South Africans emmigrating & Europeans immigrating

[TooFastTim]

McNabs is wrong & Jungleboy is correct. However Jungleboy has blustered into the forums and seems to have absolutely no idea about diplomacy.

Jungleboy, do you know when McNabs left SA? Nope? For all you know it was last week, so you are way out of line in that regard.

Second, I seem that you are a member of the "you have left SA therefore you have no right to criticise" school of thought, which is closely related to the "if you leave SA you're chicken" school of thought. Well JB, a hell of a lot SA people are leaving now and they are the very people SA needs to dig itself out of the terrible mess it is now in, so you'd better get used to it.

Third, an African American does not benefit from AA (as JB correctly stated) but a black guy with matric (with standard grade maths & science) is worth more on the SA labour market than a 35 yo whate, male engineer. Fact. So maybe those people who are leaving have something to bitch about.

JB, you and your type are the very reason that those people are leaving, faced with mind numbing ignorance and predjudice those emigrants have finally given up trying to contribute to a country and people who neither understand nor value their contribution to society.

 

[LoneGunman]

re europeans
"They have seen & travelled more of the world, their economies are much stronger and bigger, and they have been through 2 world wars"

Sorry, but cheap flights here and there on Ryan Air or Easy Jet for the weekend, don't
equal 'real experience' - and sure, their economies are stronger and bigger, but so what? I wasn't talking about that at all.

I was talking about personal attitude and thickness of skin, and willingness to endure.

And as for "they have been through 2 world wars" - again, you're talking about the generation that's now in their 70's and 80's. The younger generation are fairly gormless - at least in the UK - coz again, watching TV, shopping, and being lager louts doesn't equal 'life experience'.

I was attacking the general namby pamby level of life experience of folks in the EU, compared to the fairly harsh warzone-like level of life in SA.

I would suggest that the only folks in the EU who are faintly 'similar' in terms of dealing with repression, violence, and heavy doses of real politics (aside from official refugees) - are the folks from the former Soviet regions.

Sorry if I was effectively making the point that South Africans CAN succeed in
the UK, and be more effective than the locals there.
Weird that you don't like this idea.
( *irony* )

 

[bwana]

...
I was talking about personal attitude and thickness of skin, and willingness to endure.

And as for "they have been through 2 world wars" - again, you're talking about the generation that's now in their 70's and 80's. The younger generation are fairly gormless - at least in the UK - coz again, watching TV, shopping, and being lager louts doesn't equal 'life experience'.

I was attacking the general namby pamby level of life experience of folks in the EU, compared to the fairly harsh warzone-like level of life in SA.

I would suggest that the only folks in the EU who are faintly 'similar' in terms of dealing with repression, violence, and heavy doses of real politics (aside from official refugees) - are the folks from the former Soviet regions.

Make me wonder, if you couldn't hack it here what chance do I have.

 

[koffiejunkie]

2) In public offices, you are treated like you are unwanted, the same like other foreigners from Turkey...

I can't say I agree. Every "public office" I've dealt with have provided me a far more satisfying experience than the equivalent in S.A. Registering for NI/tax - quick, friendly and painless. Applying for my driver's license took all of 10 minutes, wait time included - didn't even need an appointment. My bank's staff voluntarily points out to me that my account is costing me more than I need to pay. My bank is trying to save me money?

Compare this to the general "you're interfering with my solitaire game, you colonialist low-life" attitude I tend to get when trying to do anything administrative in S.A. (applying for my card license, new passport, getting my tax return sorted after SARS messed it up - they still owe me money for my 2003 return!). I'll take the "unwanted foreigner" treatment any day.

Not really, they think you are Dutch (regardless of whether you speak English or Afrikaans).

Funny that. In the UK, the English know I'm from S.A. and other foreigners I encounter generally don't know English well enough to know I'm not British. In the US (on several trips to different parts of the country), people thought I was from Australia. In The Netherlands people just think I'm funny.

