Self defence units

[KalMaverick]

It doesnt look like that concept is well respected

But you are correct, public schools are government buildings and all government buildings are gun free zones.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but you get Firearm Free Zones that are declared as such by some minister, s140 afaik, but schools are apparently not included.

Then you get Firearm Free Zones as applied for, s109 iirc, which most places are, including schools.

However the differences are the penalties, carrying a gun on a FFZ in terms of s140 is immediately a criminal offence, however in terms of s109 you can only be asked to leave the premises.

Declaring schools a FFZ is not solely about removing guns from schools but also what can be done to those that ignore the law and the power given to others by such law.

For example:

A) A man walks into a school with a gun (that applied to be a FFZ) you as an individual can do nothing, it's not a criminal offence, so all you can do is hope the man does not have bad intentions.

B) A man walks into a school with a gun (s140 declared as such) you as an individual or anyone else for that matter, can immediately detain him, whether his intentions are good or not doesn't matter, you have the power to detain and the police can sort it out.

Sure, criminals will be criminals and obviously will ignore whatever they feel like but that's just one aspect of the situation, there are other facets to the law that people here should keep in mind.

EDIT: It appears places can voluntarily declare their premises GFZ (Gun Free Zones) and no formal application is needed (no criminal penalties for having a firearm on the premises) or can apply in terms of s109 to have it declared a FFZ which carries the same penalties as places declared by the minister, ie a criminal offence.

[-]So in other words schools can very well be FFZ if they applied as such but not automatically FFZs.[/-] Updated: Doesn't appear any schools are FFZs, only GFZs.

 

[srothman]

EDIT: It appears places can voluntarily declare their premises GFZ (Gun Free Zones) and no formal application is needed (no criminal penalties for having a firearm on the premises) or can apply in terms of s109 to have it declared a FFZ which carries the same penalties as places declared by the minister, ie a criminal offence.

So in other words schools can very well be FFZ if they applied as such but not automatically FFZs.

This is not correct. A place can call itself Never-never Land, it doesn't make it so. Stop trying to interpret the law in a way that suits you. The bottom line, unless it is noted in the Government Gazette, it is NOT a gun-free zone, and this is the case as far as schools are concerned.

 

[OCP]

This is not correct. A place can call itself Never-never Land, it doesn't make it so. Stop trying to interpret the law in a way that suits you. The bottom line, unless it is noted in the Government Gazette, it is NOT a gun-free zone, and this is the case as far as schools are concerned.

+1

Between the missing ANC arm caches from the apartheid times + our porous borders to the thousands of guns our military and SAPS lose every year this country will never be gun free = reality.

Even if by magic all firearms were removed the criminals would not stop plying their trade and would use knives/stones = the issue is one of crime, violence and illegal guns... not legal gun control.

No ammount of signs and unenforceable laws are going to stop a bad guy with a gun/knive/whatever - only a good guy with adequate means to counter can.

Nb.
Privately owned firearms are also lost and stolen each year and while each loat firearm is one to many this number was insignificant (will post link shortly) compared to the above numbers and banning all private guns would have prevented thousands of people from successfully protecting themselves.

 

[KalMaverick]

This is not correct. A place can call itself Never-never Land, it doesn't make it so. Stop trying to interpret the law in a way that suits you. The bottom line, unless it is noted in the Government Gazette, it is NOT a gun-free zone, and this is the case as far as schools are concerned.

A school can call itself a Gun Free Zone if it wishes, if you are on their premises and you have a gun they may ask you to leave, if you do not it will be trespassing. In this case it is not a criminal offence to be on the premises with a firearm.

A school can also apply to be a Firearm Free Zone, if you are on the premises with a gun it is then a criminal offence.

The minister can also declare schools Firearm Free Zones, such as schools, then they automatically become FFZ even if they didn't apply for it.

I understand what you mean though, it appears that either no school has applied to be a FFZ or no application has been successful, however most schools are still Gun Free Zones (which doesn't carry criminal penalties, they can just ask you to leave).

 

[srothman]

Do they prohibit the carry of firearms? Yes. Are they gun-free zones? No.

 

[KalMaverick]

Do they prohibit the carry of firearms? Yes. Are they gun-free zones? No.

There's a difference between Gun Free Zones and Firearm Free Zones. Civil vs criminal.

