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Question of the Day: Will you be subscribing to the new Disney+ R49 streaming package?
Software pirate caught in sting operation
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killadoob
Honorary Master
Of course, Microsoft executives prefer that people buy, but theft can build market share more quickly, as company co-founder and Chairman Bill Gates acknowledged in an unguarded moment in 1998.
"Although about 3 million computers get sold every year in China, people don't pay for the software. Someday they will, though," Gates told an audience at the University of Washington. "And as long as they're going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade."
Peter you fail to understand one important thing, by selling pirated software you become a criminal, if you download or buy the software for personal use you are not a criminal.
Maybe you just need a lesson in right and wrong in terms of the law.
I think telkom abuse us, if i go steal their copper cables and get caught i am a criminal and i cannot say but telkom have abused us for years, this is not 4th grade bud it is real life. I doubt this guy will go to court and say but sir microsoft have abused us so i decided to make money by selling their property. If you sell a pc with pirated windows and office you are selling a pc with pirated software. I don't think he could prove he never charged for windows.
He should have then advertised a computer with no software or said they are not preloaded with office and windows.
I have always wondered how criminals operate and by some of the responses here i can understand.
"Although about 3 million computers get sold every year in China, people don't pay for the software. Someday they will, though," Gates told an audience at the University of Washington. "And as long as they're going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade."
Peter you fail to understand one important thing, by selling pirated software you become a criminal, if you download or buy the software for personal use you are not a criminal.
Maybe you just need a lesson in right and wrong in terms of the law.
I think telkom abuse us, if i go steal their copper cables and get caught i am a criminal and i cannot say but telkom have abused us for years, this is not 4th grade bud it is real life. I doubt this guy will go to court and say but sir microsoft have abused us so i decided to make money by selling their property. If you sell a pc with pirated windows and office you are selling a pc with pirated software. I don't think he could prove he never charged for windows.
He should have then advertised a computer with no software or said they are not preloaded with office and windows.
I have always wondered how criminals operate and by some of the responses here i can understand.
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I'm not an idiot, I know that reselling warez of BSA members is illegal but as to the morality of it - I don't see it as wrong as long as he didn't charge for it and it wasn't malware (keylogger, backdoor etc) infested.
It's all nice to buy software and I have two versions of purchased MS Word/Office on my shelf here BUT when some student or her grandmother needs to write a few letters paying R3000 for MS Office seems out-of-whack - heck even paying R500 seems morally wrong.
I'll forgive you your arrogance and rudeness as you're probably very young, but don't take that sort of tone with me again, ok?
I don't see the connection here. He didn't go steal boxed sets of their software and sell them.
BTW I hope you don't think I support piracy. I don't support it BUT as said I care less for exploitive monopolistic companies than a few pirates, that's why I'm lovin' what the European Commission is doing (I also have a relative high up in Brussels.)
killadoob
Honorary Master
Peter do you know about open office? Ubuntu? I am sure for your grandmother you can easily acquire a free copy of ubuntu and open office at no cost or am i mistaken in thinking this?
Peter people reselling windows illegally is exactly the same as stealing something physical. You are making microsoft lose money while coining it, this is not a case of a person like me or you downloading it, you are reselling it.
Peter do you know that morality in a court room is non existent?
I may be young peter but i know this thread is about someone breaking the law, not morality.
The law is very clear, pirate goods on a personal level and that is a civil matter, sell pirated goods and you are no better than your average criminal which some people think the police should ignore which amazes me.
I do not care about piracy, i pirate stuff but i do not make money off pirated goods. Making money by selling someone else's work is not right in my opinion.
Peter people reselling windows illegally is exactly the same as stealing something physical. You are making microsoft lose money while coining it, this is not a case of a person like me or you downloading it, you are reselling it.
Peter do you know that morality in a court room is non existent?
I may be young peter but i know this thread is about someone breaking the law, not morality.