Bullsh#t!! AA does not even benefit a black man from Africa!!!

Then who exactly does it benefit?

 

[Alan]

I wonder what percentage of immigrants live in the Euro enclave on the southern tip of our country.

They all hold EU passports so they can go back to europe no problem if things dont work out. That safety net as well as the strong pound and euro play a big part.

If they were forced to swap citizenship with a South African that's leaving I'd bet hardly any would actually immigrate here

 

[koffiejunkie]

I wonder what percentage of immigrants live in the Euro enclave on the southern tip of our country.

I would guess a fair percentage. Just about any place you rent here belongs to a Brit living in some 3rd world country. Sounds like a damn good retirement policy to me.

My old flat was one in a old house that was split into four flats and renovated quite nicely. Combined rent, from what I can tell, is over £5k. Even after tax that would make for a pretty nice life even here. Imagine living on that kinda money in S.A...

 

[Skinner]

re europeans
"They have seen & travelled more of the world, their economies are much stronger and bigger, and they have been through 2 world wars"

Sorry, but cheap flights here and there on Ryan Air or Easy Jet for the weekend, don't
equal 'real experience' -

They have seen and travelled more of the world than your average South African.

and sure, their economies are stronger and bigger, but so what?

It means they know how to handle large amounts of money. Which is more than I can say for most South Africans, who live in debt.

I was talking about personal attitude and thickness of skin, and willingness to endure.

You mean the many young South Africans who are in London and eventually can't take it anymore and return to SA? Instead of staying in London and trying to get a permanent residence there or elsewhere in Europe?

The younger generation are fairly gormless - at least in the UK - coz again, watching TV, shopping, and being lager louts doesn't equal 'life experience'.

So what typical "life experience" do South Africans have that Europeans don't?

I was attacking the general namby pamby level of life experience of folks in the EU, compared to the fairly harsh warzone-like level of life in SA.

The European workplace environment and tough product & service competition is warzone enough. Come live and work in a couple of European countries for a few years and you will experience it first-hand. Sink or swim. SA working environments are like heaven in comparison.

I would suggest that the only folks in the EU who are faintly 'similar' in terms of dealing with repression, violence, and heavy doses of real politics (aside from official refugees) - are the folks from the former Soviet regions.

Yes and they live everywhere throughout Europe. They will push into the queue at the public office in front of you without blinking an eye. Europe is a complete mix and you hardly know anymore who's who and which is which.

Sorry if I was effectively making the point that South Africans CAN succeed in the UK, and be more effective than the locals there.

Well from what I heard, South Africans are fast getting a bad repuration in London.
Secondly, Europe does not constitute just the UK.
Thirdly, the comman parent-to-son saying "Son, go to the UK, get some life experience" directly contradicts your view that South Africans have enough life experience to begin with.

 

[milomak]

It is interesting how every foreigner who is working in SA loves it here. For sure the earnings they make help. But I would have to say something in the order of 95% of them are positive about South Africa and are not thinking of going back home in the next couple of years.

So even factoring danger pay into account, there must be something genuine in their sentiment. Or maybe they just lie to me to make me feel better about SA.

 

[alloytoo]

Strange and ironic logic: so many South Africans can't wait to get out of SA, while so many Europeans can't wait to get INTO SA.

I hear of so many Europeans that go and settle in SA, and how wonderful their lives are there. They even make TV programs here in Europe about it. From the poor to the rich, scores and scores of them. And one can't help but notice more and more Europeans settling in and around Cape Town.

Who can explain this irony?
Are these Europeans stupid by wanting to settle in SA, or are the South Africans stupid by wanting to leave SA?

Funny, UK couple been in the country 20 years, one hijacking was all it took.

But you know, money isn't everything, something about the 55 murders a day seems to deter all my friends overseas from returning, can't figure out why.

 

[Skinner]

But you know, money isn't everything, something about the 55 murders a day seems to deter all my friends overseas from returning, can't figure out why.