So yes, they are in fact Gun Free Zones. Just like most universities, banks, schools, etc.

 

[srothman]

There's a difference between Gun Free Zones and Firearm Free Zones. Civil vs criminal.

So yes, they are in fact Gun Free Zones. Just like most universities, banks, schools, etc.

Please help me understand the difference between a gun and a firearm, in the context of this argument.

So what you're saying is that I can take a "gun" to a "firearm"-free zone, and vice versa, and I will then be coloring inside the lines, so to speak?

Make peace with it friends, as long as I conform to the regulations stipulated in terms of the FCA as far as carrying a firearm I public is concerned, I am well within the law to do so at schools, churches, old-age homes, ....

I'll say it again. You are confusing the property owner/legal occupier's right to reserve admission to their property.

If I am asked if I am carrying a firearm (and this has happened on several occasions), I will always admit it, and if I am asked to leave I will do so without putting up a fuss. Not because of the illusion of being a gun- or firearm-free zone, but because I respect other people's rights to have who they want or don't want on their property.

 

[OCP]

There's a difference between Gun Free Zones and Firearm Free Zones. Civil vs criminal.

So yes, they are in fact Gun Free Zones. Just like most universities, banks, schools, etc.

Please quote your source as none of the banks I frequent have ever denied me access. Once a guard with a wand asked to scan me - I informed him I was carying - he asked to see my license and after inspecting it told me to have a nice day whilst allowing me entry.

The owner of private property decides on right of admission - nothing to do with gun/firearm free zones.
Same reason they can ask me to leave if I strip naked and start playing bongo drums.

Again (hopefully for the last time): only NKP's and some goverment offices are gazetted as "gun free zones".

There are no malls, schools, banks, places of work that are "gun free zones" as per goverment decree.

 

[KalMaverick]

Wow guys can you learn to read.

I'll say it so you can hopefully get it...

A GUN FREE ZONE is just a way of saying we reserve the right to kick your ass out of here if you have a gun, don't cry and say "but you had no signs'.

A FIREARM FREE ZONE is a way of saying by virtue of the FCA if you are here with a gun your are committing an offence.

We're saying the same thing here except you two are too pigheaded to understand there's a difference, schools, banks, universities are mostly GUN FREE ZONES (ie they declare themselves as GUN FREE and put signs up to warn you). GUN FREE ZONE being they are warning you guns are not welcome and can ask you to leave or in case of universities expel you due to contravening their rules (you can't cry foul because there is ample warning that it's a GUN FREE ZONE).

As I said (read up and see my posts again which I corrected ages ago) there aren't FFZs (yet) but plenty of GFZs. However as I said (once again read) it's not a criminal offence to have a gun in a GFZ.

The owner of private property decides on right of admission - nothing to do with gun/firearm free zones.
Same reason they can ask me to leave if I strip naked and start playing bongo drums.

A school can call itself a Gun Free Zone if it wishes, if you are on their premises and you have a gun they may ask you to leave, if you do not it will be trespassing. In this case it is not a criminal offence to be on the premises with a firearm.

Wow look at that... Exactly what I said already...

 

[D3x!]

can you all go fsck yourselves and get back on topic? kthxbai

 

[srothman]

Wow guys can you learn to read.

I'll say it so you can hopefully get it...

A GUN FREE ZONE is just a way of saying we reserve the right to kick your ass out of here if you have a gun, don't cry and say "but you had no signs'.

A FIREARM FREE ZONE is a way of saying by virtue of the FCA if you are here with a gun your are committing an offence.

Snip

*facepalm*

It's beginning to hurt trying to explain this to you.
Let's agree to disagree and move on, we're not getting anywhere.

 

[d7e7r7]

Saflyfish - if you can afford to, get some pepper spray for the mean time but in the new year go and do proficiency training, purchase a 2nd hand firearm and apply for competency and your license.

Plenty people will help with your motivation if you need help. The whole licensing process is taking about 3 months max these days, 1 month at your local station, 1 month at provincial and 1 month at Pretoria (CFR).

 

[YashinM]

Saflyfish - if you can afford to, get some pepper spray for the mean time but in the new year go and do proficiency training, purchase a 2nd hand firearm and apply for competency and your license.

Plenty people will help with your motivation if you need help. The whole licensing process is taking about 3 months max these days, 1 month at your local station, 1 month at provincial and 1 month at Pretoria (CFR).

