The Middle East Conflict Thread

[BBSA]

I would rather have a government that knows how to make friends rather than influence enemies.

Of Cause, but what do you do if you under attack. It is the states responsibility to defend it's citizens.

 

[Xarog]

Of Cause, but what do you do if you under attack. It is the states responsibility to defend it's citizens.

It is also a state's responsibility to not treat people outside the state so poorly so that being attacked becomes inevitable.

Did people say "Ag shame" and rail to Germany's defence when the allies encroached on German territory, even though the German armed forces was defending the German citizenry (Dresden et al)? No.

 

[d0b33]

Of Cause, but what do you do if you under attack. It is the states responsibility to defend it's citizens.

A blockade is an act of war, if I knew that my government has been doing this to a people then I would question my government's innocence.

Actually I feel that the Israeli government is playing with the lives of Israelis, it has the 'samson' option as a nuclear strike, this is the guy who went on a suicide mission in the bible. Looks to me that the religious in the knesset are willing to sacrifice it's own people to fulfill the religious ideology of a few and real peace is not the priority.

 

[BBSA]

It is also a state's responsibility to not treat people outside the state so poorly so that being attacked becomes inevitable.

Israel just want peace. They will negotiate with anybody who does not call for the destruction of Israel.

 

[BBSA]

A blockade is an act of war.

What are you talking about, Gaza has a border with Egypt.

 

[Xarog]

Israel just want peace. They will negotiate with anybody who does not call for the destruction of Israel.

If they wanted peace they would have offered terms in negotiations which could actually lead to the creation of a viable Palestinian state. They have not, thus, they do not actually want peace, but just pay lip-service to the concept.

 

[d0b33]

What are you talking about, Gaza has a border with Egypt.

So? they need permission from Israel to open it.

 

[BBSA]

So? they need permission from Israel to open it.

Egypt must get permission from Israel? Is Egypt not a sovereign state?

 

[BBSA]

If they wanted peace they would have offered terms in negotiations which could actually lead to the creation of a viable Palestinian state. They have not, thus, they do not actually want peace, but just pay lip-service to the concept.

Israel was fully committed to the "Road map" for peace.

 

[Xarog]

Egypt must get permission from Israel? Is Egypt not a sovereign state?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4377776.stm
Israel runs the border crossing.

Israel was fully committed to the "Road map" for peace.

Fully committed to offering something which could not ever lead to a viable Palestinian state.

 

[BBSA]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4377776.stm
Israel runs the border crossing..

Nonsense, do not quote from 2005 articles. Things have changed after that. Go and do your research.

Fully committed to offering something which could not ever lead to a viable Palestinian state.

The Palestinians also accepted the "Road Map"

 

[Xarog]

Nonsense, do not quote from 2005 articles. Things have changed after that. Go and do your research.

Since you seem so confident of your claims that things have changed, I'm sure you can cite sources proving who is currently in control of that particular border.

Edit : and while you're doing that, maybe you can also show why you think the "roadmap" would create a viable palestinian state, and also respond to my other posts where I've repudiated your claims.

 

[rwenzori]

This is probably one of the most profound and precise articles I've read, on the genocide now taking place in Gaza.

Thanks LG - great post.

 

[Xarog]

The Palestinians also accepted the "Road Map"

They agreed to join the process. There was never a settlement on the final terms regarding borders/sovereignty and other critical aspects which is neccessary for the formation of a Palestinian state. Nice try, but no cigar.

 

[BBSA]

Since you seem so confident of your claims that things have changed, I'm sure you can cite sources proving who is currently in control of that particular border.

Egypt threatens to close Rafah border

 

[BBSA]

They agreed to join the process. There was never a settlement on the final terms regarding borders/sovereignty and other critical aspects which is neccessary for the formation of a Palestinian state. Nice try, but no cigar.

If they were not happy with the "Road Map" why did they not go back to the negotiating table (rather than to attact Isreal)?

 

[Xarog]

If they were not happy with the "Road Map" why did they not go back to the negotiating table (rather than to attact Isreal)?

It's rather hard to go to any negotiating table when the other side point blank refuses to engage in dialogue, which is exactly what the US and Israel did when Hamas won the elections.

Egypt threatens to close Rafah border

What I find interesting about this article is that Egypt made returning an Israeli soldier to Israel a pre-condition for opening the border.

Although, that would be collaboration, so I'm sure the article must be lying.

 

[JK8]

More peaceful protests by the Pro-Palestine camp.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/10/israel.gaza.uk.protests/index.html

Where are the pictures of Jews shouting "Death to Gaza"? Oh - wait. There are none.

The Jews that actualy protest are singing he same song the Palestinians are singing, "Death to Israel!!!"
Theres also around 30% non muslims and non Palestinians protesting in all current protests around the including SA.
How can anyone expect a peaceful protest for something like this?
Did you listen to 702 last Monday? People are angry and rightly so.

Israel was fully committed to the "Road map" for peace.

