South Africans emmigrating & Europeans immigrating

[Skinner]

Veritable babel it seems. Luckily English is the most common second language in the world.

You clearly have not seen much of non-tourist Europe if you think that you can get by easily with just English in most of these countries.

Indeed, I know of many persons of European descent looking to leave, forever is not as long as it sounds.

Define your understanding of "European descent".

Alas I'm too busy working to hang out in trendy bristro's with tourists.

Unfortunately this limitation of yours then also disqualifies you from making assessments of the amount and mental state of happiness of most Europeans here, since "trendy bistro's" is indeed an important meeting place for most of them.

Alas, they are returned, to Portugal, to Greece, to England and Ireland, though of course some of my European cousins have settled in Oz.

Would it be fair for me to assume that they have become "South Africanised" after many years, and learned to think like most lame South Africans? That everything is doom and gloom for SA, the end of SA, and oh everything is so horrible... we must escape... ugh!

 

[Skinner]

And people in other coutries do not?

For most of Europe, no they don't.
Far more people in Europe actually save up for something before they buy it, unlike most stupid South Africans that run out and buy on debt, just to keep up with the Jones'.

You like to say that, but give us some specific examples.

Sure.
Unlike SA, in Europe:
1) You can forget about Friday afternoon early off.
2) Social skills don't make up for solid experience and performance.
3) Your time problems are your problem. You will find a way of getting everything done. Without any help.
4) Giving birthday gifts at work are met with resentment.
5) Every cent is counted. If you waste anything, you will be reprimanded.
6) Time ticks against you and no excuse is acceptable. Not even if a relative died. In fact you won't even hear any words of condolence.
7) Social taxes, in most European countries, nail you so that you get 50% out of your salary, and they are not even tax deductable!

Still wondering why Europeans find SA such a breeze...?

 

[alloytoo]

You clearly have not seen much of non-tourist Europe if you think that you can get by easily with just English in most of these countries.

It's all in the attitude dude.

Define your understanding of "European descent".

Someone who is one or two generations removed from europe, and has family, (aunt's, uncles, cousins) whom they are in contact with with.

Unfortunately this limitation of yours then also disqualifies you from making assessments of the amount and mental state of happiness of most Europeans here, since "trendy bistro's" is indeed an important meeting place for most of them.

It's like a Douglas Adams novel.

Would it be fair for me to assume that they have become "South Africanised" after many years, and learned to think like most lame South Africans? That everything is doom and gloom for SA, the end of SA, and oh everything is so horrible... we must escape... ugh!

No it wouldn't be fair to assume that at all. They moved to Oz from the UK.

 

[Skinner]

From all your post I sometimes wonder how in touch with reality are you.

I have worked and travelled around SA and Europe for many years.
I have many contacts in my relevant industry, in both countries. Some formal and some personal.
I watch TV in Europe. Lame as it may sound, it is actually quite informative.
I read newspaper on the public transport.
I read News24 every day.

Your comments on other peoples comments are most of the time lame and have no basis.

For example which comments to whom?

It seems you just need to post something back no matter how stupid it is.

Your opinion that my replies are stupid.

You even check my old posts about a visa I needed to get, really weird. In that post if you read it again I just said R750 is allot because you can go to others countries for free or cheaper or without the hassle of getting a visa.

Oh really. Which other Europe-comparible countries?
Egypt? Angola? Don't make me laugh.

Go look at VISA costs for most 1st world countries (like Europe), they all cost now around that value. There have been massive price hikes in the Visas those countries issue since the start of this year. Or are you not up to date with these?

And that Europeans can come here also without the need for a visa that I felt was a bit unfair. Thanks to alloytoo for responding to the lame comments. He basically said everything I wanted to.

Huh? About what?

Because like I said I was treated no different than any other employee and the competitiveness in all the positions I had was basically the same as here.

You were in a hierarchical structure working environment, in your immediate team / department setup?

Here with all the affirmative action you also need to be competitive and prove yourself otherwise you will get nowhere.

Something all the Europeans working in SA (or running their own companies) seem not to have any problems with.

And are you totally kidding yourself with the reality shows, no reality show is based on reality.

