Shooting at Eastgate

Pitbull said:
Firearm control is by far one of the best in the world.

The problem is not the control of firearms, it's the lack of policing that is causing the problem with firearms. Out Firearm register and what is required to obtain a firearm is one of the best, if not the best in the world.
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where? here? SA?
 
Pitbull said:
Yes, where else?
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Bro, our Firearms Control Act is a cluster**** of note, from start to finish. The actual act is a mess, and doesn't cater for a plethora of scenarios and real-world cases. The fact that it's not policed properly is a problem all on it's own, but in essence, the actual act is one hell of a mess.
 
Toxxyc said:
Bro, our Firearms Control Act is a cluster**** of note, from start to finish. The actual act is a mess, and doesn't cater for a plethora of scenarios and real-world cases. The fact that it's not policed properly is a problem all on it's own, but in essence, the actual act is one hell of a mess.
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Of course it is... but the intention of having a central registry and such is actually pretty good (at least in my opinion)... yes the reality on the ground is a total clusterfsck...
 
Toxxyc said:
Bro, our Firearms Control Act is a cluster**** of note, from start to finish. The actual act is a mess, and doesn't cater for a plethora of scenarios and real-world cases. The fact that it's not policed properly is a problem all on it's own, but in essence, the actual act is one hell of a mess.
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The act itself is a cluster fark and even today being fought in court.

That doesn't change the fact that the way the act is currently being applied when applying for new firearms, and the renewal of these licenses are world class.

The firearms issue we have is due to policing, not the legitimate owners. The process of having to get a firearm alone is a very tedious process and with good reason.
 
ToxicBunny said:
Of course it is... but the intention of having a central registry and such is actually pretty good (at least in my opinion)... yes the reality on the ground is a total clusterfsck...
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The "issues" he's referring to I suspect has to do with the old licenses and the new licenses. There was never any provision made for the old ID book licenses which is issued for life. And then the new licenses which expire every 5/10 years. And then the renewal of it not being handled correctly and firearms being deemed illegal while an expired license is still pending renewal.

There are issues with it. But he neglects to point out how well the new application system is being run and how many people fail to get licenses and the sorts. Do I believe there are grounds for improving the application process, sure as fark! But I would rather have false positives than having people slipping through the cracks. I too have had issues applying for firearms and at some point almost had to turn to court to have it approved. But it was approved. I would much rather have someone go through a hell of a lot of red tape to obtain a firearm legally, than just walking into a shop, buying it and leaving with it the same time...
 
Pitbull said:
The "issues" he's referring to I suspect has to do with the old licenses and the new licenses. There was never any provision made for the old ID book licenses which is issued for life. And then the new licenses which expire every 5/10 years. And then the renewal of it not being handled correctly and firearms being deemed illegal while an expired license is still pending renewal.

There are issues with it. But he neglects to point out how well the new application system is being run and how many people fail to get licenses and the sorts. Do I believe there are grounds for improving the application process, sure as fark! But I would rather have false positives than having people slipping through the cracks. I too have had issues applying for firearms and at some point almost had to turn to court to have it approved. But it was approved. I would much rather have someone go through a hell of a lot of red tape to obtain a firearm legally, than just walking into a shop, buying it and leaving with it the same time...
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I don't disagree in the slightest with that... but in general the whole system is a bit of a clusterfsck of bureaucracy when it need not be... and of course it doesn't do much to stem the flow of illegal weapons, it just make legal ownership that much more stringent.
 
ToxicBunny said:
I don't disagree in the slightest with that... but in general the whole system is a bit of a clusterfsck of bureaucracy when it need not be... and of course it doesn't do much to stem the flow of illegal weapons, it just make legal ownership that much more stringent.
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I agree 100%.

And that's why I'm saying it's a policing issue, not really a management problem when it comes to gun and gun ownership. You got caught with an illegal firearm in the Old SA you where solidly farked!. I recall us driving through massive roadblocks at least once a month. Random stop and searches and so on. I have not been in a single road block for over 18 years. December was the first time ever I was caught in a roadblock and was tested for intoxication. They never even checked the engine and vin numbers or searched the car.
 
Pitbull said:
I agree 100%.

And that's why I'm saying it's a policing issue, not really a management problem when it comes to gun and gun ownership. You got caught with an illegal firearm in the Old SA you where solidly farked!. I recall us driving through massive roadblocks at least once a month. Random stop and searches and so on. I have not been in a single road block for over 18 years. December was the first time ever I was caught in a roadblock and was tested for intoxication. They never even checked the engine and vin numbers or searched the car.
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Never a truer word was spoken..

Have a friend that is ex-SAPS and has vacated this country. The stuff they told me about how the SAPS operate on the ground is scary in the extreme.
 
I think I misunderstood your original post on the matter, @Pitbull, because we agree fully now. I can't fault your arguments here.

To clarify, I say the FCA is a mess for more than just the old/new licences. Renewal is also a mission. If you don't renew in time, for instance, suddenly you are a criminal, according to the act. This problem is blown up even bigger by SAPS. I've heard instances where people had to come in to their local DFO on EXACTLY the 90th day before the licence expires, because that's what the DFO allowed. One oke found this day to be on a Sunday, and, well, now he's a "criminal".

To further this discussion - I am fully supportive of a CFR. Let it be know what it stands for - Central Firearms REGISTRAR. Currently they're not acting as a registrar, they are, in accordance with the FCA, acting as a licencing office. This causes incredible amounts of pressure and stress at the CFR, which we can see the results of. IMO, and this is probably an unpopular opinion, we should stop licensing the firearms to the persons. It's not viable, expensive and a mission to maintain. The proof is in the pudding.

Instead, and hear me out, we should license the person, and REGISTER the firearms. Exactly like we do drivers licences. You as a person are then "licensed to own a firearm". We can do different categories as well, same as how we classify our competencies right now. So you get licensed, for instance, Code A, B and C, which means you can own rifles, shotguns and pistols. Perfect. Then when you buy a rifle, for instance, it is REGISTERED on your name. Every 5 years you have to renew your licence. If you have one firearm, it's one renewal. However, if you own 120 firearms like some of my friends who are collectors do, you STILL only do one renewal. That's exactly how we do cars right now. If you're then caught with a firearm and you're not licensed to own it, or it's not registered to your name, you're in deep trouble, exactly the same as now. The policing of the matter will be exactly the same, yet the paperwork and effort from SAPS and CFR's side will be significantly reduced.

But yeah, Utopian dreams and all that.
 
I take it you are both a Gunsite and GOSA member. They also believe in pipe dreams.
The part they forget is that no matter what makes sense or would be most practical, the goal of SAPS and CFR is to REDUCE civilian firearm ownership. Not to streamline it. The UN goals are well documented and SA is a signatory. So forget SAPS ever licensing the person. Nothing is going to happen that assists with licensing or allows for an increase in civilian ownership, no matter how much sense it makes.
 
Glock26 said:
I take it you are both a Gunsite and GOSA member. They also believe in pipe dreams.
The part they forget is that no matter what makes sense or would be most practical, the goal of SAPS and CFR is to REDUCE civilian firearm ownership. Not to streamline it. The UN goals are well documented and SA is a signatory. So forget SAPS ever licensing the person. Nothing is going to happen that assists with licensing or allows for an increase in civilian ownership, no matter how much sense it makes.
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Oh I know this for a fact. The latest "leaked" paperwork proves this outright.
 
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