Should vaping be treated as smoking?

[D3v8]

Vaping, herbal smoking and smokeless tobacco products regulation

This section provides information about how the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act 1990 regulates vaping, herbal smoking and smokeless tobacco products in New Zealand and what that means for retailers, manufacturers and importers of vape products.

www.health.govt.nz

Here is the official NZ Health Department website on Vaping:

Vaping Facts

Don’t Start if you don’t smoke

vapingfacts.health.nz

 

[D3v8]

https://www.planetofthevapes.co.uk/news/health-studies/2020-10-21_polosa-s-copd-follow-up.html

"Riccardo Polosa is one of the most prolific academic authors on the subject of vaping and tobacco harm reduction. As the founder of the Centre of Excellence for the Acceleration of Harm Reduction, President of the Italian Anti-Smoking League, and Special Scientific Advisor to the International Network of Nicotine Consumer Organizations, Riccardo has pressed governments around the world to adopt common-sense approaches to vaping. Now he follows up a COPD study he conducted five years ago.

In 2015, Polosa looked at published papers on the subject and found “there certainly is no evidence to date to suggest that there are any clinically significant adverse lung effects, at least acutely. Smokers with pre-existing asthma and COPD may benefit from regular EC [electronic cigarette] use.” [link]

In “Electronic cigarette use and harm reversal: emerging evidence in the lung” [link], he concluded that the evidence suggested switching to vaping “can reverse harm from tobacco smoking” and this should be born in mind by politicians creating legislation for the nascent industry.

In his latest paper, Polosa worked with other Italian researchers and Jaymin Morjaria at the Department of Respiratory Medicine at the Royal Brompton and Harefield Hospital. They wrote: “We present findings from a 5-year prospective assessment of respiratory parameters in a cohort of COPD patients who substantially reduced conventional smoking or achieved abstinence by switching to ECs.”

“Those in the EC user group achieved a marked decline in cigarette smoking or abstinence. COPD EC users had a significant diminution in COPD exacerbations. Significant and constant improvements in lung function, CAT scores and 6MWD were reported in the EC user group over the 5-year observation period compared with the reference group.”

 

[isie]

Another fearmongering article.



second on their list of "big bad chemicals" is Propylene Glycol wich is used extensively in the medical field for inhalant medical devices such as Asthma Inhalers.

https://juniperpublishers.com/gjpps/pdf/GJPPS.MS.ID.555584.pdf

Carcinogens can be found in almost every thing we consume on a daily basis, including 'braaivleis'

Known and Probable Human Carcinogens

Explore lists of known and probable human carcinogens from the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) and the National Toxicology Program (NTP).

www.cancer.org

The amounts of Diacetyl you would need to inhale is astronomical. The only documented cases for "Popcorn Lung" was in a popcorn factory where the workers inhaled copious amounts of diacetyl in the process of making butter flavoured popcorn (yes, is you've had anything 'butter flavoured, you have consumed Diacetyl and in a larger quantity than what you would have vaped.

yes a lot of stuff has carcinogens - but the fact that some people deny it is even in vapes is my point, but
we will go round and round I will post you will post articles let's drop that as below answers my main question.
the person that insists they don't ignores that.

Please go and look at my previous post regarding the vaping in public and cloud blowers

I've selected other. As a vaper myself, I feel that Vaping needs to be done considerately when in any public space. But it should not be taxed as a tobacco product when it is in fact, scientifically proven to be far less (95%) harmful than combustible tobacco products. And it is widely and successfully used as a smoking cessation tool.

You say it's less Harmful then cigarettes that I can understand and that is true it is less- I will disagree on the percentage but as i mentioned we will go round and round on that so Agree to disagree - still not sure on your opion on the second hand vaping - if its harmful or not.
and I have said my opinion on the tax thing.

Please do research on how the South African vaping community has been self-regulating for years, because as responsible adults who do not believe that smoking/vaping/drinking is for children, this has been self enforce by manufacturers, store owners and individuals.

