Retirement Annuity Fund

I would be very interested to know about how local RAs ( where most of your investment is virtually inaccessible until you are 55 or so ) would fare if the Rand were to start heading the way of the Zim dollar. ( Well maybe not THAT bad, but this is Africa! ).
 
I would be very interested to know about how local RAs ( where most of your investment is virtually inaccessible until you are 55 or so ) would fare if the Rand were to start heading the way of the Zim dollar. ( Well maybe not THAT bad, but this is Africa! ).

If you emigrate you are allowed to withdraw your funds, so you needn't worry your negative little mind about that... ;)
 
If you emigrate you are allowed to withdraw your funds, so you needn't worry your negative little mind about that... ;)

That's a non-answer. No need to get rude with the "little mind" bit - I did, after all, back off this thread to allow you to hold sway, remember.

Does anyone have a real answer?
 
That's a non-answer. No need to get rude with the "little mind" bit - I did, after all, back off this thread to allow you to hold sway, remember.

Does anyone have a real answer?

That is a real answer Rwen, what exactly would you like to hear?

If any country goes the way of Zimbabwe everything will be affected, companies, property values, everything, so obviously your RAs would be affected as you would have exposure to these. I am not going to analyse each asset class individually but the recent slump in the rand against the dollar would have given an inkling of what would happen. You could of course have offshore exposure in your portfolio which would not be affected so there is no simple answer.

You need to perhaps state what you real concern is. The bigger danger is not doing anything for retirement and not being able to retire financially independent. This is something you have direct control over, what happens to this country you do not!

Bottom line is you can emigrate and access your funds, your main premise seemed to be that your money would be stuck here. Well it wouldn't!

And you had no need to back off any thread so I am not really sure what was implied by that. By all means post what you must on any thread you must. Don't stop on my account. I will happily retort all day long if need be.
 
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That is a real answer Rwen, what exactly would you like to hear?

If any country goes the way of Zimbabwe everything will be affected, companies, property values, everything, so obviously your RAs would be affected as you would have exposure to these. I am not going to analyse each asset class individually but the recent slump in the rand against the dollar would have given an inkling of what would happen. You could of course have offshore exposure in your portfolio which would not be affected so there is no simple answer.

You need to perhaps state what you real concern is. The bigger danger is not doing anything for retirement and not being able to retire financially independent. This is something you have direct control over, what happens to this country you do not!

Bottom line is you can emigrate and access your funds, your main premise seemed to be that your money would be stuck here. Well it wouldn't!

I mentioned nothing about emigrating.

I am trying to understand what happens to one's RA investments in a situation where the local currency devalues a lot, where inflation gets out of hand, and where the govt starts eyeing its citizens' foreign currency and starts getting sticky about taking money out of the country.

From what I can see, if you own a property in Salis... er.. Harare ( just kidding! ), it retains something of its value, even if you add a few zeros to the price every so often. Demand might have dropped, but there is still value. What happened to people's RAs in Zim?

I ask out of ignorance, not out of trying to stir. I feel it is important for people to think about the retention of value in their long term investments, and to consider issues like this in some way. I remember in the 70's when OPEC started their price manipulations ( 1973 oil crisis, wasn't it? ) and inflation started going up and up. MANY people on pensions were quite stuffed. Plenty ex-Zim people have been forced down here with very little. Would your beloved RAs have helped?

Well I'll leave this thread to Rwen then, as he seems to have the ultimate solution for retiring financially independent and has all the answers.

I will happily retort all day long if need be.

Does not compute.
 
Rwen, yip perhaps your last comment is correct, it does not compute and I think my initial comment was perhaps the more sensible one. I am not going to sit here on a Saturday trying to convince someone, seemingly against their will, that RAs have a place. You invest where you feel it is best... just please try not to discourage other people from exploring all avenues by playing on fears like Zim etc!

It may be wonderful to think that those property values in Zim have kept up with inflation but tell me how many buyers you are going to find? Property values are wonderful in theory but meaningless until you find a buyer! You cannot retire and eat on theoretical values!
 
Rwen, yip perhaps your last comment is correct, it does not compute and I think my initial comment was perhaps the more sensible one. I am not going to sit here on a Saturday trying to convince someone, seemingly against their will, that RAs have a place. You invest where you feel it is best... just please try not to discourage other people from exploring all avenues by playing on fears like Zim etc!

It may be wonderful to think that those property values in Zim have kept up with inflation but tell me how many buyers you are going to find? Property values are wonderful in theory but meaningless until you find a buyer! You cannot retire and eat on theoretical values!

I'll take that as "I haven't a clue".

