South Africans emmigrating & Europeans immigrating

[marco]

We are emigrating to the UK. I want all my children out of SA asap. We can't go anywhere at night in Cape town. If you don't get a rock through your windscreen or highjacked, you will find your home occupied by burglars.
I know people who have been robbed while they are in bed and awake while they empty the bedroom draws too scared to do anything. That is traumatic.
This can only happen in SA.
Good bye

 

[Slooth]

Odd thread? Posters opinion that the flood gates are open from europe? Is there any source for this?

 

[Nom Chompsky]

I do some of travelling (for work) overseas. At least total 3 months a year if you add it up. True South Africa is well advertised overseas, especially in the UK and Netherlands, France, Belgium etc on TV (E.G. sKY and ITV often have "South African Tourism" announcements before weather etc). and yes there is a lot of appeal for South Africa as a holiday destination. Even I somethimes feel homesick and that's after a few weeks away....BUT....... it only takes 30 seconds after you exit the international departures door at OLIVER TAMBO INTERNATIONAL DUNGPILE ROBBERS NETS AIRPORT that you want to geo back inside and get back on a plan and leave.

Try it. As soon as you leave that doorway you see filth, construction, dubious taxi's, cops sleeping on the job, dirty pavement, vrot JHB air and worse still as you leave the airport you are bombarded with traffic jams, billboards and the moment you get home or to your hotel you had better get inside quick before you get killed (followed from the airport) and hey you may not even have electricity due to loadshedding or substations been blown up and don't even think of going to draw money as the ATM could be a ticking time bomb... SO YOU HOOK UP YOU LAPTOP AND VOILA ..NO WIFI OR LOVELY HOTEL 128KB/S AT $1 A MINUTE

I say it again....SA MAAK MY NAAR

BTech that is the best post I've read . I was laughing for a whole minute it was so funny. I'm going to save it and paste it everytime LancealotSA posts a "positive [bull****] SA" thread.

 

[Skinner]

@ Skinner

You worked in Europe for a couple of years, so you must have made some money, yet you complain about R750 for a Schengen Visa. For Europeans or people that work in Europe, that is Mickey Mouse money.

sometimes even more respected because the locals actually learnt from me.

You have some examples?

Government institutions there are way more efficient than here.

Who said anything about efficiency?
You can be treated like a slimeball and still get efficient service. But you are still a slimeball. Like the rest in the queue.

They might go on package tours to Spain and Greece but that's hardly traveling.

1) Yes they do, almost every 3 months.
2) It is still more travelling than what your average South African does. And completely different cultures and experiences.
3) Many travel far abroad as well, to USA, Far East, NZ, etc.

That's like a person from JHB going to Cape Town for a few days.

That is within the same country.

Most South Africans I know that has traveled has been to the far flung places in the world and backpacked through them on a tight budget. That's much harder than the traveling the average european does.

Well then you have some interesting friends, since Europeans are more likely to travel abroad, since:
1) Average European has greater income per capita than average South African
2) European passports are accepted in many more countries with no visa needed, than South African passport
3) Europeans have more holidays per year (6 weeks average) than your average South African

Have you seen actually what % of americans have a passport.

Topic is mainly about Europeans.

I know people in the UK that haven't even been out of their county never mind London or other european cities.

Europe does not include only the UK.

And most europeans than come and settle here are basically retired or semi retired and live on their government pensions that are allot especially in Rand.

Go to your average middle-to upmarket restaurant in SA. Find some Europeans. Do they look like old farts to you? No, most of them are middle-aged, and open up businesses in SA. Not to mention the hordes of students who come study in SA (of which I won't be surprised come eventually back to live in SA).

And those TV shows you speak of, do you really think they will show any bad things that happen to foreigners here, they most likely only show the success stories.

This instantly proves to me you either did not spend a lot of time in Europe to know about these programs, or you never ever watched TV.
Because if you did, you would know the format of these programs (very "reality" like) and that they show the good and the bad.

And the "good" for those in SA by far overshadow the "bad".

And to your question about people going to Europe to get life experience, they go because it is something different to what they are used to

I.e. life experience.

