a sunday times article it was reported that a seemingly pro feminist country like France scored lower than Kazakstan when it came to equality.In fact they score as low as 150 odd in the world.I'm pretty sure that there are a few other muslim countries that scored above them as well.There are many cases of female exploitation in well to do countries that you don't here about because they're so well hidden.
Click to expand...

Kazakstan was #41


France was #46

Kazakstan is not Muslim theocracy, while Islam is the majority religion (little over half the population), it's government is secular.

Try as a might I cannot find a Muslim theocracy in the top 50, they seem to hover in the 100+

Sauce
 
SiriS said:
OK, let's cut through the bull****.

Imagine the following scenario -

1) Husband and wife gets married
2) Wife looks after the kids full-time, for 10 years
3) Husband works, accumulates an estate of R10m
4) Husband cheats on wife
5) Wife divorces husband

What are her rights in terms of the estate according to Islam? Is there a default position?
Click to expand...

It would be what ever is stipulated in the prenuptial agreement , as said before there is a default agreement which can be changed according to the needs of the couple, it can be as complex or as simple as they feel, ultimately both should agree before marriage takes place.

Let me put it in this way if a non-muslim should marry (to a non-muslim) into a "out of community of property" union what are her rights in terms of the estate according to western law

and what are the western laws if they marry "in of community of property" union,

both can applied to muslim law all that needs to take place is on the prenup it should be clearly stated that this couple wants to marry "in of community of property"
it just so happens the default is "out of community of property",
 
Last edited:
@siris.2:241 of the Quran says that after a divorce maintenance to the woman should continue to be provided on a reasonable scale which means that the more he has amassed the more he has to pay to her.
 
Mineer said:
oppression? lokl did you even read my post about about reading it again pls
Google definitions of contract or get dictionary meanings

whats that movie with George Cloonie about to divorce lawyers who fall in love and wanna get married watch that movie its light hearted way of understanding contract in marriage. maybe not the best example but I am trying to keep it relevant to the non-Muslim on this forum

huh can I make that a BIG HUH what are you talking about she has the right to change the defaulted terms and conditions of the contract, had she done so she would have found her self getting half of the property. She may have not known this rules, but if sign a contract you are agreeing to be binded to those terms, whether you understand, or know about those rules or not.
Click to expand...

I think you'll find that Roman Dutch law of contract is based on "intent" and not necessarily the letter of the contract. You cannot be bound to a contract that you do not understand, especially if your intent was otherwise.


Go to any lawyer ask them about binding contract terms and conditions,
Click to expand...

I've lunched with lawyers on occasion, you'll find you're wrong.

heck go to Vodacom and sign up a contract with them, you will find they don't explain every rule and regulation to you, unless you ask for an explanation, but once you have signed, meaning you agree,

I mention Vodacom cos that actually hits home for me. since signing up my cell bill rocketed from +/-R150 per month to +/-R600, I wanna get out of this stupid CONTRACT so I Phoned Vodacom during the week guess what I have to pay a penalty, I am like what where I don't remember some shiz like that, the Vodacom agent simply said in calm voice "do you want a copy of the terms and conditions", sounded like he was smiling in all honesty "I can even get the original with your signature on it" he continued. Sad situation really
Click to expand...

And you signed it without coersion in front of witnesses. If you were deliberately misled by the sales person you might have a case.
 
HumanoidTyphoon said:
Let me get this straight. You try to justify oppression today, by saying that it was not considered oppression 1400 yrs ago. Then you try to use pity and emotion by bringing up Apartheid. Then you try to equate the "irrelevance of yesterdays arguments which were based on completely different world views and perspectives", to me saying "it never mattered". Then you try to lump your own people in with blacks by classifying everyone who is non white together, which is a fallacy, and so is your suggestion that only non whites hold the people that fought for the country very dearly. What if people didn't oppose Apartheid? Irrelevant, they already did. I know what kinda country we would be if we didn't constantly look backwards, a country that votes based on the present, not on the past.
Click to expand...


I'm sorry but i don't really want to go into this, I am merely stating that non-whites (as they were the ones oppressed) are grateful for what people have done in order for them to gain freedom. I did not say whites are not grateful. Come on now.

All that I am saying that had it not been for certain laws, certain events, certain circumstances - Today would not have been what today is. You looking at Islam as if they oppress women but you are not looking at Islam if it has empowered women. That is my argument. I dont want to go anywhere else I don't want to talk about anything else, no lumping no nothing just an example I have used. Saying that what happened 1400 years ago does not affect today is not correct.
 
BOYAH said:
@siris.2:241 of the Quran says that after a divorce maintenance to the woman should continue to be provided on a reasonable scale which means that the more he has amassed the more he has to pay to her.
Click to expand...

Thanks Boyah


That kinda sums it up - verses 240 and 241 chapter 2
240. Those of you who die and leave widows should bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence; but if they leave (The residence), there is no blame on you for what they do with themselves, provided it is reasonable. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

241. For divorced women Maintenance (should be provided) on a reasonable (scale). This is a duty on the righteous.
Click to expand...
 
Mineer said:
It would be what ever is stipulated in the prenuptial agreement , as said before there is a default agreement which can be changed according to the needs of the couple, it can be as complex or as simple as they feel, ultimately both should agree before marriage takes place.

Let me put it in this way if a non-muslim should marry (to a non-muslim) into a "out of community of property" union what are her rights in terms of the estate according to western law

and what are the western laws if they marry "in of community of property" union,

both can applied to muslim law all that needs to take place is on the prenup it should be clearly stated that this couple wants to marry "in of community of property"
it just so happens the default is "out of community of property",
Click to expand...

The predominant SA (western?) position is ANC with accrual, in other words out of community of property, but with accrual since marriage. (which makes the most sense and is fair). If you don't specifically sign a prenup it defaults to "in community of property".

I assume the default "out of community of property" you refer to in terms of Islam excludes accrual?

http://www.antenuptial.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9&Itemid=8
 
@Mr Paris.You welcome.Written 1400 years ago but seems perfectly valid today.
 
And you signed it without coersion in front of witnesses. If you were deliberately misled by the sales person you might have a case.
Click to expand...

This is what I hope how most marriage's are being done, no deliberate misleading from what ever party involved. We are taking 2 people falling in love. and wanting to spend their lives together
 
SiriS said:
The predominant SA (western?) position is ANC with accrual, in other words out of community of property, but with accrual since marriage. (which makes the most sense and is fair). If you don't specifically sign a prenup it defaults to "in community of property".

I assume the default "out of community of property" you refer to in terms of Islam excludes accrual?

http://www.antenuptial.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9&Itemid=8
Click to expand...

honest answer is I don't know, but can and will find out for you, but with those verses mentioned there is some sort of accrual , again I will find out :)
any how I got to go have lekker weekend guys
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X