Not every store enforces this on kids - and before you go it must be foreigners - no i've seen the same from locals.
So ya I ve done resarch.

I vape in front of my kid, my dog, the tv, my laptop and sometimes the car guard. I vape in front of a lot of things BUT as I was a considerate smoker, I am a considerate vaper.

If you meant do I vape with kids in the room, well no I don't.... It's the same as how I don't eat chocolate cake in front of someone who is on diet, it's called manners and being considerate, which is very very different from what you are implying my reasons are.

If you child or the public can see and smell those clouds of vape its in front of them - so clearly you don't consider car Guards with any respect, Did you ask if it's ok to vape in front of them?
and honestly you should vape with your kids in the same room if you believe its safe - its not like it smells like tobacco.

Anyways... I am always game for a heated debate but I'm not entertaining you anymore, you lost this when you made this personal and called me an idiot.

If you truly believe it is not Harmful to others then honestly what do you think I should say.

 

[umamankandla]

Should anal be treated the same as viganal?

 

[Grouter]

If you truly believe it is not Harmful to others then honestly what do you think I should say.

Sorry. That would be a start. There's no need to insult anyone, here on a forum or indeed anytime in your life.
It just weakens your argument and makes you look desperate.

“The key to holding a logical argument or debate is to allow oneself
to understand the other person’s argument
no matter how divergent their views may seem.”
Oscar Auliq Ice

 

[isie]

Sorry. That would be a start. There's no need to insult anyone, here on a forum or indeed anytime in your life.
It just weakens your argument and makes you look desperate.

“The key to holding a logical argument or debate is to allow oneself
to understand the other person’s argument
no matter how divergent their views may seem.”
Oscar Auliq Ice

Lets analyse the arguments and tell me if these people are either Idiots or they truly are despicable human beings who do not care that they are harming others.
and remember this is her claim that the exhaled vapour is not harmful to others.


So they accept Vape liquid is harmful to the vaper (but not as harmful as cigarettes just putting that there before a vaper get their clouds in a knot) and as stated has no effect to others.

Please tell me how can it not be harmful - Are you telling me that human lungs absorb 100% of whatever is in the liquid they atomised and their lungs have sucked in every single harmful chemical before they exhaled as just plain water vapour instead of god knows what back into the environment , for a unsuspecting innocent person to then have to inhale that without permission or choice ?

A average human's lung can barely absorb 27% of the available oxygen in every breath (its main job) and express the rest back to the environment - the vapers lungs can supposedly absorb 100% of whatever they puffing in (wow dude theses vapers should be going to some of the most polluted places on earth and just breath in whatever is there and clean up the planet)



So ya if she isn't an idiot she is a despicable human being - which one would you prefer?

 

[Grouter]

From 'idiot' to 'despicable human being' - just......wow.
I'd just like to let you know that it's no use asking me any more questions as I won't be able to see them.
I have added you to my ignore list.
Have a great weekend.

 

[PoppieChoffel]

I speak under correction, but isn't making your own vape juice at home much easier and quicker than planting tobacco? That means a lot of people will circumvent paying the extortion tax

True. I must start investigating.

 

[isie]

From 'idiot' to 'despicable human being' - just......wow.
I'd just like to let you know that it's no use asking me any more questions as I won't be able to see them.
I have added you to my ignore list.
Have a great weekend.

 

[The Voice]

Not really sure how people are fussing about the odd chance of maybe breathing in what is potentially harmless water vapour once it's left your lungs, but are more than happy for them and their children to breathe in fumes coming from diesel and petrol engines on a daily basis.

Unless, of course, you live in the mountains, miles from civilisation and use a bicycle to get around, in which case, complain away.

 

[WhiteRaven]

Lets analyse the arguments and tell me if these people are either Idiots or they truly are despicable human beings who do not care that they are harming others.
and remember this is her claim that the exhaled vapour is not harmful to others.
View attachment 939212

So they accept Vape liquid is harmful to the vaper (but not as harmful as cigarettes just putting that there before a vaper get their clouds in a knot) and as stated has no effect to others.

