Scottish Referendum on Independence

Should Scotland be an independent country?

  • Yes

    Votes: 59 53.2%
  • No

    Votes: 52 46.8%

  • Total voters
    111
  • Poll closed .
SCOTLAND'S INDEPENDENCE VOTE PUTS UK UNION ON EDGE

Breaking up is hard to do, especially after 307 years. The entire United Kingdom will find out just how hard if Scotland chooses independence in Thursday's vote.

WHAT'S AT STAKE

A Yes vote will trigger 18 months of negotiations between Scottish leaders and London-based politicians on how the two countries will separate their institutions ahead of Scotland's planned Independence Day of March 24, 2016. The issues range from whether Scotland will use the pound as its currency to how much U.K. debt it should take on to how the military will be split up - and the results will affect all of the U.K.'s 64 million people, not just the 5.3 million in Scotland. A Yes vote will also ripple across the 28-nation European Union and NATO and boost independence movements around the world, including in Spain's Catalonia region or Flanders in Belgium.

CENTURIES OF UNION

The parliaments of Scotland and England passed the Acts of Union that led to the creation of Great Britain in 1707 after centuries of conflict, which saw the rise of Scottish heroes like William "Braveheart" Wallace and Robert the Bruce. The union grew to become a great empire in which Scots took a leading role as inventors, artists, doctors, missionaries, engineers and intellectuals - producing luminaires such as economist Adam Smith, author Sir Walter Scott and poet Robert Burns. The global empire thrived on shipbuilding and manufacturing but fell apart after World War II as nations outside the British Isles demanded independence. Scotland has had its own parliament since 1999, although the U.K. government retains control of issues such as foreign policy, defense, immigration, trade and industry.

TRUTH AND CONSEQUENCES

Now, after 307 years of union, voters are being asked the following question: Should Scotland be an independent country? Only Scottish residents are eligible to vote but people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland will find that the outcome changes their lives as well. It could alter the balance of power in British politics, weaken the nation's economy and ultimately trigger a separate vote on whether the U.K. should leave the European Union.

NO DOES NOT MEAN THE STATUS QUO

Britain's political leaders have promised Scotland's government more powers if voters opt to stay. As opinion polls tightened in recent days, the leaders of the three main political parties in Westminster issued a statement guaranteeing "extensive new powers" to the Scottish parliament, promising to share the nation's resources "equitably," and pledging that Scottish leaders would control funding for the National Health Service in Scotland.

WILL THE POUND TAKE A POUNDING?

One of the most contentious issues has been whether an independent Scotland would retain the pound as its currency. U.K. leaders have said there will be no currency union. Independence leader Alex Salmond argues this is simply a campaign tactic and that politicians in Westminster will eventually agree to a currency union because it is best for both countries. Major employers such as Standard Life and the Royal Bank of Scotland have said they will move their headquarters to England if independence passes because of economic concerns.

Howard Archer, chief UK and European economist for IHS Global Insight, said there's likely to be a major market reaction either way: "A vote for independence is likely to result in a further appreciable sterling sell-off; a vote for Scotland to remain in the UK is likely to lead to a significant relief rally for the pound."

A BOON FOR CONSERVATIVES?

Critics have called for Prime Minister David Cameron's head if the U.K. loses Scotland - but Britain's left-leaning Labour Party would also pay a high price. Scottish voters elected 41 Labour members of Parliament in the 2010 election and only one Conservative. Eliminating those Scottish votes would give the Conservatives a 37-seat majority in Parliament and allow them to form the next government without a coalition. In the long term, the loss of Scotland would make it more difficult for Labour to win future elections, potentially ushering in an era of conservative, pro-business government in Britain.

ANOTHER HIGH STAKES VOTE IN THE MAKING

A Conservative victory in 2015 would also drag Britain into yet another high-stakes vote. Cameron has promised a referendum on EU membership to appease voters who are concerned about immigration and meddling by bureaucrats in Brussels. Scotland has been very pro-EU, so losing those votes would weaken the camp that wants Britain to stay. Any British exit from the EU would have huge consequences for its economy. The EU guarantees freedom of movement for people, goods and money, making it simpler to do business across the bloc and its 500 million people.

