The Brexit Thread

Dave

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Jo Johnson has just published an open letter explaining his resignation.

“Brexit has divided the country. It has divided political parties. And it has divided families too. Although I voted remain, I have desperately wanted the government, in which I have been proud to serve, to make a success of Brexit: to reunite our country, our party and, yes, my family too.

“At times, I believed this was possible. That’s why I voted to start the Article 50 process and for two years have backed the prime minister in her efforts to secure the best deal for the country. But it has become increasingly clear to me that the withdrawal agreement, which is being finalised in Brussels and Whitehall even as I write, will be a terrible mistake.

“Indeed, the choice being presented to the British people is no choice at all. The first option is the one the government is proposing: an agreement that will leave our country economically weakened, with no say in the EU rules it must follow and years of uncertainty for business.

“The second option is a no-deal Brexit that I know as a transport minister will inflict untold damage on our nation. To present the nation with a choice between two deeply unattractive outcomes, vassalage and chaos, is a failure of British statecraft on a scale unseen since the Suez crisis. My constituents in Orpington deserve better than this from their government.

“What is now being proposed won’t be anything like what was promised two years ago.

“Hopes for ‘the easiest trade deal in history’ have proved to be delusions. Contrary to promises, there is in fact no deal at all on our future trading relationship with the EU which the government can present to the country. Still less anything that offers the “exact same benefits” as the single market, as David Davis promised, or the “precise guarantees of frictionless trade” that the prime minister assured us would be available.

“All that is now being finalised is the agreement to pay the EU tens of billions of pounds. All that may be on offer on trade is the potential for an agreement to stay in a temporary customs arrangement while we discuss the possibility of an EU trade deal that all experience shows will take many years to negotiate.

“Even if we eventually secure a customs arrangement for trade in goods, it will be bad news for the service sector – for firms in finance, in IT, in communications and digital technology. Maintaining access to EU markets for goods is important, but we are fundamentally a services economy. Many in Orpington, for example, are among the two million Britons employed in financial services, commuting into the centre of London to jobs of all kinds in the City.

“Countries across the world go to great lengths to attract financial and professional services jobs from our shores. An agreement that sharply reduces access to EU markets for financial services – or leaves us vulnerable to regulatory change over which we will have no influence – will hurt my constituents and damage one of our most successful sectors.

“While we wait to negotiate trading terms, the rules of the game will be set solely by the EU. Britain will lose its seat at the table and its ability to amend or vote down rules it opposes. Instead of Britain “taking back control”, we will cede control to other European countries. This democratic deficit inherent in the prime minister’s proposal is a travesty of Brexit.

“When we were told Brexit meant taking back powers for parliament, no one told my constituents this meant the French parliament and the German parliament, not our own. In these circumstances, we must ask what we are achieving. William Hague once described the goal of Conservative policy as being “in Europe, but not run by Europe”. The government’s proposals will see us out of Europe, yet run by Europe, bound by rules which we will have lost a hand in shaping.

“Worse still, there is no real clarity about how this situation will ever end. The proposed withdrawal agreement parks many of the biggest issues about our future relationship with Europe into a boundless transitionary period. This is a con on the British people: there is no evidence that the kind of Brexit that we’ve failed to negotiate while we are still members can be magically agreed once the UK has lost its seat at the table. The leverage we have as a full member of the EU will have gone. We will be in a far worse negotiating position than we are today. And we will have still failed to resolve the fundamental questions that are ramping up uncertainties for businesses and stopping them investing for the future.

“My brother Boris, who led the leave campaign, is as unhappy with the government’s proposals as I am. Indeed he recently observed that the proposed arrangements were “substantially worse than staying in the EU”. On that he is unquestionably right. If these negotiations have achieved little else, they have at least united us in fraternal dismay.

“The argument that the government will present for the withdrawal agreement ‘deal’ is not that it is better for Britain than our current membership. The prime minister knows that she cannot honestly make the claim that the deal is an improvement on Britain’s current arrangements with the EU and, to her credit, refuses to do so. The only case she can try to make is that it is better than the alternative of leaving the EU with no deal at all.

“Certainly, I know from my own work at the Department of Transport the potential chaos that will follow a no-deal Brexit. It will cause disruption, delay and deep damage to our economy. There are real questions about how we will be able to guarantee access to fresh food and medicine if the crucial Dover-Calais trade route is clogged up. The government may have to take control of prioritising which lorries and which goods are allowed in and out of the country, an extraordinary and surely unworkable intervention for a government in an advanced capitalist economy.

“The prospect of Kent becoming the Lorry Park of England is very real in a no-deal scenario. Orpington residents bordering Kent face disruption from plans to use the nearby M26, connecting the M25 to the M20, as an additional queueing area for heavy goods vehicles backed up all the way from the channel ports. This prospect alone would be a resigning matter for me as a constituency MP, but it is just a facet of a far greater problem facing the nation.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...t-boris-final-say-eu-referendum-a8627041.html
 

OrbitalDawn

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May calls emergency cabinet meeting to sign off final Brexit deal with Brussels

Ministers have been summoned to an emergency cabinet meeting on Wednesday afternoon, where they will be asked to sign off Theresa May’s final Brexit deal with Brussels.

The critical meeting will review the final text of the withdrawal agreement, which was reached on Tuesday by British and European Union negotiators as the first step in the long process of ratifying the UK’s withdrawal from the EU.

Ministers were being summoned to No 10 individually for briefings on the latest developments from the early evening. One source said they would be allowed to see the key papers on Tuesday evening but not take them home.

