The Islamic State Thread

Saddam was scum but the USA made him and was happy to use him while he danced to their tune.

The Bushes must feel very satisfied when they look at Iraq and know that the disaster is entirely their own doing as well as being based on a lie to start with. The Bushes, just like the Taliban and other terrorist groups, measure their piety in terms of dead bodies.

Iraq War II should not have occurred. Heck War I would not have occurred if the US told their "man" he was not allowed to take Kuwait. But seriously, why was the US even involved there.

Maybe Kuwait signed a mutual assurance treaty with US. Did they?

Sometimes a guy is bad, but it's better to leave him alone or at least leave his party and apparatus there. Demading his removal while allowing the Baath Party to remain may have avoided the mess we see there. That mess will continue.
 
You're entitled to your opinion. I'll stick to mine.

Yes, I agree, the USA needs to stick to directing the wars in the Middle East, from a distance, whilst fixing their budget and protecting their own people in the US...and elsewhere...

No. The US needs to get out and only be responsible for policing their own territory. In addition they can work with partners who want to have them in mutual defence pacts, such as in NATO, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan.

Also please refrain from saying protecting financial and political interests in the middle east of some countries there, is making the world safer and more peaceful for us down here. That's false.
 
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With you on that Mila.

Millions more died in across Europe and then USSR and China. There are still people there.

Look at the wars in the past in East Asia. In some wars, tens of millions of people perished.

Actually many people don't know what war is. Especially Westerners. People in SA are clueless about war. As are most Anglophone people. Exceptions being soldiers, but even soldiers don't see their families executed, home towns ravaged, national monuments destroyed, fellow countrymen enslaved, and so on. There are still tens of millions of people for whom this is a reality now or from past experience.
 
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Still amazing that there are people left in that part of the world.

Not sure I understand that sentiment. The population of 'that part of the world' grows at an alarming rate. Like the rest of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Middle_East

Code:
Population growth [1]
#		1990	2008	2010	1990-2008	Growth %
Million	1990-08	1990-10
1	Bahrain	0.49	0.77	1.26	0.3	56%	[B]157[/B]%
2	Cyprus	0.58	0.80	0.80	0.2	38%	38%
3	Egypt	57.79	81.53	81.12	23.7	41%	40%
4	Iran	54.40	71.96	73.97	17.6	32%	36%
5	Iraq	18.14	28.22	32.32	10.1	56%	[B]78%[/B]
6	Israel	4.68	7.31	7.62	2.6	56%	[B]63%[/B]
7	Jordan	3.17	5.91	6.05	2.7	86%	[B]91%[/B]
8	Kuwait	2.13	2.73	2.74	0.6	28%	29%
9	Lebanon	2.97	4.14	4.23	1.2	39%	42%
10	Oman	1.84	2.79	2.78	0.9	51%	51%
11	Palestine	1.90	3.91	help	2.0	[B]106%[/B]	
12	Qatar	0.47	1.28	1.76	0.8	174%	[B]274%[/B]
13	Saudi Arabia	16.38	24.65	27.45	8.3	50%	68%
14	Syria	12.72	21.23	20.45	8.5	67%	[B]61%[/B]
15	Turkey	55.12	71.08	72.85	16.0	29%	32%
16	UAE	1.87	4.37	7.51	2.5	134%	[B]302%[/B]
17	Yemen	12.31	23.05	24.05	10.7	87%	[B]95%[/B]
TOTAL	246.95	355.70		108.7	44%	
x	Middle East	131.6	198.5	212.19	66.9	51 %	61%
x	World	5,265.2	6,687.9	6,825	1,422.7	27 %	30%
 
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Iraq War II should not have occurred. Heck War I would not have occurred if the US told their "man" he was not allowed to take Kuwait. But seriously, why was the US even involved there.

Maybe Kuwait signed a mutual assurance treaty with US. Did they?

Sometimes a guy is bad, but it's better to leave him alone or at least leave his party and apparatus there. Demading his removal while allowing the Baath Party to remain may have avoided the mess we see there. That mess will continue.

Bad man make oil stop flowing.
Us make oil flow again.
 
Iraqi Shiite Cleric Issues Call to Arms

BAGHDAD — The specter of sectarian war and partition of Iraq grew on Friday as the country’s top Shiite cleric implored his followers to take up arms against an insurgent army of marauding Sunni extremist militants who have captured broad stretches of northern territory this week in a sweep toward Baghdad.

The exhortation by the cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, came as President Obama told the Iraqis they need to resolve the crisis themselves and vowed not to redeploy United States forces in Iraq, a country where nearly 4,500 American soldiers lost their lives and the United States spent more than $1 trillion in an eight-year war that Mr. Obama said was history when the last troops left in 2011.

While Mr. Obama said he would offer some help, it would not include troops, and he asserted that “we’re not going to allow ourselves to be dragged back into a situation in which, while we’re there, we’re keeping a lid on things.”