 

[alloytoo]

You worked in Europe for a couple of years, so you must have made some money, yet you complain about R750 for a Schengen Visa. For Europeans or people that work in Europe, that is Mickey Mouse money.

Commenting on Drone's thriftiness isn't exactly an argument.

You have some examples?

Is this really pertinant? I mean who is really interested if Drone was able to show them how to right click a mouse. Point was, they valued his expertise.

Who said anything about efficiency?
You can be treated like a slimeball and still get efficient service. But you are still a slimeball. Like the rest in the queue.

There's a queue? WOW what a step up.
Who actually cares if the civil servant is equally unpleasant to everyone, so long as he does his job. My time is too valuable to exchange pleasantries with someone who doesn't.

1) Yes they do, almost every 3 months.
2) It is still more travelling than what your average South African does. And completely different cultures and experiences.
3) Many travel far abroad as well, to USA, Far East, NZ, etc.

A package tour is a package tour is a package, some of them travel as far a field as SA.

That is within the same country.

Much like travelling in europe, single currency, no border restrictions for EU passport holders.

Europe does not include only the UK.

Yes, but lets be honest most South African's will seek work in the UK, even if they are lucky enough to hold passports from other EU countries.

Go to your average middle-to upmarket restaurant in SA. Find some Europeans. Do they look like old farts to you? No, most of them are middle-aged, and open up businesses in SA. Not to mention the hordes of students who come study in SA (of which I won't be surprised come eventually back to live in SA).

How does one do that? "Hi can I see your passport?" "are you S'frican or European?"

Actually I know where to find stacks of Europeans.....these funny places called hotels.

And the "good" for those in SA by far overshadow the "bad".

'Reality' like, but clearly not very real.

 

[Skinner]

Commenting on Drone's thriftiness isn't exactly an argument.

Is this really pertinant? I mean who is really interested if Drone was able to show them how to right click a mouse. Point was, they valued his expertise.

Then he was not in a competitive working environment. Lucky.

Who actually cares if the civil servant is equally unpleasant to everyone, so long as he does his job. My time is too valuable to exchange pleasantries with someone who doesn't.

Likewise for them too. And if you are not fast enough getting those papers out that they need, you get shouted at. They do not have time for your South African slowness.

A package tour is a package tour is a package, some of them travel as far a field as SA.

And your point is...?

Much like travelling in europe, single currency, no border restrictions for EU passport holders.

Well UK and rest of Europe do not have the same currency.
Many different languages in Europe. Let's see... as far as I remember, last time I travelled from CPT to JHB, they still spoke English in JHB.
And EU passport holders instantly get Visas upon arrival at most other destinations in the world.

Yes, but lets be honest most South African's will seek work in the UK, even if they are lucky enough to hold passports from other EU countries.

Good point, but the UK isn't exactly heaven either. You are aware that London (after Moscow) is the 2nd most expensive city in the world?

How does one do that? "Hi can I see your passport?" "are you S'frican or European?"

Typically you have little life experience when it comes to having been in Europe or recognising Europeans. Try listening to the languages they speak, if you are good, you may recognise French, Italian, Spanish, German, or even these accents when they speak English. Or even start a friendly conversation with them. Or are you unable to do that?

Actually I know where to find stacks of Europeans.....these funny places called hotels.

You think they stay in their hotels all the time? They have Euros to spend, don't forget.

'Reality' like, but clearly not very real.

Contrary to what you are probably thinking, it is not like the "Survivor" crap you get in US and also shown in SA, it is much higher quality without all the make-up and candy dressing. It follows the lives of Europeans emmigrating to South Africa, and a couple of their first months in SA, as well as other Europeans that have been in SA for several years.

 

[alloytoo]

Then he was not in a competitive working environment. Lucky.

An assumption on your part, without any basis in reality.

Likewise for them too. And if you are not fast enough getting those papers out that they need, you get shouted at. They do not have time for your South African slowness.

Good for them, I unfortunately have had to deal with the slowness of "Home Affairs", shouting didn't seem to help.

And your point is...?

