Should vaping be treated as smoking?

[isie]

I'm pretty sure a bullet to the brain will kill you about as quickly as a shotgun blast.

There is about a 5% chance of surviving a gunshot to the brain (lets just ignore the of those 3% will have some sort of good quality of life part) , Or as some vapeist we know might say it's less harmful than getting your head smashed between 2 blocks of concrete.

 

[WhiteRaven]

I think that the point that is being missed is that shooting yourself in the head with a .22 revolver makes a lot less of a mess than doing it with a double barreled 12 guage shotgun. The further point that is being BLITHELY ignored is that both will kill you, if the time taken to do it is ignored.

If you where an alcoholic and you were given the opportunity to reduce the damage previously done, extend your life and eventually stop without wanting to go back to drinking, wouldn't you want to do that? Wouldn't you fight to keep that product available so that others can also have the option to use it?

The fact is, again, vaping is much less harmful than cigarettes, which gives smokers a healthier alternative, which can help them stop smoking all together. Giving them the chance to have a longer, healthier life.

Isn't that what most of us want? To be given a second chance to fix stupid decisions we made when we were not wiser? Or should we rather not bother trying to change our future and have our families watch us die?

I advocate vaping because in the last 5 years I have gone from struggling to breathe after walking from my front door to the gate to being able to easily walk a few KM without having to stop to catch my breath. So in your "analogy" I removed the bullet before pulling the trigger.

 

[jucedupp]

If you where an alcoholic and you were given the opportunity to reduce the damage previously done, extend your life and eventually stop without wanting to go back to drinking, wouldn't you want to do that? Wouldn't you fight to keep that product available so that others can also have the option to use it?

The fact is, again, vaping is much less harmful than cigarettes, which gives smokers a healthier alternative, which can help them stop smoking all together. Giving them the chance to have a longer, healthier life.

Isn't that what most of us want? To be given a second chance to fix stupid decisions we made when we were not wiser? Or should we rather not bother trying to change our future and have our families watch us die?

I advocate vaping because in the last 5 years I have gone from struggling to breathe after walking from my front door to the gate to being able to easily walk a few KM without having to stop to catch my breath. So in your "analogy" I removed the bullet before pulling the trigger.

Here is the problem: The VAST majority of vapes and liquids out there have nothing to do with quitting smoking. In fact, if quitting smoking was what vapes were for, you would need at most one or two devices in the market, they would be MTL and not DTL. The truth is that the vaping industry does not make it's money out of smoking cessation. It makes its money from selling mods and low-nicotine liquids (worthless for quitting smoking), used by teenagers and immature adults to sit around and blow huge clouds of vapor.

The next fact is that vapes have opened the door to nicotine addiction to hundreds of thousands of kids worldwide, because their parents have fallen for the "not harmful" hype. Kids that would likely never have had exposure to nicotine. Nicotine is addictive.

Don't get me wrong. There should be vapes for quitting. But those cost in the region of R400 - R600, not thousands as these money-making, nicotine-addicting vapor boxes with all their mods do. And quitting vapes should be sold by pharmacies and prescribed by doctors. Not sold as toys to kids by a bunch of fat guys blowing so much smoke in their Vape store, that you can't see the counter. That is what vaping and the majority of vape stores are about. Selling addiction and making money. My neighbor across the street's son is STILL in hospital due to the fluid retention is his lungs due to a high end vape and expensive liquids.

I quit using a vape. But I used a cheap (R400) vape (Aigo) and high nicotine liquid (16%) - anything lower will just keep you craving cigarettes. But if smioking cessation was all that vapes were about, you wouldn't see vape shops popping up in every neighborhood. You can't bullshit a horsefly.

 

[JamesBoy]

Here is the problem: The VAST majority of vapes and liquids out there have nothing to do with quitting smoking. In fact, if quitting smoking was what vapes were for, you would need at most one or two devices in the market, they would be MTL and not DTL. The truth is that the vaping industry does not make it's money out of smoking cessation. It makes its money from selling mods and low-nicotine liquids (worthless for quitting smoking), used by teenagers and immature adults to sit around and blow huge clouds of vapor.

The next fact is that vapes have opened the door to nicotine addiction to hundreds of thousands of kids worldwide, because their parents have fallen for the "not harmful" hype. Kids that would likely never have had exposure to nicotine. Nicotine is addictive.