Well it doesn't deter the thousands of Europeans that come in to settle in SA... and I'm pretty sure they would do their homework about SA's crime and murder rate etc. before they decide to come live in SA!

 

[milomak]

Funny, UK couple been in the country 20 years, one hijacking was all it took.

But you know, money isn't everything, something about the 55 murders a day seems to deter all my friends overseas from returning, can't figure out why.

Having been in SA for 20 years I would suggest that they had become to think like South Africans. And in any event I think that the op is talking about Europeans who are not currently residing in SA.

 

[alloytoo]

Well it doesn't deter the thousands of Europeans that come in to settle in SA... and I'm pretty sure they would do their homework about SA's crime and murder rate etc. before they decide to come live in SA!

Thing is, they're not actually settlers, they're much the same as any other worker in say Dubai or Singapore or Malaysia.

When the work's done they'll laugh, shake their heads and shove their EU passports at the EU customs official and have a nice collection of dinner stories.

We'll have paid an obscene amount for transient skills, and allienated any worthwhile local ones.

Since 1994 our skills based, like our electricity, road and education system have been sorely nelected.

Not to mention Canada, Australia & New Zealand are actively poaching our skills as we sleep.

 

[alloytoo]

Having been in SA for 20 years I would suggest that they had become to think like South Africans. And in any event I think that the op is talking about Europeans who are not currently residing in SA.

Yes indeed, they're in the loop. Take a while for new guys to learn the ropes.

 

[milomak]

Thing is, they're not actually settlers, they're much the same as any other worker in say Dubai or Singapore or Malaysia.

When the work's done they'll laugh, shake their heads and shove their EU passports at the EU customs official and have a nice collection of dinner stories.

We'll have paid an obscene amount for transient skills, and allienated any worthwhile local ones.

Since 1994 our skills based, like our electricity, road and education system have been sorely nelected.

Not to mention Canada, Australia & New Zealand are actively poaching our skills as we sleep.

the point though is that it is unlikely they will not know of the challenges facing SA. A steady stream of people will not come if they all think they will be killed tomorrow.

You do raise an interesting point though. Are SA companies not willing to pay to keep local talent? Or are the foreigners asking for less than what it would take to keep those emigrating? Or are those emigrating at a point where they have no faith in SA no matter the price?

 

[MacNabs]

guys this is a load of bull twaddle. Europeans are in no ways streaming into SA as much as people will love you to believe so. Sure there are the odd ones that end up somewhere in the Cape and love it, (they have their Euros/pounds and passports to fall back on), Man the poms can moan, will love to hear how they are moaning about all those power cuts, must be difficult keeping that kettle boiling for all that English tea. I do not see hordes of these guys coming into the country by the thousands, instead I see hordes of people leaving, and hordes of poor people coming into the country from Zim contributing to the booming economy of steeling and corruption. Dam the last figures i was quoted was something like 5000 people a day from Zim (these were legal immigrants, not counting the illegal's)!!! Lets not forget the 1million people that have left SA since 1994!! I highly doubt that their is in fact just 1 European immigrating to SA per day, and in fact those that do immigrate to SA the chances are very high that they will be returning, tail between the legs. Also, there is a big difference between immigrating and working in SA. Home affairs in SA is useless, they do not even know how to process a passport or supply me with a birth certificate, and they suppose to be processing all of these hundreds and thousands of forms for all the new English immigrants? dam that's funny.

I myself having left the Cape last year am now in the desperate struggle of getting the rest of our family out of SA, I work with plenty of poms here in NZ, many of them have been to SA and enjoyed the holiday, but going their to live? worse emigrating to SA? No matter how stupid some of these poms are, i doubt any of them would ever give up their EU/British passports for SA citizenship, now really, this News Article is a load of horse twoddle. After all what does SA really offer Europeans that AUS/NZ does not?

 

[MacNabs]

Bullsh#t!! AA does not even benefit a black man from Africa!!! Dude you've been gone too long you'r starting to speak nonsense. Why don't you join a forum in NZ? that way you have a better chance of posting stuff you have 1st hand experience of.

