The Middle East Conflict Thread

[BBSA]

100 pages and still alive.

Remarkable ! There is still hope.

You meant 200 pages

 

[daveza]

I load 30 posts per page

 

[semiautomatix]

I load 30 posts per page

You do know that you're the odd one out?

 

[daveza]

For this thread 50 posts per page would be useful !

 

[Alan]

Hamas rocket chief is killed

THE mastermind of Hamas’s long-range rocket attacks on Israel was killed yesterday in an airstrike, according to Israeli military sources.

Amir Mansi, an engineer who commanded cells responsible for firing Grad rockets supplied by Iran, died after coming under attack from a helicopter.

The Israeli army said he had been trying to fire mortar shells at their troops when he was targeted. Mansi headed the Hamas military wing’s Gaza Strip rocket division and “played a big role in Grad rocket attacks on Israeli communities”, a military spokesman said.

He was killed after a Grad struck the Israeli town of Gedera, near the Tel Nof airbase, where nuclear weapons are believed to be stored.

His death was disclosed as Israeli forces said they had surrounded Gaza City, putting nearly 1m Palestinians under siege. Leaflets dropped by air warned that the 15-day-old offensive would be escalated.

More than 800 Palestinians and 13 Israelis have died in the conflict. Nine people, including two children, were killed in a Gaza garden yesterday.

A 20,000-strong protest in central London ended in clashes with police last night. Three officers were injured after coming under “sustained attack” near the Israeli embassy from protesters armed with baseball bats and placards.

 

[BBSA]

Hamas rocket chief is killed

Now, that is good news.

 

[JHatman]

Hamas rocket chief is killed

Hope the shell left a deep enough hole to simply push his corpse in and kick sand over it.

 

[Alan]

In defence of Israel

The pictures do not lie. Laser-guided but blind to the distinction between fighter and civilian, Israeli bombs have reduced schools, apartment blocks and police parade grounds to visions of hell. Aid workers and relatives have removed bodies and pieces of bodies, and survivors too traumatised to talk. On Boxing Day: at least 50 cadets killed at Gaza City's main police station alone. On Monday: reports, not denied by Israel, of phosphorus shells used over civilian neighbourhoods. On Tuesday: 40 children and teachers found dead in the wreckage of a school. And yesterday: reports of up to 30 more children killed in a house to which Israeli troops had moved them for their own safety.

For all Israel's claims to have launched only targeted strikes on Hamas targets, it has shown scant concern for civilians caught in Gaza's crossfire in the past two weeks. Yet this is as nothing next to the contempt shown by Hamas.

Unlike the Israel Defence Forces (IDF), the paramilitary overlords of the Gaza Strip use civilians routinely for protection in the knowledge that many will be sacrificed to Israeli airstrikes. Unlike the IDF, they deliberately target civilians with their own rockets. At least 70 such rockets were launched from Gaza into Israel in December. This was the criminal act that triggered the current crisis. It was as simple and blatant as the history of the Holy Land is complex, and every time that bewildered Gazans are corralled by Hamas fighters into a human shield, it is compounded by rank cowardice.

Israel is an expression of outrage at the Holocaust and defiance of those who would turn a blind eye to history. It is also a country that in 60 years has justified its statehood by defending itself against those who deny its right to exist, preserving its democracy even when this has led it into diplomatic isolation, and building an economy that is the envy of the Middle East.

The same can scarcely be said of Hamas. Where Fatah at least speaks the language of negotiation, Hamas has explicitly rejected a two-state solution. It exists chiefly to promote a nihilistic doctrine of self-defence through terror, and to foster a delusional pan-Islamism with no tolerance for unbelievers, let alone a Jewish state.

Israel has a powerful ally in the United States. Its critics are wont to condemn this alliance as a Jewish axis blind to heart-rending realities in Gaza and to the sacrifices necessary for peace. No one can be unmoved by the suffering witnessed by the Norwegian surgeon who texted friends to tell them “we're wading in death, blood [and] amputees”. But the way to end it is not to abandon Israel. It is to defeat Hamas. As Washington contemplates an opening to Iran, its reluctance to condemn Israel is not ideological but rational. The alternative would be to open talks with Tehran while its proxy in Gaza still threatened much of Israel with Iranian-built rockets.

The Vatican has failed unequivocally to disavow Cardinal Renato Martino's remarks likening Gaza to a concentration camp. It should know better. Those who join Annie Lennox and Ken Livingstone in Hyde Park tomorrow to condemn what they consider Israel's disproportionate response should, likewise, know that Israel is at war - but with a non-state organisation that depends on just such a response to bolster its flagging support among the Palestinian people.