The law is very clear, pirate goods on a personal level and that is a civil matter, sell pirated goods and you are no better than your average criminal which some people think the police should ignore which amazes me.
I do not care about piracy, i pirate stuff but i do not make money off pirated goods. Making money by selling someone else's work is not right in my opinion.
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They do have the option of getting OpenOffice for free and it's more than capable for 90% of the people out there.
Moklet Kcuf
Senior Member
Do you think a large proportion of members here should be classed as criminals and treated as so too? Are we a whole generation of criminals because of having digital media that the Law says we are not 'technically' allowed to have?
It's a complex issue, Copyright being highly biased towards exclusivity for profit. It's a law that's not working, and needs to change in a whole facet of ways.
Sure, this guy has crossed the line, especially trying to make a buck publicly. But he's merely a grain of sand in the dunes of our economy.
No doubt he is just an everyday person who's taken a silly risk.
His bad yes, deserving punishment to come, no
killadoob
Honorary Master
The large portion of members here are not criminals, you are only a criminal when you sell the goods you download. Imagine you make a program and you find some oke selling copies of it and making cash while you sit making nothing. You think that is fine? granted microsoft are a multi billion dollar company but the same rule applies to a huge company like microsoft or a small little company producing software.
We just download we do not advertise our copies and make money off the stuff we download.
What you are saying is the next time someone breaks into your house do not phone the cops as they should be sorting out murderers and rapists.
The law is there for a reason and sure the police are doing a piss poor job of the hard crimes but according to some here the soft crimes should be ignored which is hard to believe.
We just download we do not advertise our copies and make money off the stuff we download.
What you are saying is the next time someone breaks into your house do not phone the cops as they should be sorting out murderers and rapists.
The law is there for a reason and sure the police are doing a piss poor job of the hard crimes but according to some here the soft crimes should be ignored which is hard to believe.
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Samayanaya
Well-Known Member
- Joined
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Stealing is stealing no matter how small the stolen piece of whatever is. Some of you might argue that piracy is not wrong if you use it for yourself but it still comes down to stealing.
I am not proud of being a pirate but some software is just too expensive to buy and unfortunately I can't do without some of it. Like Windows, who here has gone to, for example, Incredible connection to buy a copy of say Vista Ultimate? R4000+!!!
Anyway on a side note I found this article and thought it would be good to share...
P2P not to blame for content industry failures says EU
I am not proud of being a pirate but some software is just too expensive to buy and unfortunately I can't do without some of it. Like Windows, who here has gone to, for example, Incredible connection to buy a copy of say Vista Ultimate? R4000+!!!
Anyway on a side note I found this article and thought it would be good to share...
P2P not to blame for content industry failures says EU
I am Penguin
Executive Member
- Joined
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Bwahahahah, must i believe You? Is the relative in Brussels as high up as those friends in Japan?
Anyway, enjoy.
I am Penguin
Executive Member
- Joined
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So redistributing pirate software is OK? WoW!
Kuga
Expert Member
and why have they not caught the guys stealing bandwidth from me and countless clients. I have 2 cases pending since last year. My place was burgled last week, lots of stock stolen, the police simply told me to call my insurance as they do not have time to investigate such matters. Whats the difference then? They dont have time to investigate? but they have time to catch 1 guy selling the worst OS M$ has ever made. They should be paying him for advertising a failed OS.
The sad fact of the matter is, is that when you tell a customer that windows in an extra R800 (xp home) and office is an extra R1300 (07 student) then they tell you they rather going elsewhere because the dealer down the street is going to give them everythng for free.
Just my 2c
kevinswan007
Expert Member
If only he used Windows 7 beta.
Moklet Kcuf
Senior Member
Wrong, you are performing a criminal act by knowingly using illegal software or media.
Sure this guy has allegedly been a provider of pirated software, but is he really any more guilty than everyone else who knowingly uses illegal digital content?