Well UK and rest of Europe do not have the same currency.
Many different languages in Europe. Let's see... as far as I remember, last time I travelled from CPT to JHB, they still spoke English in JHB.
And EU passport holders instantly get Visas upon arrival at most other destinations in the world.

Actually we are nation of 11 official languages, and a number of dialects. The point is package tours to SA do not expose you to them, likewise any businesses servicing package tours make sure that channels of communication are open.

EU passport holders are lucky, all the more reason to get one, especially as the SA passport is becoming seemingly more worthless.

Good point, but the UK isn't exactly heaven either. You are aware that London (after Moscow) is the 2nd most expensive city in the world?

Ah but we were talking about language, not cost of living. My cousins chose England for the language. Luckily most of them don't live in London.

Typically you have little life experience when it comes to having been in Europe or recognising Europeans. Try listening to the languages they speak, if you are good, you may recognise French, Italian, Spanish, German, or even these accents when they speak English. Or even start a friendly conversation with them. Or are you unable to do that?

Why do you now resort to personal insults. So, you're a skulking eavesdropper, that doesn't mean anything you have to say has any merit. (and mostly it doesn't)

You think they stay in their hotels all the time? They have Euros to spend, don't forget.

Well d'uh if they're tourists, then obviously they have Euro's Pounds and Dollars to spend. That was our whole point, they're tourists. (probably on package tours)

Contrary to what you are probably thinking, it is not like the "Survivor" crap you get in US and also shown in SA, it is much higher quality without all the make-up and candy dressing. It follows the lives of Europeans emmigrating to South Africa, and a couple of their first months in SA, as well as other Europeans that have been in SA for several years.

Insulated by money, private medical, private security, and private transport. About as devorced from reality as it comes.

 

[Geriatrix]

I'm sure that someone mentioned this but I would also be very willing and enthusiastic to stay and live in this country if I had the Get Out of Jail Free card to swiftly return to Europe when this country goes a bit more wobly.

And thats why Europeans might like living here. Its cheap, sunny, differant and they don't have to commit to staying here.
They can always go back. With some nice stories for their grand children and friends.

 

[Skinner]

I'm sure that someone mentioned this but I would also be very willing and enthusiastic to stay and live in this country if I had the Get Out of Jail Free card to swiftly return to Europe when this country goes a bit more wobly.

And thats why Europeans might like living here. Its cheap, sunny, differant and they don't have to commit to staying here.
They can always go back. With some nice stories for their grand children and friends.

That's more or less what I thought as well.

It is ironic that South Africans want to flood out of SA, while Europeans like to come live in SA. The above is a good reason. It is also interesting to note that Europeans enjoy living in SA much more than South Africans enjoy living in Europe.

What a sad state of affairs...

 

[Skinner]

An assumption on your part, without any basis in reality.

Basis for my assumption is my experiences in Europe that indicate you are only respected and "admired" for your knowledge and skills if you are in a much higher position than those people; when you are on the same level as them the competition is enormous and no-one cares for anyone else's skills, opinions and experience except if the other person is in charge or in a higher strategic position. That, is typical Europe.

Actually we are nation of 11 official languages, and a number of dialects.

Main generally accepted common language is English. In Europe, it is Spanish in Spain, French in France, etc. etc.

The point is package tours to SA do not expose you to them, likewise any businesses servicing package tours make sure that channels of communication are open.

My point was not Europeans that come for holiday to SA, but rather Europeans that come and live in SA for some years or forever.

EU passport holders are lucky, all the more reason to get one, especially as the SA passport is becoming seemingly more worthless.

Agreed.

Why do you now resort to personal insults. So, you're a skulking eavesdropper, that doesn't mean anything you have to say has any merit. (and mostly it doesn't)

No insult. You asked "How does one do that?" and I answered you how. If you still are not able to recognise Europeans by using the advice I've given, let me know and I can give even more clues.

Well d'uh if they're tourists, then obviously they have Euro's Pounds and Dollars to spend. That was our whole point, they're tourists. (probably on package tours)

Again, my point was not Europeans that come for holiday to SA and stay in some hotels, but rather Europeans that come and live in SA for some years or forever.

Insulated by money, private medical, private security, and private transport. About as devorced from reality as it comes.