Please tell me how can it not be harmful - Are you telling me that human lungs absorb 100% of whatever is in the liquid they atomised and their lungs have sucked in every single harmful chemical before they exhaled as just plain water vapour instead of god knows what back into the environment , for a unsuspecting innocent person to then have to inhale that without permission or choice ?

A average human's lung can barely absorb 27% of the available oxygen in every breath (its main job) and express the rest back to the environment - the vapers lungs can supposedly absorb 100% of whatever they puffing in (wow dude theses vapers should be going to some of the most polluted places on earth and just breath in whatever is there and clean up the planet)

So ya if she isn't an idiot she is a despicable human being - which one would you prefer?

You literally highlighted a extract from the article I shared from the UK Cancer Research association. I'm sure they would love to hear your educated opinion on this matter.

 

[isie]

You literally highlighted a extract from the article I shared from the UK Cancer Research association. I'm sure they would love to hear your educated opinion on this matter.

I highlighted your post.
The fact that you ignore evidence that it can affect secondary people, and try to justify it - is what makes you either an idiot or a disgusting individual - depending on what you use to justify your ignorance




and not to mention from your same source:

Awareness and Prevention | Cancer Research UK

Information for Health professionals on prevention and awareness of cancer, and support and training to help talk confidently about cancer.

www.cancerresearchuk.org

Lower does not mean its not harmful

The evidence to date suggests toxicants may be present but at much lower levels in second-hand e-cigarette vapour than second-hand cigarette smoke and there is no convincing evidence of harm to bystanders so far.[2,3,4,5,6] Any harm to both users and bystanders from second-hand vapour is likely to be much lower than that of tobacco.

So not only does your source not say as you claim its not harmful to others but you are convinced it is.

and before you go on about oh you can eat this bla bla - some things can be safely ingested but cannot be safely breathed in.


If it's so safe let your child vape and you should have no issue vaping in the same room as them?

 

[WhiteRaven]

I highlighted your post.
The fact that you ignore evidence that it can affect secondary people, and try to justify it - is what makes you either an idiot or a disgusting individual - depending on what you use to justify your ignorance

If it's so safe let your child vape and you should have no issue vaping in the same room as them?

I caught my daughter smoking when she was around 16 year's old, she had hidden it from me for almost a year. After I had managed to compose myself, because I have watched my grandfather, mother and father die from smoking, I gave her three options:

- Stop completely as she had seen first hand the very painful end of her Gran, weighing 30kg's at her death and been fighting for breath for years before her end
- Start vaping, but within 3 months - from 3mg e-liquid to zero and within 6 months stop completely
- Carry on smoking, but volunteer at hospice for the rest of her time as a smoker

She had a week to decide, I explained everything to her. She decided to stop completely and now at 18, she is grateful I let her make her own informed choice.

Vaping is much LESS harmful than smoking, I would rather convert a smoker to a vaper or non-smoker than watch them live through the agony of emphysema.

I am not inconsiderate and therefore do not vape huge clouds or around peoples kids, it's common decency but do I think that the second hand vapour is harmful, personally I don't believe it is. By not vaping AROUND people who prefer I don't, I take their personal choice into consideration. This has nothing to do with my advocation of vaping but rather because I am actually not an idiot or a despicable human being, I am a Mother who has lead by example, teaching my kid to be considerate of others. If other people don't have this consideration it has nothing to do with the facts that vaping is less harmful but rather that they are inconsiderate.

I could provide you with links that debunk so many of the harmful chemical points, but I know I'm wasting my time with you because I've realised that you are arguing for arguing sake. I have posted the responses this morning, in the hope of getting people who are reading this to go and do their own research and maybe form a more educated opinion.

If you are one of those people GrimmGreen is a great YouTuber who provides Vaping information on his channel, with evidence.