Maybe, because he's pocketing a little cash, but it's not as though he's a endangering someones life.
Affiliated to organised crime? unlikely. In a way, Copyright is organised crime.
eltherza
Expert Member
Well, after the criminals set me and my family on fire, they'll arrive 2 hours late because they were to busy arresting the pirate selling PCs with pre-installed window.
I think alot of people here feel that the money, effort and time should be re-directed more to public safety than this for now. Ok, I'm making these numbers up, but here goes:
R2000 for the cops to investigate (salaries and all)
R5000 for the lawyer in court + judges time
R300 a month to keep this person jailed (or for 5 years that's about R15000)
So in total, it's cost the country more than R22000 for this pirate to be dealt with. Alot of us feel that this R22000 should rather be spent in protecting us from voilent crimes.
Dont think people are arguing that piracy is "not wrong" but most of us with families would rather have that money spend on protecting our children.
Lazy
Senior Member
So, after an undercover sting, investigation and 2 raids this is what they found? Hardly a massive sting.
Having been attacked at home I agree with this statement. HOWEVER, that does not mean that so called 'small crimes' should be overlooked. Fact is, this guy was an idiot.eltherza said:
Arthur
Honorary Master
Though I don't know the details in this particular case, I can tell you how this sort of thing works (I jointly founded the BSA in SA, together with AutoDesk, in 1992):
In almost all cases of this nature, the pirate is reported to the BSA by another dealer or a disgruntled end-user. The matter is investigated by the BSA and a prima facie case is established through private investigation using BSA subscription funds obtained from the 15 odd software vendors who are members of the local BSA. Typically the reporting dealer (or BSA, if there is no complaining dealer) buys a system with pirated software to verify the complaint and obtain evidence. Depending on the specifics of the case, the pirate reseller is approached by the BSA and vendors whose software is pirated and is asked to legalise and sell licensed software. It is only when the pirate reseller refuses (or often agrees in word but not in deed) that the matter is reported to a special unit in the SAPS that deals specifically and only with IP (Intellectual Property) issues, who, based on the evidence, take normal police steps against the pirate (a criminal action).
Before anyone sounds off further about waste of police resources, etc:
* "Piracy" is a criminal offence in SA, and in about 110 countries worldwide. This is not a new thing or specific to the computer industry.
* The SAPS unit dealing with IP is set up in consequence of international treaties to which SA has acceeded, and local enabling legislation giving effect to those treaties. The SAPS IP unit can't be reassigned without SA withdrawing from those treaties and thereby becoming a pariah in the global IP regime (and being kicked out of Interpol).
* The very great majority of cases handled by the SAPS IP unit concern counterfeit and pirate goods for the media and apparel industry (movies, music, clothing, etc); only a very small percentage of the caseload concerns software conterfeiting and piracy.
* These matters are NOT handled by your local cop station or the regular CID and absolutely in no way affects regular policing action. No cop is taken off a rape or burglary case and reassigned to arresting a software pirate! Neither is the matter handled through the local police station. As is normal protocol, when a national unit takes an action in a policing area, the local commander is informed, and he might well send one of his cops along just to observe and assist, especially if an Anton Piller order is being executed. This is good police management.
* BSA action is taken when all the member vendors agree. These matters are discussed in detail at BSA meetings over many months, and every single vendor (who are fierce competitors outside the meeting) agrees to the anti-piracy action.
* Software piracy doesn't just hurt the vendors. It hurts regular legitimate computer distributors and dealers, who are undercut by dealers stealing software and profiting from theft. For every dollar lost by vendors, computer dealers and the non-vendor computer industry loses at least $3. The tax base is eroded, placing a greater strain on normal taxpayers. Users also fail to benefit from all the services offered by software vendors.
* No-one buys software - they buy a licence to use it in accordance with the terms and conditions set by the owner. Software remains the property of the vendor (as do movies, music, etc - this is not a Microsoft thing but common to every commercial software vendor).