Heeding the call to arms by Ayatollah Sistani, Shiite volunteers rushed to the front lines, reinforcing defenses of the holy city of Samarra 70 miles north of Baghdad, and helping thwart attacks by Sunni fighters of the radical Islamic State of Iraq and Syria in some smaller cities to the east. The confrontations suggested that Shiites and Sunnis would once again engage in open conflict for control of Iraq, as they did during the height of the American-led occupation that ousted Saddam Hussein.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/14/world/middleeast/iraq.html
 
No. The US needs to get out and only be responsible for policing their own territory. In addition they can work with partners who want to have them in mutual defence pacts, such as in NATO, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan.

Also please refrain from saying protecting financial and political interests in the middle east of some countries there, is making the world safer and more peaceful for us down here. That's false.

Ignoring the world is not the answer.

First, if America has learned anything about the Middle East, it is that we cannot easily insulate ourselves from its pathologies. This is not a region where the Las Vegas rules apply: what takes place in the Middle East does not stay in the Middle East. The 9/11 attacks demonstrated that.

Second, even when we achieve energy independence, which should be our national aim, we have to remember that there is one pool of oil and natural gas for the world and the price will be determined internationally by what is available for all global consumers. Cut off the oil from the region or the 20 percent of the world’s daily supply that passes through the Strait of Hormuz, and the price of oil will spike dramatically.

Third, our allies will remain dependent on energy supplies from the region for the foreseeable future, and our traditional interest of not having a hostile power gain leverage over the area’s flow of oil and gas will not materially change.

Fourth, we have a longstanding commitment to Israeli security, and the emerging trends in the region—in terms of both Islamist hostility and the proliferation of missiles—are making the threat environment facing Israel more ominous than it has been since the founding of the state.

And, fifth, proliferation of missiles is bad enough; were there to be a nuclear-armed Middle East, the prospect of a nuclear war in this region would threaten global stability and well-being—and we have a huge stake in preventing that.

For all these reasons, we cannot walk away or disengage from the Middle East.

...

That longer-term vision of protecting our near-term priorities while making it possible for pluralism and secular, liberal forces to eventually emerge also has implications for how we deal with our traditional Arab friends, the conservative monarchies. At present, the monarchies, particularly the oil monarchies, are anxious about what they perceive as the administration’s impulse to accommodate the Islamists.

It is pointless to argue that the perception is unfair; there is no denying that it exists. As such, it is important for the administration to set the record straight. It should be clear that we see the Islamists neither as our natural friends nor as the wave of the future.

That said, where leaders like Egyptian president Muhammad Morsi have been legitimately elected, we will deal and be prepared to work with them. But their behavior will guide the relationship and what is possible in it. Indeed, our readiness to work with them—and even provide and mobilize assistance and investment for them—will depend on their active opposition to terror; on their fulfilling their international obligations, including those regarding peace with Israel; and on their respecting minority rights and the political right of their domestic opposition to function peacefully.

Even as the administration spells out these principles in public and private, it needs to be very clear with the Arab monarchies that we will continue to help secure them from external threats. At the same time, the administration will do our Arab friends no favors if it pretends that they are immune to the broader awakening in the region.

Increasingly, publics in the region seek to be treated as citizens with rights rather than as subjects with neither a voice nor the right to demand accountability. There is no easy blueprint for the transition, and the fear of instability—and voids filled by the Islamists—will temper how rapidly change can come.

...

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/uploads/Documents/pubs/StrategicReport12.pdf
 
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Shiite?

For a sec I thought you where saying **** :D
 
US sends carrier group for Iraq crisis as Iran offers co-operation

THE US had ordered an aircraft carrier, USS George HW Bush, into the Gulf in response to the crisis in Iraq, the Pentagon said last night.

“The order will provide the commander-in-chief additional flexibility should military options be required to protect American lives, citizens and interests in Iraq,” Rear Admiral John Kirby, the Pentagon spokesman, said.

Admiral Kirby said the carrier, which is named after the US president, now 90, who led the coalition in the Gulf War to drive Saddam Hussein’s forces out of Kuwait, would be accompanied by a guided-missile cruiser and a guided-missile destroyer.

Shia Iran offered last night to consider working with long-time foe Washington if it takes the lead in helping repel Sunni Arab militants who have seized a swath of northern Iraq.

The offer came as Iraqi commanders said soldiers had recaptured two towns north of Baghdad as they prepared a fightback, bolstered by thousands of Shia volunteers who answered a call to arms by top cleric Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.


full article:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...fers-cooperation/story-e6frg6so-1226954768173
 
Ignoring the world is not the answer.

It is pretty much the answer. It's nice to quote people who have interests in interfering there issuing post hoc justifications.

USA, like everyone else, should have a non-interventionist foreign policy. Only intervention should be authorised by Congress and should follow all Constitutional procedures. It should also be on behalf of legitimate parties and can be preceeded by way of mutual protection/assistance pacts which will be well known to all. Treaties such as between Taiwan and USA are good examples. Everyone knows where everyone stands.
 
Bad man make oil stop flowing.
Us make oil flow again.

I'm pretty sure Hussein would have continued selling that oil.

BTW wasn't Kuwait and Iraq all part of one country before the Whites divided it up?
 