Don't get me wrong. There should be vapes for quitting. But those cost in the region of R400 - R600, not thousands as these money-making, nicotine-addicting vapor boxes with all their mods do. And quitting vapes should be sold by pharmacies and prescribed by doctors. Not sold as toys to kids by a bunch of fat guys blowing so much smoke in their Vape store, that you can't see the counter. That is what vaping and the majority of vape stores are about. Selling addiction and making money. My neighbor across the street's son is STILL in hospital due to the fluid retention is his lungs due to a high end vape and expensive liquids.

I quit using a vape. But I used a cheap (R400) vape (Aigo) and high nicotine liquid (16%) - anything lower will just keep you craving cigarettes. But if smioking cessation was all that vapes were about, you wouldn't see vape shops popping up in every neighborhood. You can't bullshit a horsefly.

I read your comment but at the end of it I felt that vaping still helped you to kick the habbit (even if cheap, wait what you meant it's cheaper?). Correct?

I'll be open, I've never tried to vape however based on everything that I've read (pricing, being the less smelly, stinky, disliked option) says that vaping is still better (even with amped nicotine levels) than smoking tradional ciggies? Do we not at least try and move over instead of just sticking with the standard crap that got us addicted? I mean I'm over that stage of getting addicted as a kid and while I do still enjoy it I'd love an easier option to quit than just freezing a thanks-giving bird spur of the moment kinda style.

 

[jucedupp]

I read your comment but at the end of it I felt that vaping still helped you to kick the habbit (even if cheap, wait what you meant it's cheaper?). Correct?

I'll be open, I've never tried to vape however based on everything that I've read (pricing, being the less smelly, stinky, disliked option) says that vaping is still better (even with amped nicotine levels) than smoking tradional ciggies? Do we not at least try and move over instead of just sticking with the standard crap that got us addicted? I mean I'm over that stage of getting addicted as a kid and while I do still enjoy it I'd love an easier option to quit than just freezing a thanks-giving bird spur of the moment kinda style.

Here is the thing. It's 2020 and nobody has an excuse to not know that nicotine is addictive and dangerous. And if anyone, armed with this knowledge, starts using any form of nicotine, they are idiots, and deserve what they get. My point is, it isn't an innocent mistake to start smoking, unless you are 6 years old. Enough said. I was one of those idiots and I am living with the COPD.

My argument is that Vapes should only be used for quitting smoking, and should be medically prescribed. These Vape shops popping up everywhere are getting kids addicted to nicotine. They are responsible for that. And they should be held accountable. These Vape shops should not exist, and should be completely banned along with cigarette sales. There is simply no more excuse for this stupidity to continue. And the "It's my right to buy and smoke cigarettes as an adult" is just as valid as "It's my right to buy and suck on plutonium pellets as an adult."

Furthermore, there is medical, scientific evidence that Vaping is harmful. Less harmful that cigarettes, yes, but still damn harmful. The vaping industry tries to sell the falsehood that cigarettes are harmful and vaping is harmless. It isn't. Too many kids who also vape, ending up in emergency wards with respiratory issues, negate that lie.

The problem is that the Vape industry doesn't care, no matter how much they protest to the contrary. They still sell DTL devices, mods and liquids to underage kids or to their parents, with their kids in tow. That is every bit as valid as a bar or liquor store selling alcohol to a parent, whilst the kid is standing next to them, telling the parent what flavor of alcohol they want.

And this is the thing: The vape industry would not exist if smoking cessation devices were all they sold. No, they thrive, like the tobacco industry, on addiction, both physiological and social.

"It's cool to smoke" has simply been replaced by "It's cool to vape." Look at the devices they sell. Don't they remind you of Alienware computers and the coincidentally named "Mods" they sell?

They are targeted at the teenage boy "I love cool looking gadgets" market. Exactly the same thing with the Vape industry. Their target is teenage boys. And they sell them nicotine. At ANY age. And I guaran-effing-tee you there are going to be vape purveyors, on this forum, who are going to blather on about how the industry regulates itself so well, and how they don't sell x or y or z to kids. Thy are lying. I can take my 13 year old boy, send him into ANY vape store by himself, and he will walk out with nicotine containing liquid.

The Vape industry only exists because they sell cool gadgets to kids and immature adults. Not because they care an iota about smoking cessation. That's just a convenient lie they hide behind, while the bulk of their sales are for devices that are supplies for a sick hobby and nothing else.