NORTH SEA OIL - RICHES OR NO?

Salmond, the independence leader, has argued that Scotland should receive as much as 94 percent of the tax revenue generated by North Sea oil and gas production, which would help fund day-to-day government spending, with any surplus going to a fund for future generations. The independence campaign estimates that there are more than 21 billion barrels of oil equivalent in its portion of the North Sea with a market value of almost 1.3 trillion pounds.

But the windfall may not be as great as independence advocates hope, according to analysis by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research. While Scotland's share of North Sea revenue would have been as much as 7.4 billion pounds in recent years, an independent Scotland would lose 7.1 billion pounds a year in transfer payments it gets from the rest of the U.K., according to NIESR. In addition, North Sea revenues are likely to decline in coming years as production slows, meaning Scotland may receive as little as 2.8 billion pounds in 2016-17.

NATO AND NO NUKES

The independence campaign supports continued membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, provided it isn't required to base nuclear weapons in Scotland. The country's strategic location would make it a "key partner in NATO's air and naval policing arrangements for northern Europe," independence advocates say. Still, if Scotland is nuclear-free, the U.K. would have to move its Trident nuclear missiles away from Faslane in western Scotland.


Source : Sapa-AP /kd
Date : 18 Sep 2014 07:48
 
Counting starts immediately after that, with the first results expected around 2am, with Eilean Siar, North Lanarkshire, Inverclyde, Orkney, East Lothian, Perth and Kinross, and Moray vying to be the first local authority to declare.

The results are cumulative – it’s a simple question of who gets more votes: yes or no.

But we probably won’t know for certain until the final results come in for three big cities that make up around a quarter of the electorate: Edinburgh and Glasgow at around 5am, and Aberdeen at 6am.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...tish-independence-referendum-polling-day-live

Mortymoose hopefully you will still be awake at 6am & 7am :p
 
Last edited:
Oh I don't know, maybe the 'silly populist vote' comment got my goat up. That or even thinking that it's up to David Cameron, the Conservatives, the Queen or anyone else but the people of Scotland to decide what the Scottish people want to do.
The people of Scotland voted for devolution of power in 1997
The Scottish people voted the SNP into office in 2007.
The SNP increased their majority in 2011 on the independence referendum ticket.
We have a referendum.
What on earth has that got to do with David Cameron or anyone else?
I wouldn't underplay the importance of Cameron and everything that his style of politics represents on a resurgence of Scottish nationalism. A refusal of both Westminster and Whitehall to acknowledge that England, Wales and Scotland and (Northern) Ireland are constituent nations of the United Kingdom (and there is the entire Cornwell issue as well) and attempts at rendered Edinburgh a provincial capital don't help things at all.

Moreover Tony Blair ran an administration that sought to hold a union by delivering more welfare powers to Scotland while taking away real Scottish institutions
Before 1997 Labour were very much on a union ticket (mind the pun :D) but as part of their destruction of all that is "undemocratic" push hitched onto the devolution premise - which it used as a dangle to get an increase in support. One thing which is quite important about devolution though is that no real powers that the State ought to have that were not already devolved (police, education and law have been Scottish throughout). In actual fact with changes to the House of Lords in reality Scotland saw real sovereign issues which had historically been handled with a Scots flavour (for example in judicial proceedings before the House of Lords arising out of the Court of Session or the High Court of Justiciary different customs were adopted than from the "Royal Courts") loose that element: the term advocate is now being used in UK statute to refer to a solicitor who is appearing in a superior court - as opposed to a properly learned man of the law, Scotsmen for years had come down to take up law as specialist barristers but to see "legal executives" on the ticket to being called "advocates" is gravely problematic. St Andrew's was pushed to increase its student numbers and the statutory isolation of the ancient Scottish universities was threatened by a proposed repeal of the already toned down 1968 legislation. While Scotland has seen an assembly formed the uniformity ticket of Blair damaged a lot of its ancient character and Cameron has followed up on this damage.

During the 19th century Scottish sovereignty was taken as the default position at law. It was British institutions upon which a British empire was built. In fact much controversy in the American colonies concerned the "encroachment" by Westminster on the rights of Englishmen in the Americas.