That agreement was only benefiting Israel!
Was no good to the Palestinian people.

 

[BBSA]

It's rather hard to go to any negotiating table when the other side point blank refuses to engage in dialogue, which is exactly what the US and Israel did when Hamas won the elections.:

They will not negotiate with a group which call for the distraction of Israel.

What I find interesting about this article is that Egypt made returning an Israeli soldier to Israel a pre-condition for opening the border.

Although, that would be collaboration, so I'm sure the article must be lying.

So do you say Egypt does not control the border crossing?

Here is another link: Egypt to open border for haj

 

[Necuno]

This is probably one of the most profound and precise articles I've read, on the genocide now taking place in Gaza.

It includes the following truth:

"...what happens in Gaza is the defining moment of our time, which either grants the impunity of war criminals the immunity of our silence, while we contort our own intellect and morality, or gives us the power to speak out. "

Holocaust Denied
by John Pilger
http://www.antiwar.com/pilger/?articleid=14015

"When the truth is replaced by silence," the Soviet dissident Yevgeny Yevtushenko said, "the silence is a lie." It may appear the silence is broken on Gaza. The cocoons of murdered children, wrapped in green, together with boxes containing their dismembered parents and the cries of grief and rage of everyone in that death camp by the sea, can be viewed on al-Jazeera and YouTube, even glimpsed on the BBC. But Russia's incorrigible poet was not referring to the ephemeral we call news; he was asking why those who knew the why never spoke it and so denied it. Among the Anglo-American intelligentsia, this is especially striking. It is they who hold the keys to the great storehouses of knowledge: the historiographies and archives that lead us to the why.

They know that the horror now raining on Gaza has little to do with Hamas or, absurdly, "Israel's right to exist." They know the opposite to be true: that Palestine's right to exist was canceled 61 years ago and the expulsion and, if necessary, extinction of the indigenous people was planned and executed by the founders of Israel. They know, for example, that the infamous "Plan D" resulted in the murderous depopulation of 369 Palestinian towns and villages by the Haganah (Jewish army) and that massacre upon massacre of Palestinian civilians in such places as Deir Yassin, al-Dawayima, Eilaboun, Jish, Ramle and Lydda are referred to in official records as "ethnic cleansing." Arriving at a scene of this carnage, David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, was asked by a general, Yigal Allon, "What shall we do with the Arabs?" Ben-Gurion, reported the Israeli historian Benny Morris, "made a dismissive, energetic gesture with his hand and said, ‘Expel them'. The order to expel an entire population "without attention to age" was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, a future prime minister promoted by the world's most efficient propaganda as a peacemaker. The terrible irony of this was addressed only in passing, such as when the Mapan Party co-leader Meir Ya'ari noted "how easily" Israel's leaders spoke of how it was "possible and permissible to take women, children and old men and to fill the roads with them because such is the imperative of strategy … who remembers who used this means against our people during the [Second World] war … we are appalled."

Every subsequent "war" Israel has waged has had the same objective: the expulsion of the native people and the theft of more and more land. The lie of David and Goliath, of perennial victim, reached its apogee in 1967 when the propaganda became a righteous fury that claimed the Arab states had struck first. Since then, mostly Jewish truth-tellers such as Avi Schlaim, Noam Chomsky, the late Tanya Reinhart, Neve Gordon, Tom Segev, Yuri Avnery, Ilan Pappe and Norman Finklestein have dispatched this and other myths and revealed a state shorn of the humane traditions of Judaism, whose unrelenting militarism is the sum of an expansionist, lawless and racist ideology called zionism. "It seems," wrote the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe on 2 January, "that even the most horrendous crimes, such as the genocide in Gaza, are treated as desperate events, unconnected to anything that happened in the past and not associated with any ideology or system … Very much as the apartheid ideology explained the oppressive policies of the South African government, this ideology – in its most consensual and simplistic variety – has allowed all the Israeli governments in the past and the present to dehumanize the Palestinians wherever they are and strive to destroy them. The means altered from period to period, from location to location, as did the narrative covering up these atrocities. But there is a clear pattern [of genocide]."

In Gaza, the enforced starvation and denial of humanitarian aid, the piracy of life-giving resources such as fuel and water, the denial of medicines and treatment, the systematic destruction of infrastructure and the killing and maiming of the civilian population, 50 per cent of whom are children, meet the international standard of the Genocide Convention. "Is it an irresponsible overstatement," asked Richard Falk, the United Nations Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory and international law authority at Princeton University, "to associate the treatment of Palestinians with this criminalized Nazi record of collective atrocity? I think not."

...
*rest of the article at link provided

LoneGunman,

Genesis 21:10 and she said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac."

I guess poor old ishmael is still being sent away and there is made sure of that there is nothing of him and the inheritance either...

...interesting read; thanks for posting. Seems like they are returning what they have been taught, but as with all things the wheel eventually turns and the favor(s) will be return into them.