 

[Rocket-Boy]

Here is the thing. It's 2020 and nobody has an excuse to not know that nicotine is addictive and dangerous. And if anyone, armed with this knowledge, starts using any form of nicotine, they are idiots, and deserve what they get. My point is, it isn't an innocent mistake to start smoking, unless you are 6 years old. Enough said. I was one of those idiots and I am living with the COPD.

My argument is that Vapes should only be used for quitting smoking, and should be medically prescribed. These Vape shops popping up everywhere are getting kids addicted to nicotine. They are responsible for that. And they should be held accountable. These Vape shops should not exist, and should be completely banned along with cigarette sales. There is simply no more excuse for this stupidity to continue. And the "It's my right to buy and smoke cigarettes as an adult" is just as valid as "It's my right to buy and suck on plutonium pellets as an adult."

Furthermore, there is medical, scientific evidence that Vaping is harmful. Less harmful that cigarettes, yes, but still damn harmful. The vaping industry tries to sell the falsehood that cigarettes are harmful and vaping is harmless. It isn't. Too many kids who also vape, ending up in emergency wards with respiratory issues, negate that lie.

The problem is that the Vape industry doesn't care, no matter how much they protest to the contrary. They still sell DTL devices, mods and liquids to underage kids or to their parents, with their kids in tow. That is every bit as valid as a bar or liquor store selling alcohol to a parent, whilst the kid is standing next to them, telling the parent what flavor of alcohol they want.

And this is the thing: The vape industry would not exist if smoking cessation devices were all they sold. No, they thrive, like the tobacco industry, on addiction, both physiological and social.

"It's cool to smoke" has simply been replaced by "It's cool to vape." Look at the devices they sell. Don't they remind you of Alienware computers and the coincidentally named "Mods" they sell?

They are targeted at the teenage boy "I love cool looking gadgets" market. Exactly the same thing with the Vape industry. Their target is teenage boys. And they sell them nicotine. At ANY age. And I guaran-effing-tee you there are going to be vape purveyors, on this forum, who are going to blather on about how the industry regulates itself so well, and how they don't sell x or y or z to kids. Thy are lying. I can take my 13 year old boy, send him into ANY vape store by himself, and he will walk out with nicotine containing liquid.

The Vape industry only exists because they sell cool gadgets to kids and immature adults. Not because they care an iota about smoking cessation.

So you are calling for vapes to be regulated but anyone can buy cigarettes still?
You think that your 13 year old couldnt walk into a corner cafe somewhere and buy a box of cigarettes?

 

[jucedupp]

So you are calling for vapes to be regulated but anyone can buy cigarettes still?
You think that your 13 year old couldnt walk into a corner cafe somewhere and buy a box of cigarettes?

No.

I'm calling for the complete banning of all smoking products, including cigarettes and vapes. Other countries have done it. Just think of the money saved from taxes having to support idiot smokers who crawl to government hospitals with emphezema, COPD and various forms of cancer. Idiots smoke.

Whilst it is your right to screw yourself up in any way, it is not your right to foist the costs of that on taxpayers when you become too sick, exhaust your medical aid, and then end up having me pay for your treatment in some end of days hospice.

To that end, nicotine should be regulated as a schedule 7 drug, and only prescribed by doctors, along with the device, as a smoking cessation tool. No Vape stores required.

 

[Rocket-Boy]

No.

I'm calling for the complete banning of all smoking products, including cigarettes and vapes. Other countries have done it. Just think of the money saved from taxes having to support idiot smokers who crawl to government hospitals with emphezema, COPD and various forms of cancer. Idiots smoke.

Whilst it is your right to screw yourself up in any way, it is not your right to foist the costs of that on taxpayers when you become too sick, exhaust your medical aid, and then end up having me pay for your treatment in some end of days hospice.

To that end, nicotine should be regulated as a schedule 7 drug, and only prescribed by doctors, along with the device, as a smoking cessation tool. No Vape stores required.

You have that completely wrong unfortunately. Im pretty sure there is more tax revenue generated from the sale of tobacco products than the cost of public healthcare associated with smoking.
Public healthcare isnt the same as private, they pretty much get given some panado and told to walk it off.

Banning anything in SA just means the black market thrives, this was demonstrated very clearly during lockdown.