Israel is better than its enemies. That is why the world expects better when children and civilians die under its ordnance. The past two weeks' fighting have damaged it internationally and will have radicalised some Palestinians. But it has also sent the essential message that Hamas is no partner for negotiations, much less for peace. The bitter lesson of this war is that Hamas cannot be allowed to win.

Very good article IMO

 

[marine1]

Hamas rocket chief is killed

Excellent news Well done to the IDF

 

[Xarog]

Like you have been doing all along whenever someone quotes something from CNN etc.

Kindly show me any link to CNN which in any way refutes anything I have said in this thread, which I did NOT address.

You're still the one that brought the topic up.

Yes, the similarities between Apartheid South Africa, the nature of the resistence and the social repercussions are quite valid comparisons, and from those comparisons we notice many relevant similarities between the two states. That is what I brought up. You started making mention of the numbers, which is entirely irrelevant. My only responses regarding the number were of an explorative nature; i.e. I wanted to see where you were going with it. And as it turned out, the number was not relevant.

And round and round we go. Ive already given my response to this.

Yes, you think Israel should ignore International Law and should admit that it is a rogue state.

It doesnt change the fact that they supported one side and are firing thousands of rockets at israel

Where did they support sides? I would like to see links for this please. And as for the rocket fire, that started after 30 years of occupation with not a single legitimate and viable offer from Israel which could lead to a state for the palestinians. Occupation came first, violent response second, mkay?

(Just like White South Africans denied black people the right to vote or to participate in any meaningful way in who got to rule over them, the ANC spent many years trying to change the way South Africa worked through peaceful means before finally resorting to violence.)

As far as I know they were only bombed on 2 or 3 occassions in the 10 years preceding the 2003 war. There was no significant damage in those bombings that would cause their army to no longer be able to fight.

http://www.historyguy.com/no-fly_zone_war.html
Again, shall I paste another mountain of links incase you think this one is biased?

Will I also have to provide a mountain of links proving that Iraq had been under 15 years of crippling sanctions and was never able to rebuild its army in any meaningful way since the first Gulf War?

Im not sure what you are talking about here but it seems you are criticizing the US for not invading NK. I though you were against war.

I am criticising your logic for justifying the bombing of the Israeli tunnel. I applied your logic to a different situation, and now you object.

So you cant prove the US is bankrupt to you choose rather to insult me.

Thankyou, you just ignored the two links that I pasted (as I expected). You've ignored the google page that I posted to, with thousands of links explaining the problems with trade deficits in general.

That seems to be quite common in the liberal camp on this forum.

No, what is common is that certain people such as yourself are engaging in attempts at point scoring rather than addressing the issue openly and honestly. You are being disingenuous and people are quite rightly upset with such behaviour.

The world recovered from the great depression which was much worse that todays situation. You're quite the pessimist, arent you.

Actually, there are many economic indicators which are much worse today than they ever were during the great depression. It didn't just occur overnight.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Timeline.htm

* Between May 1928 and September 1929, the average prices of stocks will rise 40 percent. Trading will mushroom from 2-3 million shares per day to over 5 million. The boom is largely artificial.

Just out of curiosity, how much do you think the US stock markets have lost in the last year (since their nadir)?

And how do you reason that?

Have you not read the numerous posts in this thread about this? Is Egypt, well-paid by the USA, supposed to take responsibility for those in Gaza, who have had their money, food, water access, medical treatment, fuel etc withheld by Israel, who occupies the land rightfully belonging to the people of Gaza?

Well yes, I was going to point that out after BBSA started owning up to his mistakes like he thinks others should do. Note how he's ignored this point entirely.

LOL.. What happened to:

Let me try yet again to break it down for you :

I stand by, "I am ignoring your posts which I may or may not find inconvenient as you have ignored mine, and I will do so until such a time as you stop ignoring my posts, seeing as you started the game of ignoring posts."

This is the position I have taken. You ignore posts you find inconvenient, and to show you what it is like, I do it to you. You get upset with me and claim that there is no point in debating with me when I behave like you.

Which then leads to :

All of which has nothing to do with the other posts of mine that you ignored. You object to your own behaviour when that behaviour is reflected back to you. You are a hypocrite. QED.

I really cannot put it any simpler than this. It's like you hitting someone in the face, and then calling them a bully when they hit you back.

No who is the hypocrite?

Still just you, I'm afraid. My two statements agree perfectly with each other.

P.S. note how you've ignored this post :

And how do you reason that?