“Cabinet will meet at 2pm tomorrow to consider the draft agreement the negotiating teams have reached in Brussels, and to decide on next steps,” a No 10 spokesman confirmed. “Cabinet ministers have been invited to read documentation ahead of that meeting.”

Hard Brexiters swiftly reacted negatively to the prospective deal – and indicated they intended to vote against it if it came to parliament. Jacob Rees-Mogg, the chairman of the European Research Group said: “I hope cabinet will block it, or if not, parliament will block it.”
 

noxibox

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Asked by German magazine Der Spiegel if he would stop Brexit if he could, Mr Corbyn said: "We can't stop it. The referendum took place. Article 50 has been triggered.
That doesn't appear to be true. While it doesn't include any specific provision for revoking, there is nothing specific that prohibits it either.

Prime Minister Theresa May has repeatedly ruled out a public vote on the final Brexit deal, saying in September that "to ask the question all over again would be a gross betrayal of our democracy - and a betrayal of trust".
How is allowing people to reconsider two years later a betrayal of trust or democracy?
 
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That doesn't appear to be true. While it doesn't include any specific provision for revoking, there is nothing specific that prohibits it either.


How is allowing people to reconsider two years later a betrayal of trust or democracy?
The will of the people has spoken. They need to deal with it. Simple as that. You can't take two years to strike a deal and then ask: "Are you sure?"
 

Ancalagon

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That doesn't appear to be true. While it doesn't include any specific provision for revoking, there is nothing specific that prohibits it either.


How is allowing people to reconsider two years later a betrayal of trust or democracy?
Because people will moan and complain.

Also, it would look like they are just asking the same question over and over again until they get an answer they like.

That being said, I don't think that the voting public was fully informed of what a disaster Brexit could be until recently. I think if they did have a new vote, the results would be very different.
 

Ancalagon

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DUP (wish they weren't just a party in NI...definitely more conservative than some of the pseudo-conservative MPs e..g Theresa May) - the party propping up May's government - have said they will vote AGAINST the deal. 10 votes lost! Woop woop.

So what will happen then?

May's own party will vote against the deal, and she will either resign or face a vote of no confidence. If I remember correctly, that will trigger an election. The Tories will probably win again, but with a different leader.

Then I guess the deal that ultimately happens depends on who takes over the Tories. I personally hope it would be someone who would want a second referendum.
 
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Dunno what will happen - I think May is trying to get it through with Labour votes, but I personally don't see that happening -- why would Labour want to help the Tories? There will be some Labour rebels who will vote for the deal, but it certainly won't be enough.

Already 51 Conservative MPs have pledged to vote down the deal, and this excludes people Tory Remainers who might vote it down as well. Just adding 51 + 10 DUP MPs, that's 61 votes down, excluding the opposition parties (Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, other weirdo parties).

I guess she'd have to go if her deal was voted down, although she has this irritating habit of seemingly staying on far longer than many individuals expect.
 
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So what will happen then?

May's own party will vote against the deal, and she will either resign or face a vote of no confidence. If I remember correctly, that will trigger an election. The Tories will probably win again, but with a different leader.

Then I guess the deal that ultimately happens depends on who takes over the Tories. I personally hope it would be someone who would want a second referendum.
You seem to not get it. They are voting against May's proposed soft Brexit. They want hard exist simple as that. If may doesn't do it, the next leader will
 

Ancalagon

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You seem to not get it. They are voting against May's proposed soft Brexit. They want hard exist simple as that. If may doesn't do it, the next leader will
Depends on who the next leader is. Some of the leaders want a hard brexit, some of them want another referendum.
 

Cray

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You seem to not get it. They are voting against May's proposed soft Brexit. They want hard exist simple as that. If may doesn't do it, the next leader will
There are plenty of remainers in the Tory party, and these are MP's from areas that voted remain - from what I can see the Tories are pretty much split on the issue.
 
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Depends on who the next leader is. Some of the leaders want a hard brexit, some of them want another referendum.
This will never happen. It makes the first referendum null and void, and sets a very scary precedent. "Don't worry about this referendum, we'll have another few just to make double sure" will apply to all future referendums then. Makes zero sense.

The Stay people should start accepting that. The results are in. Live with it.
 

Cray

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This will never happen. It makes the first referendum null and void, and sets a very scary precedent. "Don't worry about this referendum, we'll have another few just to make double sure" will apply to all future referendums then. Makes zero sense.

The Stay people should start accepting that. The results are in. Live with it.
The initial question of the referendum was far too simplistic though, an acceptance of that should inform a second referendum on what leave actually means, it's shouldn't just be a hard Brexit because that what certain people in government want.
 

Temujin

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This will never happen. It makes the first referendum null and void, and sets a very scary precedent. "Don't worry about this referendum, we'll have another few just to make double sure" will apply to all future referendums then. Makes zero sense.

The Stay people should start accepting that. The results are in. Live with it.
^this... but they want their neverendums until they get their way
 

Ancalagon

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This will never happen. It makes the first referendum null and void, and sets a very scary precedent. "Don't worry about this referendum, we'll have another few just to make double sure" will apply to all future referendums then. Makes zero sense.

The Stay people should start accepting that. The results are in. Live with it.
Didn't they have a referendum on whether to join the EU in the 1970's? So, the recent referendum makes that one null and void too.
 

ToxicBunny

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Didn't they have a referendum on whether to join the EU in the 1970's? So, the recent referendum makes that one null and void too.
They did...

But what people are obviously missing, is that now more of the reality has been revealed a new referendum would probably be a good thing to see how the citizens feel with more accurate information rather than the lies being peddled from both sides.
 
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