* Using someone else's property without their permission is theft pure and simple. It's rather hypocritical sounding off about the decay of standards and morality in society when you steal other people's property. Just because it's easy to do so with a computer doesn't change the morality. Whatever the state of policing and legal action in a society, this is in the end a personal moral decision about the kind of person you want to be. And the kind of person you are vitally affects society.
In almost all cases of this nature, the pirate is reported to the BSA by another dealer or a disgruntled end-user. The matter is investigated by the BSA and a prima facie case is established through private investigation using BSA subscription funds obtained from the 15 odd software vendors who are members of the local BSA. Typically the reporting dealer (or BSA, if there is no complaining dealer) buys a system with pirated software to verify the complaint and obtain evidence. Depending on the specifics of the case, the pirate reseller is approached by the BSA and vendors whose software is pirated and is asked to legalise and sell licensed software. It is only when the pirate reseller refuses (or often agrees in word but not in deed) that the matter is reported to a special unit in the SAPS that deals specifically and only with IP (Intellectual Property) issues, who, based on the evidence, take normal police steps against the pirate (a criminal action).
Before anyone sounds off further about waste of police resources, etc:
* "Piracy" is a criminal offence in SA, and in about 110 countries worldwide. This is not a new thing or specific to the computer industry.
* The SAPS unit dealing with IP is set up in consequence of international treaties to which SA has acceeded, and local enabling legislation giving effect to those treaties. The SAPS IP unit can't be reassigned without SA withdrawing from those treaties and thereby becoming a pariah in the global IP regime (and being kicked out of Interpol).
* The very great majority of cases handled by the SAPS IP unit concern counterfeit and pirate goods for the media and apparel industry (movies, music, clothing, etc); only a very small percentage of the caseload concerns software conterfeiting and piracy.
* These matters are NOT handled by your local cop station or the regular CID and absolutely in no way affects regular policing action. No cop is taken off a rape or burglary case and reassigned to arresting a software pirate! Neither is the matter handled through the local police station. As is normal protocol, when a national unit takes an action in a policing area, the local commander is informed, and he might well send one of his cops along just to observe and assist, especially if an Anton Piller order is being executed. This is good police management.
* BSA action is taken when all the member vendors agree. These matters are discussed in detail at BSA meetings over many months, and every single vendor (who are fierce competitors outside the meeting) agrees to the anti-piracy action.
* Software piracy doesn't just hurt the vendors. It hurts regular legitimate computer distributors and dealers, who are undercut by dealers stealing software and profiting from theft. For every dollar lost by vendors, computer dealers and the non-vendor computer industry loses at least $3. The tax base is eroded, placing a greater strain on normal taxpayers. Users also fail to benefit from all the services offered by software vendors.
* No-one buys software - they buy a licence to use it in accordance with the terms and conditions set by the owner. Software remains the property of the vendor (as do movies, music, etc - this is not a Microsoft thing but common to every commercial software vendor).
* Using someone else's property without their permission is theft pure and simple. It's rather hypocritical sounding off about the decay of standards and morality in society when you steal other people's property. Just because it's easy to do so with a computer doesn't change the morality. Whatever the state of policing and legal action in a society, this is in the end a personal moral decision about the kind of person you want to be. And the kind of person you are vitally affects society.
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eltherza
Expert Member
But thats the problem, as a community we feel that our own protection from violent crimes should be a higher priority than a varsity student selling pre-installed [illegal] windows.
I'd rather know my tax is going to protecting me and my family and providing SAPS the tools to do so. You have to agree that people's priority is their family over some stranger pirating. Doesnt make pirating trivial, it has it place, but in todays world, is it really such a deal the (media,companies) make out? Or are peoples lives not as important as an original windows vista being sold?
And using PUBLIC resources for a private company profits over protecting the public isn't a moral issue? Piracy worse than murder? Where are your moral ethics?
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