The Islamic State Thread

Unhappy438 said:
Orbital is right, dishonest.
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Or maybe you interpreted what I said wrongfully, then assigned the most uncharitable reading to it and then went ahead. That is not dishonest and perfectly acceptable.

With apologies to Pitbull who is perfectly correct.
 
Garyvdh said:
Ja, but the current main flash point of division, Sunnis versus Shiites is a religious division that long predates that... and cuts across all geographic borders.
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But the US handling of it is what is making it worse. This is like their support for the Mujahedeen during the Soviet Occupation. Supply them with Stingers and other arms. But then pull out when it came to rebuilding.

These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we ****ed up the end game. - Charlie Wilson on Afghanistan
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Garyvdh said:
Ja, but the current main flash point of division, Sunnis versus Shiites is a religious division that long predates that... and cuts across all geographic borders.
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I dont deny the religious diffs predates the division, but prior to the division the Ottoman Empire did manage to survive for a fairly long while even due to those differences.
Although granted not without a certain amount of internal turmoil from time to time.
The carving up of the Middle East just created even further divisions and issues above and beyond the pre-existing ones.
 
Nanfeishen said:
I dont deny the religious diffs predates the division, but prior to the division the Ottoman Empire did manage to survive for a fairly long while even due to those differences.
Although granted not without a certain amount of internal turmoil from time to time.
The carving up of the Middle East just created even further divisions and issues above and beyond the pre-existing ones.
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Arguing history is like arguing semantics. It still does not answer the big question. How to stop this. Put a fence around it and wait 200 years? Bomb it back to the stone-age, then bomb it some more and then go and build it up in your image? - worked with Germany and Japan after WW2. Its either that or wait for a radical to do something like blow up the new Pope - a guy I actually like. And then we have massive issues.

Case and point - http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/624173-Saudi-Man-destroys-300-year-old-statues-in-Japan
 
£256m now in terrorist hands. This is really, really bad.
 
Space_Chief said:
Or maybe you interpreted what I said wrongfully, then assigned the most uncharitable reading to it and then went ahead. That is not dishonest and perfectly acceptable.
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Is that why i first asked you to elaborate because what you said didn't make perfect sense to me? You then went on about how im gullible and naive, which is weird because i actually agreed with a lot of what you had to say just not the specific way you initially described it.

Its clear from this first post that marine is referencing direct funding, not some kind of "funding" that mistakenly ends up in ISIS hands.

marine1 said:
Would not surprise me is the Obam bam administration is funding the other side too. Remember its all about the oil and Obama has been shown to be a complete liar.
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So that's why when you used the word funding (in reply to all this), i wasn't entirely sure what you meant. Maybe next time just clarify without the snarky remarks, its usually more conducive to a better discussion.

I wont reply to this matter again...
 
And the same carving up of Africa, leads us to the reason why Africa is doomed to be a failure until every tribe has it's own country....
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Which continent wasn't carved up at some time in history and won't be so again.

I don't see Africa being any different.
 
Unhappy438 said:
Is that why i first asked you to elaborate because what you said didn't make perfect sense to me? You then went on about how im gullible and naive, which is weird because i actually agreed with a lot of what you had to say just not the specific way you initially described it.
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Its clear from this first post that marine is referencing direct funding, not some kind of "funding" that mistakenly ends up in ISIS hands.
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No it's not. Because then I'd have said directly funded. It was just you being uncharitable and firing first without asking for clarification. Such as maybe asking, "Do you mean the CIA is wiring money to the ISIS leadership?"

Anyway, it's quite obvious that the West is clueless about what's going on over there. To suggest they can give supplies to people who are less extreme to combat more extreme elements and not have these be used by the more extreme elements is silly. Rather get out and stop interfering.

Here's another example of West's incompetence:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/06/12/jihadist_gains_in_iraq_blindside_american_spies

The speed and ease with which well-armed and highly trained ISIS fighters took over Mosul, Iraq's second-largest city, and Tikrit, the birthplace of former Iraqi ruler Saddam Hussein, have raised significant doubts about the ability of American intelligence agencies to know when ISIS might strike next, a troubling sign as the Islamist group advances steadily closer to Baghdad. And it harkened back to another recent intelligence miscue, in February, when U.S. spy agencies failed to predict the Russian invasion of Crimea. Both events are likely to raise questions about whether the tens of billions of dollars spent every year on monitoring the world's hot spots is paying off -- and what else the spies might be missing.
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daveza said:
Which continent wasn't carved up at some time in history and won't be so again.