 

[isie]

I caught my daughter smoking when she was around 16 year's old, she had hidden it from me for almost a year. After I had managed to compose myself, because I have watched my grandfather, mother and father die from smoking, I gave her three options:

- Stop completely as she had seen first hand the very painful end of her Gran, weighing 30kg's at her death and been fighting for breath for years before her end
- Start vaping, but within 3 months - from 3mg e-liquid to zero and within 6 months stop completely
- Carry on smoking, but volunteer at hospice for the rest of her time as a smoker

She had a week to decide, I explained everything to her. She decided to stop completely and now at 18, she is grateful I let her make her own informed choice.



Vaping is much LESS harmful than smoking, I would rather convert a smoker to a vaper or non-smoker than watch them live through the agony of emphysema.

What you clearly do not understand is, If you want to vape or smoke by all means knock yourself out. I do not care what you do to yourself it's your life. I even agree vaping is much less harmful than smoking - we can disagree on the how much safer but nonetheless just because it is less harmful to the vaper does not mean it is safe. like i said bullet to the knee or bullet to the thigh. My issue is to those around you.

I am not inconsiderate and therefore do not vape huge clouds or around peoples kids, it's common decency but do I think that the second hand vapour is harmful, personally I don't believe it is. By not vaping AROUND people who prefer I don't, I take their personal choice into consideration.

And here is my issue You personally ' don't believe' it's not harmful to others - you have no degree you have a source that wasn't even sure a few posts ago you were convinced - a few decades ago smoking was considered safe - like i said even the source you cited isn't convinced its not harmful - The fact that you advocate not vaping around others - can you say the same for everyone elses who vapes - of course not hence - unfortunately it needs to be regulated specific areas allocated for it so it does not affect those that do not want to take the chance of it being harmful to them and if it needs to be lumped in with smoking so be it.

This has nothing to do with my advocation of vaping but rather because I am actually not an idiot or a despicable human being, I am a Mother who has lead by example, teaching my kid to be considerate of others. If other people don't have this consideration it has nothing to do with the facts that vaping is less harmful but rather that they are inconsiderate.

My point is if it is so safe you would have no issue with your kids doing it or have it done in front of them. You keep saying its inconsiderate - so the only issue is it's not polite - will you tell anyone else who vapes in front of you or your kid not to - if its so safe will you have an issue with them?

I could provide you with links that debunk so many of the harmful chemical points, but I know I'm wasting my time with you because I've realised that you are arguing for arguing sake. I have posted the responses this morning, in the hope of getting people who are reading this to go and do their own research and maybe form a more educated opinion.

And i can provide links to the contrary - and to add to my point - can you tell me every person vaping uses registered places that follow some guidelines (ignoring the fact that it may still be harmful) - of course not - how do you expect anyone in the street to guess what is in every one of those?
So your the vaping community is self regulating - does not help.

I have done research and its come back with it is harmful to others - but supposedly that's from Big tobacco even though those same sources state tobacco is worse

Please tell me how your opinion is educated again?

If you are one of those people GrimmGreen is a great YouTuber who provides Vaping information on his channel, with evidence.

Does not seem to have any videos to say it's safe for those around you?

 

[WhiteRaven]

And here is my issue You personally ' don't believe' it's not harmful to others - you have no degree you have a source that wasn't even sure a few posts ago you were convinced - a few decades ago smoking was considered safe - like i said even the source you cited isn't convinced its not harmful - The fact that you advocate not vaping around others - can you say the same for everyone elses who vapes - of course not hence - unfortunately it needs to be regulated specific areas allocated for it so it does not affect those that do not want to take the chance of it being harmful to them and if it needs to be lumped in with smoking so be it.

The source does however stay consistent that vaping is less harmful...

I have said it needs to be regulated... I disagree that nicotine should be used as the base to brand it as a tobacco product and that my battery for my device will be lumped into that category to.

My point is if it is so safe you would have no issue with your kids doing it or have it done in front of them. You keep saying its inconsiderate - so the only issue is it's not polite - will you tell anyone else who vapes in front of you or your kid not to - if its so safe will you have an issue with them?