Having said all of that, it would be great if all nicotine containing products stopped being available in SA. If there wasnt anything to buy then people would be forced to give it up.

 

[Grouter]

Last year the Australian Govt. made AUD $17 billion from tobacco taxes. Governments don't give a **** about your health - they just want the money.

 

[jucedupp]

You have that completely wrong unfortunately. Im pretty sure there is more tax revenue generated from the sale of tobacco products than the cost of public healthcare associated with smoking.
Public healthcare isnt the same as private, they pretty much get given some panado and told to walk it off.

Banning anything in SA just means the black market thrives, this was demonstrated very clearly during lockdown.

Having said all of that, it would be great if all nicotine containing products stopped being available in SA. If there wasnt anything to buy then people would be forced to give it up.

Go look at the numbers, the data is out there. https://academic.oup.com/ntr/advanc...3/ntr/ntaa162/5896443?redirectedFrom=fulltext

"Banning anything in SA just means the black market thrives, this was demonstrated very clearly during lockdown."
Yeah. Spend that 14 Billion on policing.

 

[Rocket-Boy]

Go look at the numbers, the data is out there. https://academic.oup.com/ntr/advanc...3/ntr/ntaa162/5896443?redirectedFrom=fulltext

"Banning anything in SA just means the black market thrives, this was demonstrated very clearly during lockdown."
Yeah. Spend that 14 Billion on policing.

Fair enough on the numbers, I didnt think it would be close to that.

Honest question, do you really think policing is effective?
Many people were buying cigarettes from the police during lockdown. The other factor is that people in townships who are the most prolific users of public health dont fear the police at all.

 

[Zophos]

Go look at the numbers, the data is out there. https://academic.oup.com/ntr/advanc...3/ntr/ntaa162/5896443?redirectedFrom=fulltext

"Banning anything in SA just means the black market thrives, this was demonstrated very clearly during lockdown."
Yeah. Spend that 14 Billion on policing.

Ok, we are debating whether vaping should be the same as smoking.

And you quote health stats from smoking, from 2016, do defend your view that vaping is the same as smoking and both should be banned. Correct?

We all know that smoking is a burden on the health system, but can you prove the same for vaping?

Also, will it make sense to ban EVERYTHING that is a burden on the health system and a choice? Sugar, fast food, cheese?

I will add that vaping is the lessor of 2 evils, but you need a study on vaping vs smoking to confirm this, right?

Just my 2c

 

[UrBaN963]

Here is the thing. It's 2020 and nobody has an excuse to not know that nicotine is addictive and dangerous. And if anyone, armed with this knowledge, starts using any form of nicotine, they are idiots, and deserve what they get. My point is, it isn't an innocent mistake to start smoking, unless you are 6 years old. Enough said. I was one of those idiots and I am living with the COPD.

My argument is that Vapes should only be used for quitting smoking, and should be medically prescribed. These Vape shops popping up everywhere are getting kids addicted to nicotine. They are responsible for that. And they should be held accountable. These Vape shops should not exist, and should be completely banned along with cigarette sales. There is simply no more excuse for this stupidity to continue. And the "It's my right to buy and smoke cigarettes as an adult" is just as valid as "It's my right to buy and suck on plutonium pellets as an adult."

Furthermore, there is medical, scientific evidence that Vaping is harmful. Less harmful that cigarettes, yes, but still damn harmful. The vaping industry tries to sell the falsehood that cigarettes are harmful and vaping is harmless. It isn't. Too many kids who also vape, ending up in emergency wards with respiratory issues, negate that lie.

The problem is that the Vape industry doesn't care, no matter how much they protest to the contrary. They still sell DTL devices, mods and liquids to underage kids or to their parents, with their kids in tow. That is every bit as valid as a bar or liquor store selling alcohol to a parent, whilst the kid is standing next to them, telling the parent what flavor of alcohol they want.

And this is the thing: The vape industry would not exist if smoking cessation devices were all they sold. No, they thrive, like the tobacco industry, on addiction, both physiological and social.

"It's cool to smoke" has simply been replaced by "It's cool to vape." Look at the devices they sell. Don't they remind you of Alienware computers and the coincidentally named "Mods" they sell?