I don't see Africa being any different.
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The difference is that the people who carved up Europe and possibly much of Asia did it themselves and self segregated into more or less ethnically homogenous groups each on their own territory. Where this was enforced by the stronger party say in Spain with the Basques, or Norther Ireland with the colonisation of Ireland by English settlers we have conflict, although not as bad as in ME or Africa.

Yugoslavia is another excellent example where people were forced to live together, as was the USSR.
 
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Space_Chief said:
No it's not. Because then I'd have said directly funded. It was just you being uncharitable and firing first without asking for clarification. Such as maybe asking, "Do you mean the CIA is wiring money to the ISIS leadership?"

Anyway, it's quite obvious that the West is clueless about what's going on over there. To suggest they can give supplies to people who are less extreme to combat more extreme elements and not have these be used by the more extreme elements is silly. Rather get out and stop interfering.

Here's another example of West's incompetence:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/06/12/jihadist_gains_in_iraq_blindside_american_spies
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The USA have always been wary, of the kind of support they needed to give the "rebels" in Syria. That issue has been covered yonks ago in the Syrian Conflict thread.

As mentioned by others, one needs to do something, so having considered the variables, they opted for limited support. When weapons or finances fall into the hands of unintended players, it is not the fault of those that gave the limited support.

As even your attempt to show the "West's incompetence" points out.

"This has never been about whether we thought ISIS had the capability to launch attacks. It's always been, do the Iraqis have the capability to defend their country?" one official said.

On that score, the U.S. assessment was more on the mark. Obama administration officials have hesitated to provide Iraqi military forces with advanced weapons -- including fighter jets and attack helicopters -- because they've never shown an aptitude for using them or sufficient resolve to fight their enemies, the officials said.

The Obama administration had also long feared that Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, a Shiite with clear antipathy towards the country's Sunni population, would use the armaments against his own people.
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The people giving their lives every day, so that we can type out our venom against them in peace, do take it seriously and do try to make the best choices, in given circumstances.
 
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Space_Chief said:
Will ISIS also seize Baghdad?
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/views/news/middle-east/2014/06/11/Will-ISIS-also-seize-Baghdad-.html
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Baghdad is heavily defended. AFAIK specialist anti-terrorist soldiers have infiltrated Baghdad already and consolidating Sunni support, the idea is to garner a spy network. It's not only Shiites but Sunni's are at the end of the barrel too. They have know this for a long time so the idea is to capitalize on that. You cannot fight unconventional wars with conventional means.

Win hearts and minds, you win the war.
 
Lightscribe said:
The USA have always been wary, of the kind of support they needed to give the "rebels" in Syria. That issue has been covered yonks ago in the Syrian Conflict thread.

As mentioned by others, one needs to do something, so having considered the variables, they opted for limited support. When weapons or finances fall into the hands of unintended players, it is not the fault of those that gave the limited support.
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When you're clueless what's happening on the ground and have no control over what happens to support you give, it is irresponsible to provide such aid. It is of course your fault. This is of course not the first time Western aid and interference have worsened problems.

As mentioned by others, one needs to do something,
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Bzzzt! Wrong. One perhaps should not do anything. The problem in Syria was internal. There was no need to interfere.

As even your attempt to show the "West's incompetence" points out.
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OMW, someone did a basic risk assessment. Amazing.

BTW a most successful attempt.

The people giving their lives every day, so that we can type out our venom against them in peace, do take it seriously and do try to make the best choices, in given circumstances.
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???

What people are giving their lives?

Are you suggesting the wars in Iraq, in Syria and Libya were necessary to prevent Saddam Hussein and Assad from invading South Africa? USA? Europe? China?
 
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Techne said:
The POTUS has said a lot of things that turned out to be lies (remember lie of the year last year?). And Bush before him? Also a bad liar. They are neither the first nor the last politicians to show disdain for the truth. People shouldn't be so gullible and believe or trust politicians.
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Hungry and desperate people usually do. Hitler himself slammed that last nail in.
 
Compton_effect said:
It still does not answer the big question. How to stop this.
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Glass the whole area with clean nukes. Iran, Iraq and Syria at least, although I don't see any good reason why Afghanistan and Pakistan shouldn't be included. Think of it as chemotherapy for the planet.

It's a drastic step, but really the USA needs to stop pretending that they give a **** about these ****hole countries and take serious action that tells the world that they're tired of playing games.
 
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