Please read my previous post, I gave my daughter the choice to make a decision on smoking, vaping and none of the above.. your point is moot as I per my post I would rather have my daughter vape than smoke cigarettes.

And i can provide links to the contrary - and to add to my point - can you tell me every person vaping uses registered places that follow some guidelines (ignoring the fact that it may still be harmful) - of course not - how do you expect anyone in the street to guess what is in every one of those?
So your the vaping community is self regulating - does not help.

I'm sure you can provide me with links and we can counter link until the cows come home... I can tell you that, having been in this space for many years the majority of stores request ISO certificates from their suppliers before putting their products on their shelves. Are there people that mix at home, I do and many others as well but the 4 base requirements stay the same, because that is how the e-liquid is constructed. Going outside of this makes no sense. People who vape are looking for a healthier alternative, deviating from the construct would make it counter productive.

I have done research and its come back with it is harmful to others - but supposedly that's from Big tobacco even though those same sources state tobacco is worse

Do you have any idea how much money big tobacco and pharma has lost? It is no secret that in many instances both provides kick-backs to doctors to endorse their products, do you honestly believe that backing for the negative on vaping would not see the same?

Please tell me how your opinion is educated again?

Having worked side by side with people in the industry in South Africa and internationally and been the provider of said ISO packaging certificates, I have seen how proud suppliers of their products are, how they send them to labs to be tested to ensure the correct level of nicotine is being used and that there are no foreign particles. I have seen manufacturers shut down because they where not making their e-liquid in a clean enough space and no-one would buy from them. I have first hand seen an massive improvement in my health and the list of ex-smokers and current vapers/ex vapers have attested the same, is massive. I have spoken to spouses who have had a smoking home become a vaping home and the positive impact it has had for them. I have seen store owner turn kids under 18 away from their doors, as I have seen them build coils and educate people in their 60's to help them stop smoking because nothing else worked for them.

I have been involved in countless discussions for both pro and con side of vaping, for YEARS with both in and out of industry individuals. I have an educated opinion because for the past 5 year's I've paid attention to everything and the fact remains that vaping is less harmful than smoking and second hand vapour is the same.

Does not seem to have any videos to say it's safe for those around you?

There are and i'm sure there are also to the contrary. It is human nature to back the one that best confirms an opinion that supports our own. I have done research on both sides and I still find that vaping is healthier alternative to smoking and hundreds of thousands of smokers have been able to quit smoking and eventually vaping to attain an healthier lifestyle. As for those around us, well in my 5 year's I've only had one person complain because they didn't like the smell of the vanilla in my vape, it was too sweet.

 

[isie]

The source does however stay consistent that vaping is less harmful...

Still Harmful - contrary to what you initially claimed.

Like i said Would
I have said it needs to be regulated... I disagree that nicotine should be used as the base to brand it as a tobacco product and that my battery for my device will be lumped into that category to.

IT's harmful to bystanders

Please read my previous post, I gave my daughter the choice to make a decision on smoking, vaping and none of the above.. your point is moot as I per my post I would rather have my daughter vape than smoke cigarettes.

And yet here you said *- you belong to a community of Responsible adults who do not allow children to vape - so now you not a responsible adult? So clearly you admit this self regulation isn't working - if you do not feel it necessary to follow it?

I'm sure you can provide me with links and we can counter link until the cows come home... I can tell you that, having been in this space for many years the majority of stores request ISO certificates from their suppliers before putting their products on their shelves. Are there people that mix at home, I do and many others as well but the 4 base requirements stay the same, because that is how the e-liquid is constructed. Going outside of this makes no sense. People who vape are looking for a healthier alternative, deviating from the construct would make it counter productive.

You cant even keep your own story straight - yet you claim to speak for 100's of others

None the less what part of I don't care if its less harmful to you then smoking - the fact that its harmful to others is my only concern? That's all i care about - you have chosen like smokers to do this - if you believe it is safe for you that's fine but you seem to ignore that it is harmful to others.