Does anyone else know what happens in those circumstances? Can RA-type investments hold value? Or do you just cash in your retirement savings and buy a loaf of bread?
 
Rwen if you read my post you will see I did cover this.... there is no way I am going to go into detail with you as from experience I can tell that you only see what you want to see so it will be a waste of my time..... there are none so blind as those who will not see!!!! I am not learning anything from this conversation with you and if you are not willing to listen then there is no point in bothering...


You know what, all the best with your investing.... have fun finding someone who says what you want them to!
 
Rwen if you read my post you will see I did cover this.... there is no way I am going to go into detail with you as from experience I can tell that you only see what you want to see so it will be a waste of my time..... there are none so blind as those who will not see!!!! I am not learning anything from this conversation with you and if you are not willing to listen then there is no point in bothering...


You know what, all the best with your investing.... have fun finding someone who says what you want them to!

Whatever, Lancelot. I would say much the same of you. One asks an honest question of the investment boffins, and you get this sort of response. Bleh!

If anyone else can give me a straight answer, and some explanation of the mechanisms that come into play in those situations, I'd be interested. TIA.
 
... They don't know any better. Money-market will always merely track inflation - nice little hedge in volatile times if you like, but not much of an investment, especially over the long term. ...

Correct me if I am wrong but are we not in volatile times at the moment? No one suggested the money market as a long term investment!
 
Oh dear a sure fire way of deciding whether you should be concerned about your broker is if he uses past performance as his reason for investing you in a particular portfolio... this is the same guy who would have invested you in tech stocks before they collapsed and anything offshore when the rand seemed like it was on a one way street versus the dollar...

Remember past performances are exactly that and are in no way indicative of possible future performances! They can be used to see how a portfolio has performed in it's sector when compared to it's peers but nothing more. Your portfolio choice should be based on a number of factors the most important being your risk profile and propensity for risk, your investment horizon as well as your investment objective.

Nicely put. I agree 100%
 
117.jpg

If this graph is my only information, I would definately suggest to put your money in the money market. Please remember that the money market is a short term investment. (So look only at the 2008 portion of this graph)

Finally, and this is for the people who feel they can time the markets, this graph shows what would have happened to your investment if you had been out of the market for various lengths of time when it makes a recovery compared to someone who had stayed fully invested and ridden our the storm. The bottom line is that most people do not get the timing right and end up missing the boat when the markets turn! Bear in mind of of this relates to long term investing and not trading.

48.jpg

This graph is fundamentally flawed, as the person who thinks (s)he can time the market, will in most likelyhood also miss some of the worst days of the market.
 
Rwen if you read my post you will see I did cover this.... there is no way I am going to go into detail with you as from experience I can tell that you only see what you want to see so it will be a waste of my time..... there are none so blind as those who will not see!!!! I am not learning anything from this conversation with you and if you are not willing to listen then there is no point in bothering...


You know what, all the best with your investing.... have fun finding someone who says what you want them to!

Now you are being petty! You did not answer his question (What happened to RAs). You are obviously very quick to jump on the emigrate or shut up bandwagon.
 
Whatever, Lancelot. I would say much the same of you. One asks an honest question of the investment boffins, and you get this sort of response. Bleh!

If anyone else can give me a straight answer, and some explanation of the mechanisms that come into play in those situations, I'd be interested. TIA.

Sorry. I do not have any idea what happened in Zim, but it would be a nice case study to see how the different investment options compare to each other.
 
It may be wonderful to think that those property values in Zim have kept up with inflation but tell me how many buyers you are going to find? Property values are wonderful in theory but meaningless until you find a buyer! You cannot retire and eat on theoretical values!

Forgive me for returning to an earlier post, but I think you miss the point and do not understand how markets work. The property "values" I referred to are not imaginary, wishful figures plucked out of nowhere - a market is a mechanism, if you will, that finds the price-point acceptable to both buyer and seller, mediating between the supply and the demand.
 
I would be very interested to know about how local RAs ( where most of your investment is virtually inaccessible until you are 55 or so ) would fare if the Rand were to start heading the way of the Zim dollar. ( Well maybe not THAT bad, but this is Africa! ).

U can choose how you want your RA's invested, so depends on your choice I guess.
 
U can choose how you want your RA's invested, so depends on your choice I guess.

Is it not still the case that there is a govt. regulated ( high ) percentage of these funds that has to be invested within the country? If so, your choices are actually severely limited.
 
If this graph is my only information, I would definately suggest to put your money in the money market. Please remember that the money market is a short term investment. (So look only at the 2008 portion of this graph)

This graph is fundamentally flawed, as the person who thinks (s)he can time the market, will in most likelyhood also miss some of the worst days of the market.