SENIOR SHIITE CLERIC SAYS 8 GUARDS KILLED IN IRAQ CONVOY ATTACK

Gunmen attacked the convoy of the deputy head of Iraq's Shiite religious endowment on Saturday, killing eight of his guards, the senior cleric said.

Sheikh Sami al-Massudi said his convoy was ambushed near Ishaqi, a town north of Baghdad that was retaken from militants on Saturday, sparking hours-long clashes in which 10 guards were also wounded.


Source : Sapa-AFP /mm
Date : 14 Jun 2014 20:37
 
I'm pretty sure Hussein would have continued selling that oil.
Um, his Republican guard set all the oil fields on fire. How old were you when that happened?
BTW wasn't Kuwait and Iraq all part of one country before the Whites divided it up?
No. The history of Kuwait was go way back further than that.
 
It is pretty much the answer. It's nice to quote people who have interests in interfering there issuing post hoc justifications.

USA, like everyone else, should have a non-interventionist foreign policy. Only intervention should be authorised by Congress and should follow all Constitutional procedures. It should also be on behalf of legitimate parties and can be preceeded by way of mutual protection/assistance pacts which will be well known to all. Treaties such as between Taiwan and USA are good examples. Everyone knows where everyone stands.

What's your take on Zim? You sound like Mbeki.
 
IRAQI TROOPS DIG IN, BOLSTERING BAGHDAD'S DEFENCES

Soldiers armed with shovels are digging in just 25 kilometres (15 miles) north of Baghdad as others man new checkpoints, bolstering the Iraqi capital's defences against a militant assault.

A major militant offensive launched on Monday, spearheaded by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) group but also involving supporters of executed dictator Saddam Hussein, has overrun a large chunk of northern and north-central Iraq.

The advance swept to within less than 100 kilometres (60 miles) of the capital, raising fears among residents that the city itself would be next, though militants have since been pushed back by security forces in areas farther north, making an assault on Baghdad appear less likely.

ISIL spokesman Abu Mohammed al-Adnani has vowed its fighters would press on to Baghdad and Karbala, a city southwest of the capital that is considered one of the holiest sites in Shiite Islam.

Top Shiite cleric Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani on Friday urged Iraqis to take up arms against the Sunni militants marching on the city.

Trucks carrying hundreds of volunteers were among a large number of vehicles passing through the key main checkpoint north of Baghdad on Saturday, as security forces carried out spot checks.

The volunteers sang patriotic songs as they were driven to a nearby training centre.

Security forces performed poorly when the militant onslaught was unleashed, but they now appear to be recovering from the initial shock and have begun to regain ground.

They are regrouping despite scenes of disarray in the early days of the offensive, when soldiers shed their uniforms for civilian clothes and abandoned weapons and other equipment.

On Friday, security forces retook areas north of the capital that were among the closest militants got to Baghdad, officers said.

Regular security forces are bolstered by militiamen in preparing to defend the capital.

"Our forces stand as one rank beside the army and the police," said Hussein al-Tamimi, a local leader of the Sahwa militia forces, which fought alongside American troops against militants in previous years.

"Where are they?" he asked of the militants.

"We are waiting for them and looking for them. We want them to come so we can finish them."

Dhia Ali al-Tamimi, a local tribal leader, also spoke out in support of the security forces, telling AFP that "everyone must protect the land and the state".

"Life is completely normal in our areas and attacks by these terrorists don't scare us," he said.

Inside Baghdad itself, security forces have also set up new checkpoints, joining a slew of others.

Brigadier General Saad Maan has told AFP that "we put in place a new plan to protect Baghdad".

It "consists of intensifying the deployment of forces, and increasing intelligence efforts and the use of technology such as (observation) balloons and cameras and other equipment," Maan said.

He also said coordination between the various security forces had been increased.

Inside the capital, life is still relatively normal in the Kadhimiyah area, the city's northernmost area and home to a revered Shiite shrine visited by hundreds of thousands of people every year.

Kadhimiyah shop-owner Abu Khodr was defiant, saying that "standing up to terrorism is a national duty for everyone in the world, not just in Iraq".

"We don't fear them at all," he said of the militants. "Do we fear the enemies of God?"

A confident army Colonel Abduljabbar al-Assadi, inspecting the new defensive positions north of Baghdad, said: "Our forces are ready for any emergency."

Assadi said the checkpoint had already been attacked twice. In one attack, his arm was broken.

"Despite that, I refused to leave the checkpoint, and I will not abandon it," he said.


Source : Sapa-AFP /kd
Date : 14 Jun 2014 16:25
 
Al Qaeda foot soldiers are expected to fund themselves these days I believe. Heard about a guy in Afghanistan who owed his neighbours $2000+ and decided to call it a day because 'Allah could not forgive him if he died without paying his debts' o_O
 
Al Qaeda foot soldiers are expected to fund themselves these days I believe. Heard about a guy in Afghanistan who owed his neighbours $2000+ and decided to call it a day because 'Allah could not forgive him if he died without paying his debts' o_O

ISIS is not Al Qaeda though.

Where do you think they get their cash from?
 
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