British law fro 1707 was an evolution of Scottish influence on a traditional English narrative -- this is probably nowhere clearer than in the tenure of Lord Mansfield as Chief Justice of England and Wales (a Scotsman - born and bred as William Murray whose rise in law took place as a "dual pleader" in the House of Lords: an expert on Scots and English Law). It was the bankrupt Scottish Parliament (the Estates) that was absorbed into an English institution.

The reality now is not much different to how it has been since the inception of the Union - England cannot expand without Scotland but Westminster refuses to treat Scotland in a manner that reflects the character of the British Isles. What has happened over the last 40 years has been an attempt to create a welfare Scottish vassal while holding real power in Whitehall.
 
If I switch to whisky drinking instead of the beer, I can go 50 hours nae bother..... but I am an older gent these days and will try to take a wee nap for a few hours this afternoon in order to stay the course..... when HO Logs off for the night, on go the Headphones, in goes the water of life and I shall attempt to rack up that phone bill to Glasgow! :D
 
I wouldn't underplay the importance of Cameron and everything that his style of politics represents on a resurgence of Scottish nationalism. A refusal of both Westminster and Whitehall to acknowledge that England, Wales and Scotland and (Northern) Ireland are constituent nations of the United Kingdom (and there is the entire Cornwell issue as well) and attempts at rendered Edinburgh a provincial capital don't help things at all.

Moreover Tony Blair ran an administration that sought to hold a union by delivering more welfare powers to Scotland while taking away real Scottish institutions
Before 1997 Labour were very much on a union ticket (mind the pun :D) but as part of their destruction of all that is "undemocratic" push hitched onto the devolution premise - which it used as a dangle to get an increase in support. One thing which is quite important about devolution though is that no real powers that the State ought to have that were not already devolved (police, education and law have been Scottish throughout). In actual fact with changes to the House of Lords in reality Scotland saw real sovereign issues which had historically been handled with a Scots flavour (for example in judicial proceedings before the House of Lords arising out of the Court of Session or the High Court of Justiciary different customs were adopted than from the "Royal Courts") loose that element: the term advocate is now being used in UK statute to refer to a solicitor who is appearing in a superior court - as opposed to a properly learned man of the law, Scotsmen for years had come down to take up law as specialist barristers but to see "legal executives" on the ticket to being called "advocates" is gravely problematic. St Andrew's was pushed to increase its student numbers and the statutory isolation of the ancient Scottish universities was threatened by a proposed repeal of the already toned down 1968 legislation. While Scotland has seen an assembly formed the uniformity ticket of Blair damaged a lot of its ancient character and Cameron has followed up on this damage.

During the 19th century Scottish sovereignty was taken as the default position at law. It was British institutions upon which a British empire was built. In fact much controversy in the American colonies concerned the "encroachment" by Westminster on the rights of Englishmen in the Americas.

British law fro 1707 was an evolution of Scottish influence on a traditional English narrative -- this is probably nowhere clearer than in the tenure of Lord Mansfield as Chief Justice of England and Wales (a Scotsman - born and bred as William Murray whose rise in law took place as a "dual pleader" in the House of Lords: an expert on Scots and English Law). It was the bankrupt Scottish Parliament (the Estates) that was absorbed into an English institution.

The reality now is not much different to how it has been since the inception of the Union - England cannot expand without Scotland but Westminster refuses to treat Scotland in a manner that reflects the character of the British Isles. What has happened over the last 40 years has been an attempt to create a welfare Scottish vassal while holding real power in Whitehall.

And if you look at the negative campaigning and high number of undecided votes, it is quite clear they have succeeded making the Scots believe it and have instilled enough doubt to probably pull off a 'no'.

Interesting read, thanks Paul.
 
Moreover Tony Blair ran an administration that sought to hold a union by delivering more welfare powers to Scotland while taking away real Scottish institutions

This bit doesnt make sense. What important Scottish institutions did Tony Blair take away? Seems strange that labour would take away when Scotland is a labour stronghold. Could you please clarify this statement.
 
Sorry, last video clip, was in the moment......

Brilliant, I loved Ricky Fulton. Scotch 'n Wry on Hogmany was legendary.