Do you have any idea how much money big tobacco and pharma has lost? It is no secret that in many instances both provides kick-backs to doctors to endorse their products, do you honestly believe that backing for the negative on vaping would not see the same?

And again you ignore the fact that the links i posted state smoking is worse ,
So what is to stop the vaping industry to pay doctors to make the claim that vaping is safe?
Nothing im supposed to trust you - who blatantly lies and changes her story.

Having worked side by side with people in the industry in South Africa and internationally and been the provider of said ISO packaging certificates, I have seen how proud suppliers of their products are, how they send them to labs to be tested to ensure the correct level of nicotine is being used and that there are no foreign particles. I have seen manufacturers shut down because they where not making their e-liquid in a clean enough space and no-one would buy from them. I have first hand seen an massive improvement in my health and the list of ex-smokers and current vapers/ex vapers have attested the same, is massive.


I have spoken to spouses who have had a smoking home become a vaping home and the positive impact it has had for them. I have seen store owner turn kids under 18 away from their doors, as I have seen them build coils and educate people in their 60's to help them stop smoking because nothing else worked for them.

And at the same time I have seen shops freely selling to kids - and in any industry close 1 another will open and You just admitted you have no issue giving this to your kid - how is this responsible, how many others have no issues - you really are contradicting yourself here, but again what part of I do not care what you vapers are doing to yourself - that's your choice - the effect it has on the non smokers is the issue.

I have been involved in countless discussions for both pro and con side of vaping, for YEARS with both in and out of industry individuals. I have an educated opinion because for the past 5 year's I've paid attention to everything and the fact remains that vaping is less harmful than smoking and second hand vapour is the same.

Again less harmful is still harmful!
You are exactly like smokers - you don't want people taking your freedom to vape anywhere and everywhere away but you have no qualms about taking a non vapers choice away.

There are and i'm sure there are also to the contrary. It is human nature to back the one that best confirms an opinion that supports our own. I have done research on both sides and I still find that vaping is healthier alternative to smoking and hundreds of thousands of smokers have been able to quit smoking and eventually vaping to attain an healthier lifestyle. As for those around us, well in my 5 year's I've only had one person complain because they didn't like the smell of the vanilla in my vape, it was too sweet.

Your entire argument is how this is less harmful to smokers - I never disagreed. but guess what I do not care,
You have a choice smoke or vape , But it's still harmful to you and others, weather you think its harmful or not you have made that choice and that really is your choice - i won't take it away from you.

For Those of us who choose not to vape - are still forced to inhale your aerosolized crap, that we never asked to, the second you or your brethren decide to puff in public you automatically take their choice away.
Clearly every vaper will not think to his or herself (and I include you who admitted you vape in front of car guards) that they should not do this in front of other people (as a few have posted experiences on this thread)

You can't seem (or refuse) to understand a basic concept that your habit has an harmful effect on others - even if you think less harmful than smoking doesn't matter it's still harmful.

If you cannot understand that less harmful is still harmful then vape must have affected you mentally.

 

[WhiteRaven]

Well I tried, you simply will take everything said and twist it. I really not going to entertain you anymore. Okay thank you byeeee.

 

[isie]

Well I tried, you simply will take everything said and twist it. I really not going to entertain you anymore. Okay thank you byeeee.

Lol - I only posted what you said , don't call it twisting if you cant keep track of your lies.

 

[jucedupp]

I think that the massive point that is being missed is that it is a proven fact that vaping is much less harmful than smoking

I think that the point that is being missed is that shooting yourself in the head with a .22 revolver makes a lot less of a mess than doing it with a double barreled 12 guage shotgun. The further point that is being BLITHELY ignored is that both will kill you, if the time taken to do it is ignored.

 

[bwana]

I think that the point that is being missed is that shooting yourself in the head with a .22 revolver makes a lot less of a mess than doing it with a double barreled 12 guage shotgun. The further point that is being BLITHELY ignored is that both will kill you, if the time taken to do it is ignored.

I'm pretty sure a bullet to the brain will kill you about as quickly as a shotgun blast.