They are targeted at the teenage boy "I love cool looking gadgets" market. Exactly the same thing with the Vape industry. Their target is teenage boys. And they sell them nicotine. At ANY age. And I guaran-effing-tee you there are going to be vape purveyors, on this forum, who are going to blather on about how the industry regulates itself so well, and how they don't sell x or y or z to kids. Thy are lying. I can take my 13 year old boy, send him into ANY vape store by himself, and he will walk out with nicotine containing liquid.

The Vape industry only exists because they sell cool gadgets to kids and immature adults. Not because they care an iota about smoking cessation. That's just a convenient lie they hide behind, while the bulk of their sales are for devices that are supplies for a sick hobby and nothing else.

You seem particularly vexxed on this subject.

Pray tell, why are adults who vape "immature"? What is your reasoning behind this? And don't respond with, "because they want to make cool clouds" because a) you don't know that and b) even if that was the case, what is immature about that?

Clarify your insults please.

 

[jucedupp]

You seem particularly vexxed on this subject.

Pray tell, why are adults who vape "immature"? What is your reasoning behind this? And don't respond with, "because they want to make cool clouds" because a) you don't know that and b) even if that was the case, what is immature about that?

Clarify your insults please.

Not "vexxed" (sic) as such. I just prefer to not suffer fools at all.

Do understand that I make a distinction between people who vape as an immediate and active attempt to quit, and those who vape just because.

Of course the latter wants to make cool clouds. What, if not that? Being seen with an expensive accessory? Also childish. Some kind of wankerish status symbol? I mean, really, what would be, to you, a mature reason for using a vape other than a realistic and focused attempt to quit smoking? What about recreational vaping is mature? How is it different from blowing soap bubbles?

How is "blowing cool clouds" not utterly puerile?

 

[UrBaN963]

Not "vexxed" (sic) as such. I just prefer to not suffer fools at all.

Do understand that I make a distinction between people who vape as an immediate and active attempt to quit, and those who vape just because.

Of course the latter wants to make cool clouds. What, if not that? Being seen with an expensive accessory? Also childish. Some kind of wankerish status symbol? I mean, really, what would be, to you, a valid excuse for using a vape other than a realistic and focused attempt to quit smoking?

How is "blowing cool clouds" not utterly puerile?

Perhaps it is an alternative means to get a nicotine fix, much as beer and vodka are both valid options for a person who feels like a drink?

Let me guess, your boyfriend left you for a vaper and you now have an incessant need to insult all those who think differently to you?

Let me ask you a question: Do you drink alcohol in any form?

 

[jucedupp]

Perhaps it is an alternative means to get a nicotine fix, much as beer and vodka are both valid options for a person who feels like a drink?

Let me guess, your boyfriend left you for a vaper and you now have an incessant need to insult all those who think differently to you?

Let me ask you a question: Do you drink alcohol in any form?

As I said before: Smoking or "getting a nicotine fix" in whichever form is idiotic and yes, childish. It is an automatically addictive substance. Like Heroin. And I say that as someone who smoked for 35 years and has the COPD to prove it. Alcohol is a relaxant. Nicotine is the opposite. It causes contraction of the veins, high blood pressure, increased heart rate etc. The opposite of relaxing. None of them healthy or relaxing. As I said. Nicotine usage in the age of information is idiotic. Your strawman fallacy is noted.

 

[UrBaN963]

As I said before: Smoking or "getting a nicotine fix" in whichever is idiotic and yes, childish. It is an automatically addictive substance. Like Heroin. And I say that as someone who smoked for 35 years and has the COPD to prove it. Alcohol is a relaxant. Nicotine is the opposite. It causes contraction of the veins, high blood pressure, increased heart rate etc. None of them healthy or relaxing. As I said. Nicotine usage in the age of information is idiotic. Your strawman fallacy is noted.

I notice in amongst your angsty outburst you somehow forgot to answer my question.

Do you partake in alcohol of any form?

 

[jucedupp]

I notice in amongst your angsty outburst you somehow forgot to answer my question.

Do you partake in alcohol of any form?

I note that in your puerile wankerism you forgot how to read.

 

[UrBaN963]

I note that in your puerile wankerism you forgot how to read.

You've clearly learnt a new word and we are all suitably impressed. No need to use it in every rebuttal though, it becomes redundant after a while. Variety is the spice of life, after all.

Back to my question you have yet again failed to answer.... do you drink alcohol?

 

[Tabac]

I note that in your puerile wankerism you forgot how to read.

Then this dutchman can't read. I see jackshit of you answering about drinking alcohol.