True but not as bad as that Survivor crap.
Apart from the TV programs, I know many Europeans that live happily in SA. Do you know any that are unhappy in SA?

 

[Pixie22]

Basis for my assumption is my experiences in Europe that indicate you are only respected and "admired" for your knowledge and skills if you are in a much higher position than those people; when you are on the same level as them the competition is enormous and no-one cares for anyone else's skills, opinions and experience except if the other person is in charge or in a higher strategic position. That, is typical Europe.


Main generally accepted common language is English. In Europe, it is Spanish in Spain, French in France, etc. etc.


My point was not Europeans that come for holiday to SA, but rather Europeans that come and live in SA for some years or forever.


Agreed.


No insult. You asked "How does one do that?" and I answered you how. If you still are not able to recognise Europeans by using the advice I've given, let me know and I can give even more clues.


Again, my point was not Europeans that come for holiday to SA and stay in some hotels, but rather Europeans that come and live in SA for some years or forever.


True but not as bad as that Survivor crap.
Apart from the TV programs, I know many Europeans that live happily in SA. Do you know any that are unhappy in SA?

Unhappy meaning they are so unhappy they are leaving? Um no, by definition they are not here anymore. That said, I don't know one person, European or not, who is happy with this country.. My guess would be the only ones who are, are at the high levels of government selling our country for scraps. If you are happy with the country as it currently is, then you are really not the progressive kind of person this country needs. Low expectations produce low results..

 

[gerhardd]

Just my 2c: I know of quite a few Europeans here in Joburg, who came here to work. They are from all over, France, Netherlands, UK etc. They LOVE it here. Why? Because they get paid huge amounts of money. The guys who come here from Europe were sourced because their skills are not available here in SA.

One of my friends came here from France, he worked here for about three years, earning around $1000 a day. The company paid for his accomodation in a furnished, serviced apartment in one of the Sandton security compounds, gave him a car and driver. After three years, he left, went back to France to enjoy his money. Others also come here in senior management positions. These guys stay in the new Sandton high rises, like the Emperor, Michelangelo Towers etc. Everything is paid for, not a worry.

If I were European, I wouldn't think twice about grabbing an opportunity like that. Work in SA for a few years, go back to Europe to enjoy the spoils...

 

[alloytoo]

Basis for my assumption is my experiences in Europe that indicate you are only respected and "admired" for your knowledge and skills if you are in a much higher position than those people; when you are on the same level as them the competition is enormous and no-one cares for anyone else's skills, opinions and experience except if the other person is in charge or in a higher strategic position. That, is typical Europe.

Drone might beg to differ, that is however his place. I however view your argument from authority with much skeptism.


Main generally accepted common language is English. In Europe, it is Spanish in Spain, French in France, etc. etc.

Veritable babel it seems. Luckily English is the most common second language in the world.

My point was not Europeans that come for holiday to SA, but rather Europeans that come and live in SA for some years or forever.

Indeed, I know of many persons of European descent looking to leave, forever is not as long as it sounds.


Agreed.

No insult. You asked "How does one do that?" and I answered you how. If you still are not able to recognise Europeans by using the advice I've given, let me know and I can give even more clues.

Alas I'm too busy working to hang out in trendy bristro's with tourists.

Again, my point was not Europeans that come for holiday to SA and stay in some hotels, but rather Europeans that come and live in SA for some years or forever.

Again, Forever is not as long as it seems.

I know many Europeans that live happily in SA. Do you know any that are unhappy in SA?

Alas, they are returned, to Portugal, to Greece, to England and Ireland, though of course some of my European cousins have settled in Oz.

Then there's the Chum who worked 7 days a week in SA to make ends meet. In New Zealand he fishes on the weekend, and now enjoys overseas holidays.

 

[alloytoo]

Just my 2c: I know of quite a few Europeans here in Joburg, who came here to work. They are from all over, France, Netherlands, UK etc. They LOVE it here. Why? Because they get paid huge amounts of money. The guys who come here from Europe were sourced because their skills are not available here in SA.