Your whole idea of money market is wonderful Zam but when is someone likely to move into money market? After the horse has bolted!! All that is going to mean is that they will be tying in their loses, which have already happened! Yes, the markets could move lower and they could be protected from this, however when are they likely to move back into equities? Experience tells one that this will happen only after markets have recovered! So again they will have missed most of the recovery after having tied in their initial loses!

Now remember too that we are making blanket generalisations here and failing to differentiate between recurring (monthly contributions) and lump sum (single contribution) business. Your argument may be slightly more valid when it comes to lump sum business, but again with lump sum business one would normally err on the side of caution. However this thread is about RAs and therefore one would assume it was lump sum business. So now if you are contributing on a monthly basis then a drop in the market should not bother you at all if you are in the portfolio that matches your risk profile (bearing in mind that a major factor in deciding this is term of investment!) as this would mean you would be buying your units at progressively cheaper prices as the markets sinks.

You will find that market confidence ALWAYS only picks up after the markets have recovered! So now you tell me how you are going to time the move back into equities unless you have a crystal ball. You'll miss the boat!

I know words bore some people, so here is another graph to look at which posted before.

Investor.jpg


A brief explanation :

The orange graphs show movement of funds into bond funds (conservative)
The pink graphs show movement of funds into equity funds (aggressive)
The black bars show the market movements.

If one analyses this you can see that in about Feb 03 when markets were at their absolute lowest people were pumping money into bonds! It was only long after markets started recovering between Feb 03 and Feb 04 that money started flowing into equities. Let me use a nice age old cliche : It is time in the markets, not timing the markets that makes you money!!!

Even Warren Buffet, who knows a lot more about investing than most of us ever will, often uses Wayne Gretsky's, the greatest ice hockey player ever, quote about how he became the best hockey player when referring to investing:

“I skate to where the puck is going to be, not to where it has been.”


Now you are being petty! You did not answer his question (What happened to RAs). You are obviously very quick to jump on the emigrate or shut up bandwagon.

That answer is far from petty and was in fact me being totally honest!

What you need to understand is that RAs are not a type of investment portfolio! They are an investment vehicle via which one can get access to fairly limitless portfolios. So to answer this question would be impossible without analysing the effect of a substantial drop in the Rand across all asset classes, market sectors etc. Now, I could do this, but as stated I really do not think Rwen is interested in that much detail in the answer he seeks. Rwen sings the praises of property but fails to realise that you could have a substantial portion of your RA invested in property portfolios if you desire. As stated you could also have a large portion (now limited though) in offshore portfolios. As much as you wish it would, this question does not have the easy answer you seek!

My opinion, and yes it is just that, is that the whole Zim angle was taken merely as a side swipe at the whole RAs being beneficial argument! If SA goes the way of Zim you will have to worry about every asset you own and not just your RAs. Your RAs are held in funds which are administered by trustees. These trustees have an obligation to protect your retirement savings so they may still well be your most protected asset.
 
Rwen if some militant comes and "repossesses" your house it will be worth nothing! As I have stated NO investment will be safe if we go the way of Zim! You appear to just have a desire to knock RAs for some reason....
 
Rwen if some militant comes and "repossesses" your house it will be worth nothing! As I have stated NO investment will be safe if we go the way of Zim! You appear to just have a desire to knock RAs for some reason....


Sentence 1. You are just being childish. I will grant you that the prices are shown as "$0.00", presumably because of the insane inflation, but go look at some examples. Not every property in Zim has been taken over by "war vets" LOL.

Sentence 2. You are quite wrong, and that is one reason why I have been asking about Zim. Before things start collapsing, or in case they do, it might be wise to invest offshore ( within or outside of the legal regulations ). Hard assets also help, especially if out of the country. When things do start to go pear-shaped, countries typically restrict any outflows of wealth.

Sentence 3. As I have stated, I have money invested in RAs. I would like to know how such investments fare when things start going wrong. I would guess that a lot of value is lost, given that a high percentage is invested within the country, and that within the country foreign investment drops, production drops etc etc. But I don't know - I have asked, and I'd still like to find out.

The bigger danger is not doing anything for retirement and not being able to retire financially independent. This is something you have direct control over, what happens to this country you do not!

Precisely. RAs have their place, but one must also realise that one is living in a country that is in all likelihood still going to go through quite a lot of social upheaval. Inflation is on a roll. Numerous other political factors create additional risk. If one is to retire independently, I would suggest that such things are also considered.

I remember my father-in-law retiring. Thankfully, he had invested independently in a big way, but the pension that he had been paying into for decades was soon down to just enough to pay the domestic landscaping assistant his weekly wage. It became a standing joke.
 
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