Have you not read the numerous posts in this thread about this? Is Egypt, well-paid by the USA, supposed to take responsibility for those in Gaza, who have had their money, food, water access, medical treatment, fuel etc withheld by Israel, who occupies the land rightfully belonging to the people of Gaza?

What's your excuse this time? Maybe the W in his name is in an inconvenient place?

(P.S. Rwenzori's post is vaguely the same as the response I would give you once you actually had the balls to address points you didn't exactly like.)

 

[Alan]

So if like Egypt a Palestinian government makes peace with Israel and abandons this obsession of destroying it which has only and will continue to bring abject misery to the average Palestinian like it did to the Egyptians, they too would be sell out stooges of the puppeteer imperialist west

 

[d0b33]

Are the Pro-Israelis still naive enough to believe that Israel just wants peace and a 2 state solution? Wake-up...

Look at what some of the parties on the Knesset have to say.

Likud...

The Likud charter continues to emphasize the right of settlement in "Judea (and) Samaria" (more commonly known as the "West Bank") and Gaza,"[2] and as such, brings it into direct conflict with Palestinian claims on the same territory, although the majority of Palestinians claim the entire territory of Israel as their own.[3] Similarly, their claims of the Jordan river as the permanent eastern border to Israel and Jerusalem as "the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel," do the same.
The 'Peace & Security' chapter of the Likud Party platform “flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.” The chapter continues: “The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state.”

NRP...

The NRP's views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be summarized as:
There will only be one state between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea – the State of Israel. No independent national Arab entity (such as a putative Palestinian state) will exist within these borders
No part of Israel will be given over to a foreign government or authority.

Parties like Kadima may be in favor of a two state solution but there is obvious opposition in it's own parliament. For a nuclear armed nation to have it's people at odds with each other like this clearly is not a good thing.

You people are hypocrites calling out the Hamas charter that does not recognize Israel when parties from Israel's own parliament don't even recognize a Palestinian state.

 

[Alan]

Clutching at straws now Sufferwell. Perhaps you should look up the meaning of the word 'democracy'

 

[d0b33]

Clutching at straws now Sufferwell. Perhaps you should look up the meaning of the word 'democracy'

Democracy without a constitution? hardly up to modern standards, fact is that these parties have a say.

 

[BBSA]

Well yes, I was going to point that out after BBSA started owning up to his mistakes like he thinks others should do. Note how he's ignored this point entirely.



Let me try yet again to break it down for you :


This is the position I have taken. You ignore posts you find inconvenient, and to show you what it is like, I do it to you. You get upset with me and claim that there is no point in debating with me when I behave like you.

Which then leads to :


I really cannot put it any simpler than this. It's like you hitting someone in the face, and then calling them a bully when they hit you back.


Still just you, I'm afraid. My two statements agree perfectly with each other.

P.S. note how you've ignored this post :


What's your excuse this time? Maybe the W in his name is in an inconvenient place?

Look I'm more than happy if you ignore my posts. Stop trying so hart, I'm not going to bait.

P.S. Rwenzori's post is vaguely the same as the response I would give you once you actually had the balls to address points you didn't exactly like.)

LOL.... You thought that Israel was in control of the border crossing.

 

[Alan]

Democracy without a constitution? hardly up to modern standards, fact is that these parties have a say.

OMG they have a say Quick oppress them. Sounds like you'd fit in well with Hamas styled totalitarianism

 

[d0b33]

OMG they have a say Quick oppress them. Sounds like you'd fit in well with Hamas styled totalitarianism

Yes, ignore the issue... Likud is the major opposition, you are naive to believe Kadima will be able to create a two state solution with such strong opposition.

 

[Alan]

Yes, ignore the issue... Likud is the major opposition, you are naive to believe Kadima will be able to create a two state solution with such strong opposition.

Like you ignore the issue that the new state's sole objective is too destroy the other state. Who wouldn't want that for a neighbour

 

[BBSA]

And how do you reason that?

Have you not read the numerous posts in this thread about this? Is Egypt, well-paid by the USA, supposed to take responsibility for those in Gaza, who have had their money, food, water access, medical treatment, fuel etc withheld by Israel, who occupies the land rightfully belonging to the people of Gaza?

There is many organisations who will take responsibility for the people of Gaza. Egypt do not have to spent a cent on their Arab brothers.

But lets be honest, the real reason Egypt do not want to open the crossing is because they also do not agree with that Hamas is doing.

 

[d0b33]

Like you ignore the issue that the new state's sole objective is too destroy the other state. Who wouldn't want that for a neighbour

Likud was founded before hamas.