The degree in which it is based on reality, obviously varies.
And as I said: the TV shows were not the main basis for my argument. I also know plenty Europeans who live in SA that can't get enough of their AA workers and their families, the game parks, the beautiful beaches, the friendly people... for sure they are worried about the crime but it doesn't put them off. The reasons thereof can be debated but still: SA doesn't put them off really. Else they wouldn't be staying. I can promise you, a European that is unhappy with something, will damn well do something about it.

I still just wonder where these hordes of students and Europeans are that you speak of. I never see or meet them.

When last have you studied at a big university in SA or were actively involved at some big university?

And I bet you for every 500 South africans leaving 1 european comes here. There are no hordes. Do you know what that word means.

I just wonder where these hordes of South Africans leaving that you speak of, are. I never see or meet them. London is flooded with South Africans but it is just because of the UK Working Visa scheme. Elsewhere in the world there are small pockets of South African communities (Perth, Canada, NZ, etc.).

Maybe you are just a bit disolutioned with how you got treated in Europe.

My argument is not about how I was treated only in Europe per se, but more how my experiences of working and dealing with the public differed for similar cases between Europe and SA, even after significant adaptation attempts and time spent in Europe.

Lets be honest it is not always great over there and no land of milk and honey but it is not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. That's my whole point. Likewise it is not always bad over here, you just have to adapt to your surroundings and it is mostly up to you and your attitude how things turn out.

Sure. The amount of adaptation in Europe required for South Africans is just significantly more than that required for Europeans in SA - and that is my whole point with this thread, and wondering why it is like that.

You also said no european will help you withs things, I got helped lots of times, maybe it has something to do with charisma.

You been in non-tourist-areas of Paris yet?

 

[Skinner]

It's all in the attitude dude.

See, that's where most South Africans are mistaken I think.
They think since their wise and confident macho attitude gets them somewhere in SA, it will work in Europe. While there are places in Europe where confidence, streetwise and friendlyness will get you somewhere, it is my experience that for most places in Europe, your attitude will be completely useless and the response you get (if any) will be no different if you had an "attitude" or not.

THIS is what I quickly learned in Europe.

Anywhere in SA, I can use my charm and "attitude" (as you state it) and get helped. Government offices are however a different story

Someone who is one or two generations removed from europe, and has family, (aunt's, uncles, cousins) whom they are in contact with with.

So in other words, long enough to start to think like most South Africans.

How about Europeans that came to SA post-1994?

 

[Slooth]

All these arguments over some dubious statement about europeans apprently flocking over here

 

[Skinner]

All these arguments over some dubious statement about europeans apprently flocking over here

Well I am surprised by the apparent lack of recognition some South Africans have of all the Europeans in their own back yard. Cape Town and surroundings being the best example. The same people doesn't seem to recognise foreigners around them, and then they speak of having "life experience" and "attitude". The same people also doesn't seem to know that most luxury property along Camps Bay and Clifton now are owned by Europeans (mostly Germans). This was CONFIRMED to me 2 months ago by a Cape Town municipality property deeds worker.

I suppose it is better than it all being owned by the Chinese

 

[Slooth]

Well I am surprised by the apparent lack of recognition some South Africans have of all the Europeans in their own back yard. Cape Town and surroundings being the best example. The same people doesn't seem to recognise foreigners around them, and then they speak of having "life experience" and "attitude". The same people also doesn't seem to know that most luxury property along Camps Bay and Clifton now are owned by Europeans (mostly Germans). This was CONFIRMED to me 2 months ago by a Cape Town municipality property deeds worker.

I suppose it is better than it all being owned by the Chinese

I once bumped into an American on the beach front in Durban, nice fellow; great conversation. But it's hardly enough to say Americans are flocking to our shores; now is it?

 

[alloytoo]

See, that's where most South Africans are mistaken I think.
They think since their wise and confident macho attitude gets them somewhere in SA, it will work in Europe. While there are places in Europe where confidence, streetwise and friendlyness will get you somewhere, it is my experience that for most places in Europe, your attitude will be completely useless and the response you get (if any) will be no different if you had an "attitude" or not.

THIS is what I quickly learned in Europe.

Anywhere in SA, I can use my charm and "attitude" (as you state it) and get helped. Government offices are however a different story

I'm glad you learnt quickly, of course those who didn't have "attitude" to start with didn't have it quite as difficult.