Dude, if you black and you are not south african and you have a south african ID book or work visa, you got the job. The white South African guy needs to step back. Get over yourself, its true.

PS: You can buy a South African ID book at your local homaffairs branch, the friendly fellow will love to help you our for 100bucks, just as long as you black.

 

[Lord Anubis]

I do some of travelling (for work) overseas. At least total 3 months a year if you add it up. True South Africa is well advertised overseas, especially in the UK and Netherlands, France, Belgium etc on TV (E.G. sKY and ITV often have "South African Tourism" announcements before weather etc). and yes there is a lot of appeal for South Africa as a holiday destination. Even I somethimes feel homesick and that's after a few weeks away....BUT....... it only takes 30 seconds after you exit the international departures door at OLIVER TAMBO INTERNATIONAL DUNGPILE ROBBERS NETS AIRPORT that you want to geo back inside and get back on a plan and leave.

Try it. As soon as you leave that doorway you see filth, construction, dubious taxi's, cops sleeping on the job, dirty pavement, vrot JHB air and worse still as you leave the airport you are bombarded with traffic jams, billboards and the moment you get home or to your hotel you had better get inside quick before you get killed (followed from the airport) and hey you may not even have electricity due to loadshedding or substations been blown up and don't even think of going to draw money as the ATM could be a ticking time bomb... SO YOU HOOK UP YOU LAPTOP AND VOILA ..NO WIFI OR LOVELY HOTEL 128KB/S AT $1 A MINUTE

I say it again....SA MAAK MY NAAR

 

[Robin Hood]

Strange and ironic logic: so many South Africans can't wait to get out of SA, while so many Europeans can't wait to get INTO SA.

I hear of so many Europeans that go and settle in SA, and how wonderful their lives are there. They even make TV programs here in Europe about it. From the poor to the rich, scores and scores of them. And one can't help but notice more and more Europeans settling in and around Cape Town.

Who can explain this irony?
Are these Europeans stupid by wanting to settle in SA, or are the South Africans stupid by wanting to leave SA?

Its actually a very simple answer...South Africans KNOW what's going on in this country as they were born here and know it inside-out...the Europeans don't...

 

[alloytoo]

the point though is that it is unlikely they will not know of the challenges facing SA. A steady stream of people will not come if they all think they will be killed tomorrow.

You do raise an interesting point though. Are SA companies not willing to pay to keep local talent? Or are the foreigners asking for less than what it would take to keep those emigrating? Or are those emigrating at a point where they have no faith in SA no matter the price?

Those immigrating now, have lived in SA since 1994, they're devoted 14 years to the country, enduring high taxes and crumbling standards. They've come to the conclusion that they're wasting their time.

 

[Drone 42]

@ Skinner

Dude I don't know where you have lived. I myself have worked in Europe for a couple of years. My brothers, sisters and other family members have worked and are still working in Europe, America and Asia. Don't know where you get this rubbish you are talking from. In all the different positions I had in Europe I got treated no different than anybody else, sometimes even more respected because the locals actually learnt from me. Government institutions there are way more efficient than here. I mean the other day it took me 3 hours to book and pay to get a learners license for my bike here in SA. You say the average person oversees have traveled and seen the world, what rubbish. They might go on package tours to Spain and Greece but that's hardly traveling. That's like a person from JHB going to Cape Town for a few days. Most South Africans I know that has traveled has been to the far flung places in the world and backpacked through them on a tight budget. That's much harder than the traveling the average european does. Have you seen actually what % of americans have a passport. I know people in the UK that haven't even been out of their county never mind London or other european cities. And most europeans than come and settle here are basically retired or semi retired and live on their government pensions that are allot especially in Rand. And those TV shows you speak of, do you really think they will show any bad things that happen to foreigners here, they most likely only show the success stories. And to your question about people going to Europe to get life experience, they go because it is something different to what they are used to, and where else should they go Zimbabwe?