+1

 

[Bobbin]

I thought a gun is what you get on a tank or a battleship

 

[Bobbin]

Every time I read these threads I question why I haven't got a firearm for self defense and learned to use it etc...

So to start off I assume I just find a nearby shop and speak to the guy there. Will they help me out through the whole process and also recommend training grounds? Do I start with the license or the firearm or do they facilitate all the paperwork and license for you?

 

[hellfire]

The only draw back for me regarding pepper spray is that you need to be accurate and you need be prepared to engage your target, even if by a few meters.

For someone that may panic in such circumstances, that might prove difficult. Also if your assailant wears glasses, the pepper spray might not be effective.

I've never used a stun gun, but I think it might be my preferred option to give to my wife or daughter.

And are they going to carry this stun gun on their person at all times? Because if they don't, it's useless.
By stun gun, do you mean taser that shoots projectiles or those hand held jobs which require physical contact (preceded by a 10 minute dig through the handbag to find it)?
Unless your wife or daughter are trained and ready to use whatever self defense weapon they carry, it's not going to help.

A good taser is all you need. Like people are saying, make sure you get an original

A taser is great for a one on one situation. If you're outnumbered even 2 to 1, you're f'd in the A.

Awesome, thats good to know. On my to do list for next year then.

I was actually looking for a Glock 32, but all the gun shops I went to told me that ammo is going to be very hard to find. Same with 10mm, and the guns get pretty bulky. How easy is it to get .40 SW ammo?
One more thing I like about the 9mm Glock is the factory 33 round magazines.

Very easy to get .40SW ammo - it's as common as 9mm (but a little more pricey).
You can get a happy stick (the high capacity magazine) for all Glock calibres.

I can only comment regarding posters comments on gunsite TBH.

@srothman :At that price I'll definitely bite.

Safari and Outdoor is the only place I've seen selling Gen4 Glocks at R9k.

If police stations are government buildings and government buildings are gun free zones..

@ saflyfish. Get yourself a rake pole (or if you want to spend the money, a real bo), and practice with it. In an open space I prefer that to a knife. Enough range so even a guy with a panga will think twice.

And how is he going to keep that with him while fly fishing?

 

[Obieone]

Glad it is not around my children. I would be very nervous if people felt the need to come to a childs school armed. I respect your right that you feel the need to carry a loaded firearm near children, but personally I would prefer no firearms be allowed near my kids at a school. I dont know you from a ball of soap. I dont know if you are a highly trained individual with the right skills and mental maturity to carry a firearm and I dont know if you are a lunatic ammophile who is compensating for other deficiencies. Since I dont know, personally I would want all people with firearms kept away from my children at school.

Just like ammophiles want their rights to be respected so they can have guns on them at all time, they need to respect other people who dont want that type of environment near their children.

Many years ago in the 80's after a day of patrols at crossroads we all hopped off the Buffels after making weapons safe as per normal except for one idiot who decide to do that with he's R1 pointed straight at me with the magazine fitted, quickest I've ever hit the dirt.. at least he only got one shot off which ended up who knows where. Turns out he'd been a clerk or something during national service and did rudimentary training with an R4 and never touched an R1 before, so yes you never know.

 

[srothman]

Very easy to get .40SW ammo - it's as common as 9mm (but a little more pricey).

I'm picky when it comes to what I feed my .40, especially on the GLOCKs with a slightly less supported chamber on their 40 cals.
I was fortunate to stock up with a couple hundred rounds of Speer Gold Dot 180gr rounds while back, but yes, arm and a leg. Haven't seen any since, and I've heard of two kabooms with a certain locally-produced brand.

...and as for the bo... on his back, of course... like a Ninja Turtle

 

[JerryMungo]

Many years ago in the 80's after a day of patrols at crossroads we all hopped off the Buffels after making weapons safe as per normal except for one idiot who decide to do that with he's R1 pointed straight at me with the magazine fitted, quickest I've ever hit the dirt.. at least he only got one shot off which ended up who knows where. Turns out he'd been a clerk or something during national service and did rudimentary training with an R4 and never touched an R1 before, so yes you never know.

Not to mention those uzi's one came across from time to time - talk about unsafe.

 

[crawler]

You will probably need to stop a tik drug infused person who feels little pain and does not give a ****.
Get something with stopping power!!!!