So in other words, long enough to start to think like most South Africans.

I'm not terribly sure what the south African attitude is. If it's your attitude then most people I associate with don't have it.

How about Europeans that came to SA post-1994?

Got an email from them the other day, happily going to job interviews in London.

Then I was surprised to learn about the chap teaching English in China...go figure.

Elsewhere in the world there are small pockets of South African communities (Perth, Canada, NZ, etc.).

Well Auckland seems to boast considerably more than a small pocket, but again your attitude in NZ does seem to effect your experience.

 

[Skinner]

I once bumped into an American on the beach front in Durban, nice fellow; great conversation. But it's hardly enough to say Americans are flocking to our shores; now is it?

Of course not. But that is not the examples I used, now is it?

There lives 20,000 Germans in Somerset West. I'm sure there are many sources that are able to verify this. To give you one example.

 

[LancelotSA]

Skinner, you have recognised what I have seen and that is that most South Africans are not able to see what they have in their own backyard. They have become blinkered and the only thought that possesses a lot of them is getting out of this country, not what opportunities are available here.

They are so busy organising visas and going to emigration seminars that they forget to live. This leads to life in South Africa becoming even less appealing to them as they are not living but merely ticking on until they get to leave.

No one else here seems to acknowledge the existence of foreigners in this country which is strange. Perhaps they are so consumed with leaving that they are not mingling and making friends. I suppose this makes sense... why bother making new friends if you are leaving somewhere. I do not have a large group of friends by any stretch of the imagination but of those I know four Swedes, two English, three Chinese and two Dutch people who now call South Africa home. The shortest length of time lived here by them is three years, the longest 15. The ages range from 24 to 37.

And these are people that currently stay here. I will not even mention the stacks of friends of theirs that have come over on holiday, left and expressed a strong desire to come back as soon as possible. Some even talking about perhaps looking for work here.

But again I reiterate, some people clearly walk through this country of ours so blinkered that they will only ever see what they want to see. There are none so blind as those who will not see....

 

[jambai]

It is interesting how every foreigner who is working in SA loves it here. For sure the earnings they make help. But I would have to say something in the order of 95% of them are positive about South Africa and are not thinking of going back home in the next couple of years.

So even factoring danger pay into account, there must be something genuine in their sentiment. Or maybe they just lie to me to make me feel better about SA.

aGREE ,but its foreign passport as a safety net that gives them comfort.the rich are positive about sa as well cause they know that things have to go really bad before they are affected

 

[Skinner]

My dad does property development and has told me many times how europeans are buying property here like crazy, golfing estates for example are making millions right now actually with all the europeans bidding 10x the value.

It makes sense though.. compare the size of SA to the UK and most of the land here is still ready for development and free of people hence being crime free by default until settlements pitch up of course then expect there to be crime.

Yet another independant proof of my statements, but I'm sure it will be whiffed off by some here, claiming they personally are not aware of any Europeans buying property, so hey, it must be false! Damn me!

 

[Skinner]

aGREE ,but its foreign passport as a safety net that gives them comfort.the rich are positive about sa as well cause they know that things have to go really bad before they are affected

100% correct, this is a perfectly plausible explanation for my statements that many Europeans are:
1) Moving to SA, at least for some years
2) Enjoying it in SA
3) Have less adaptation issues in SA than South Africans have in Europe

The others that have commented here, seems to spend more attention on disclaiming my statements in the first place, while looking past the more-than-evident proof that is right in their own backyards, and explanations as given here by jambai (and other sensible posters) which are perfectly reasonable.

 

[Skinner]

Skinner, you have recognised what I have seen and that is that most South Africans are not able to see what they have in their own backyard. They have become blinkered and the only thought that possesses a lot of them is getting out of this country, not what opportunities are available here.

They are so busy organising visas and going to emigration seminars that they forget to live. This leads to life in South Africa becoming even less appealing to them as they are not living but merely ticking on until they get to leave.

No one else here seems to acknowledge the existence of foreigners in this country which is strange. Perhaps they are so consumed with leaving that they are not mingling and making friends. I suppose this makes sense... why bother making new friends if you are leaving somewhere. I do not have a large group of friends by any stretch of the imagination but of those I know four Swedes, two English, three Chinese and two Dutch people who now call South Africa home. The shortest length of time lived here by them is three years, the longest 15. The ages range from 24 to 37.