I was showing the kids some Stanley Baxter the other night. Also brilliant and stands the test of time easy...

Parliamo Glasgow, how to speak Scottish :D

[video=youtube;TfCk_yNuTGk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfCk_yNuTGk[/video]
 
This bit doesnt make sense. What important Scottish institutions did Tony Blair take away? Seems strange that labour would take away when Scotland is a labour stronghold. Could you please clarify this statement.
I thought I gave plenty of examples:
Under Blair: the customs of the Scottish Courts were subjected to "reform" - the Lord Advocate wasn't even consulted before the Human Rights Act was taken to Cabinet; foreign policy was moved around in office and politicized (contravening 200 years of practice); Scottish regiments were subsumed as part of "efficiency"; differences between Scottish and English banking laws were consolidated out in legislation; the Universities found themselves having to deliver troves of horse**** to Whitehall. Devolution was all about giving powers that shouldn't be governments to begin with out.

Something else I had actually forgotten was the amount of corruption involved in constructing the new "Scottish" institutions (which aren't really Scottish at all)
 
I thought I gave plenty of examples:
Under Blair: the customs of the Scottish Courts were subjected to "reform" - the Lord Advocate wasn't even consulted before the Human Rights Act was taken to Cabinet; foreign policy was moved around in office and politicized (contravening 200 years of practice); Scottish regiments were subsumed as part of "efficiency"; differences between Scottish and English banking laws were consolidated out in legislation; the Universities found themselves having to deliver troves of horse**** to Whitehall. Devolution was all about giving powers that shouldn't be governments to begin with out.

Something else I had actually forgotten was the amount of corruption involved in constructing the new "Scottish" institutions (which aren't really Scottish at all)

Funny, same can be said of Tony. He forgot he was Scottish and so has everyone else. So much so he has not been seen in Scotland for the whole campaign as he was considered too 'toxic' by his masters in Westminster.
 
As an Englishman, i personally hope that the Scots get their independence.
 
Funny, same can be said of Tony. He forgot he was Scottish and so has everyone else. So much so he has not been seen in Scotland for the whole campaign as he was considered too 'toxic' by his masters in Westminster.

And sadly, that cannot be said of others whose presence has actually strengthened the Yes vote.
 
The issue over currency in my humble opinion is a no brainer, what is wrong with adopting the Scottish Pound and then just linking it 1:1 with the British Pound, like we do with the Namibian Dollar? We use both currencies in Namibia!

Making an issue to scare potential YES voters.... not rocket science this stuff.... ;)
 
I thought I gave plenty of examples:
Under Blair: the customs of the Scottish Courts were subjected to "reform" - the Lord Advocate wasn't even consulted before the Human Rights Act was taken to Cabinet; foreign policy was moved around in office and politicized (contravening 200 years of practice); Scottish regiments were subsumed as part of "efficiency"; differences between Scottish and English banking laws were consolidated out in legislation; the Universities found themselves having to deliver troves of horse**** to Whitehall. Devolution was all about giving powers that shouldn't be governments to begin with out.

Something else I had actually forgotten was the amount of corruption involved in constructing the new "Scottish" institutions (which aren't really Scottish at all)

Could you link to the information so I can become more educated. As I understand it, things used to be a lot worse. These used to be a verse in God save the queen that used to have to do with conquering the scots and there even worse things.

I do know the Scottish bank was bailed out by the the english banks and I think they own 20% of the bank of Scotland, so I understand some reform happened, but I thought that was post Blair. But yeah, Ill become more educated when you can link the wikipedia literature.
 
The issue over currency in my humble opinion is a no brainer, what is wrong with adopting the Scottish Pound and then just linking it 1:1 with the British Pound, like we do with the Namibian Dollar? We use both currencies in Namibia!

Making an issue to scare potential YES voters.... not rocket science this stuff.... ;)
Although there are some risks to this approach, a lot of the issues that have been brought up have been just silliness personified.

Basically implying 'if you do this, we will no longer be friends and you will not be able to see your friends and family on our side. Also, your groceries are gonna cost more and the Berlin wall is gonna come up between us' Kind of like how I address my toddler
 
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X