One of my friends came here from France, he worked here for about three years, earning around $1000 a day. The company paid for his accomodation in a furnished, serviced apartment in one of the Sandton security compounds, gave him a car and driver. After three years, he left, went back to France to enjoy his money. Others also come here in senior management positions. These guys stay in the new Sandton high rises, like the Emperor, Michelangelo Towers etc. Everything is paid for, not a worry.

If I were European, I wouldn't think twice about grabbing an opportunity like that. Work in SA for a few years, go back to Europe to enjoy the spoils...

What's not to love about SA under those circumstances?

 

[noxibox]

It means they know how to handle large amounts of money. Which is more than I can say for most South Africans, who live in debt.

And people in other coutries do not?

The European workplace environment and tough product & service competition is warzone enough. Come live and work in a couple of European countries for a few years and you will experience it first-hand. Sink or swim. SA working environments are like heaven in comparison.

You like to say that, but give us some specific examples.

 

[Drone 42]

@ Skinner

From all your post I sometimes wonder how in touch with reality are you. Your comments on other peoples comments are most of the time lame and have no basis. It seems you just need to post something back no matter how stupid it is. You even check my old posts about a visa I needed to get, really weird. In that post if you read it again I just said R750 is allot because you can go to others countries for free or cheaper or without the hassle of getting a visa. And that Europeans can come here also without the need for a visa that I felt was a bit unfair. Thanks to alloytoo for responding to the lame comments. He basically said everything I wanted to.

Just wondering what profession you are in. Because like I said I was treated no different than any other employee and the competitiveness in all the positions I had was basically the same as here. Here with all the affirmative action you also need to be competitive and prove yourself otherwise you will get nowhere. And are you totally kidding yourself with the reality shows, no reality show is based on reality. These shows get edited and they show you what they want to. Off coarse they always show drama as well, it makes for good TV. I still just wonder where these hordes of students and Europeans are that you speak of. I never see or meet them. And I bet you for every 500 South africans leaving 1 european comes here. There are no hordes. Do you know what that word means.

Please try and base tour comments or more facts and less assumptions. Maybe you are just a bit disolutioned with how you got treated in Europe. Lets be honest it is not always great over there and no land of milk and honey but it is not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. That's my whole point. Likewise it is not always bad over here, you just have to adapt to your surroundings and it is mostly up to you and your attitude how things turn out. You also said no european will help you withs things, I got helped lots of times, maybe it has something to do with charisma.

 

[noxibox]

Basis for my assumption is my experiences in Europe

Other people tell a different story, so who is right? Have you worked for the real European companies and they not?

 

[Drone 42]

Basis for my assumption is my experiences in Europe

So only your experience is valid and everybody else here that have experience in Europe are making stuff up. Seems like you know everything and nobody can tell you any different. Maybe it's exactly that attitude that made people treat you the way they did.

And all europeans are not the same just like all South Africans are not the same. So how can everybody treat you the same. In one sentence you say just how a diverse place europe is with different languages and cultures but then you say they all treat you like you are inferior and they don't want to show you anything. Really weird to make assumptions like that. You know what they say about assumptions.

 

[alloytoo]

Other people tell a different story, so who is right? Have you worked for the real European companies and they not?

As Drone pointed out, his attitude probably defined his experience.

ATA:

I've heard of two varying experiences of the same country.

The first chap immigrated with NZ$2000 in his pocket and nine boxes, the second took a large container and substantial equity.

The first chap said people were eager to help him, and overall he had a pleasant experience. The second said people seemed to be out to get him.

Biggest difference between the two was attitude, that I could see for myself.

 

[Skinner]

Unhappy meaning they are so unhappy they are leaving? Um no, by definition they are not here anymore. That said, I don't know one person, European or not, who is happy with this country..

Then explain why there are so many Europeans in South Africa?
Why would they be staying there if they were unhappy? Because (as others pointed out too) they could instantly return to Europe, no problemo, if they were unhappy.

Are you aware that more than 20,000 Germans live in Somerset West?
Pretoria also has a large German community. For sure Cape Town also has many Europeans. Then not to mention all the international students. Heck, I wonder why they would come to study here if they would not be happy with SA.