And these are people that currently stay here. I will not even mention the stacks of friends of theirs that have come over on holiday, left and expressed a strong desire to come back as soon as possible. Some even talking about perhaps looking for work here.

But again I reiterate, some people clearly walk through this country of ours so blinkered that they will only ever see what they want to see. There are none so blind as those who will not see....

Bingo!!!!!
Spot on the hammer Lancelot, I couldn't have said it better.

You have explained it in a unique way that until this point I have been struggling to bring across to some posters here, to help them take the blinkers off their eyes (to use your example).

South Africans like these are so consumed with their own problems and issues with South Africa, that they cannot bear seeing anyone else (e.g. Europeans) living in South Africa and enjoying it. They cannot bear the truth that these foreigners are making the best out of AA and really seem to get along with the "locals", while South Africans struggle abroad. To sort this frustration out for themselves, they resort to disclaiming any claims contrary to their wishful beliefs, on public internet forums like these, and various other nastinesses.

In the last recent posts there have been even more examples of Europeans living in SA, settling, buying property, running businesses and enjoying life. The bitter, jealous South Africans cannot handle the fact that the Europeans are in some way managing to enjoy life in SA, while they themselves must suffer in SA and oh just have to leave as soon as possible - to another country where things are not exactly milk and honey either.

And the above form the basis for all the attacks I've had against my now-independantly-proven statements from certain individuals so far in this topic.

Travelling and working abroad in many countries have opened my eyes. I can only hope for the same for some blinkered South Africans.

That is all.

 

[KillerX]

So, if we have all these europeans "flocking" here. And most europeans are considered skilled workers, than why do we have an ever increasing skills shortage in this country?

Let me guess, skinner and lancelot will answer: Because things are going so great in south africa, we cant keep up...

Do you honestly think they will immigrate to an african country bordering a failed state, a country with an uncertain future, looming crisises and the most violent and dangerous country on the planet? Why? cause the weather is nice?

The only europeans coming here now are people buying holiday homes like you mentioned in camps bay or clifton which they can visit for 1 or 2 weeks a year. Thats it.

The exodus of europeans coming to south africa happened in the 50's - 80's and is long over.

I too know many people of 'european' decent, germans, porra's, greeks... and let me tell you, they are either busy immigrating or strongly considering it. Dont fool yourself, it has nothing to do with 'attitude', south africa is not the paradise it once was.

 

[kilos]

The 1820 settlers left England as we all as the French & Dutch
to come to the Cape well looks like the roles are nor reversed
with all those folks going back to where their fore fathers came
from. Yeah its weird

 

[LoneGunman]

re "They cannot bear the truth that these foreigners are making the best out of AA and really seem to get along with the "locals", while South Africans struggle abroad."

Excuse me? That's absurd, and illogical. 'not only are the people inside SA who are tired of living like they are, racists, but they're also jealous of the fact that other SA people struggle overseas.'

Talk about trying to send mixed messages wrapped up inside an illogical comparison.

funny how indirectly a case is trying to be made to suggest that visitors 'get on with the locals' better - as if that has anything to do with whether or not someone is on the receiving end of violent crime.

As well as trying to suggest that people who aren't experiencing SA as a positive living
experience, are racists.

And then, pointing to often (relatively speaking) rich EU people who can afford to buy
houses, and trying to suggest that because of this, SA people are somehow jealous that
they have to struggle hard overseas and can't buy houses in the EU as easily - is about
as sensible as Bush's simplistic idea that Islamic terrorism comes entirely from jealous
people who 'envy the US its freedoms'.

The only question to ask is:
Amidst all the fairy tale illusions and delusions, are you a domestic prisoner, living
behind a ten or fifteen feet high wall, with more security features than most EU and US government
facilities, or not.

And do you think this is a good example of a decent life, or not.

 

[Pixie22]

A child also gets along better with a cobra than an adult does, until it spits in the childs face that is.
Its called ignorance, and it disappears with experience.

 

[JungleBoy]

It could also be the fact that foreigners did not grow up under Apartheid and therefore have fewer race issues.
Here's something else that's alwys puzzled me. The developed world recruits skills from the developing world, where are their own skills going?