The Middle East Conflict Thread

Glock26

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Oh..and those who think that Hamas aren't terrorists might just want to look a little bit into our own group PAGAD.
How many here know that they are a branch of Hamas who provide logistics in terms of fighters, guns, money and support to various Middle Eastern terrorist groups?
How many know that there are various terrorist training camps here in SA where they come to get training in explosives and arms?
That there are gunshops here illegally supplying arms to PAGAD to be redistributed to fight Jews and the USA overseas. And that the police have already shut a few of them down, but political pressure turns a blind eye in many cases since it is seen as repaying a favour?
You think PAGAD is just about fighting gangsters? Don't be stupid.
Hamas and IlQaeda have a firm footing in SA with lots of plans for this region too. Don't be crying in a few years when you find that Christianity is also seen as against the ultimate aims of these groups.

G26
 

BBSA

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All of which has nothing to do with the other posts of mine that you ignored. You object to your own behaviour when that behaviour is reflected back to you. You are a hypocrite. QED.

LOL.. What happened to:
I stand by, "I am ignoring your posts which I may or may not find inconvenient as you have ignored mine, and I will do so until such a time as you stop ignoring my posts, seeing as you started the game of ignoring posts."

No who is the hypocrite?
 

daveza

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In the history of the world, Palestine has never existed as a nation.

A nation is a cultural and social community.

A state is a political association with effective sovereignty over a geographic area and representing a population.

Palestine has never existed as a state but certainly has as a nation.
 

Glock26

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Thats false, I sense if there was a link a blue and white flag will blowing in the wind on the top right hand corner...
http://www.google.co.za/search?hl=e...+existed+as+a+nation&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
500,000 pages disagree with you.

The very notion of a “Palestinian Arab nation”, having ancient attachments to the Holy Land going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world! There is not, nor has there ever been, a distinct “Palestinian” culture or language. Further, there has never been a Palestinian state governed by Arab Palestinians in history, nor was there ever a serious Arab-Palestinian national movement until 1964…three years BEFORE the Arabs of “Palestine” lost the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) and Gaza as a result of the 1967 Six Day’s War (which the Arabs started). Even the so-called leader of the “Palestinian” people, Yasser Arafat, is Egyptian! In short, the so-called Arab “Palestinians” are a manufactured people…a people with no history and no authority…whose sole purpose for existence is to destroy the Jewish State!



Israel first became a nation in 1312 B.C., two thousand years before the rise of Islam! Seven hundred and twenty-six years later, in 586 B.C., these first ancient Jews in the land of Israel (Judea) were overrun and Israel’s First Jewish Temple (Solomon’s Temple) on Jerusalem’s Old City Temple Mount was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, king of ancient Babylon. Many of the Jews were killed, enslaved or expelled; however many were allowed to remain. These Jews along with their progeny and other Jews, who would resettle over the next 500 years, rebuilt the Nation of Israel and also a Second Temple in Jerusalem on the same site as Solomon’s Temple. Thus, the claim that Jews suddenly appeared fifty years ago, right after the Holocaust, and drove out the Arabs is preposterous!



Then, in 70 A.D.(nearly 2,000 years ago), it was the Roman Empire’s turn to march through ancient Israel, known at that time as Judea, and destroy the Second Jewish Temple, slaughtering or driving out much of the Jewish population. The Romans, without success, had tried to impose their many deities on the Jews, but few Jews were willing to submit to the Roman demands regarding their worship, and were certainly unwilling to regard a Roman Emperor as a divine being.



After a succession of uprisings against Roman rule, in which over one and a half million Jews were killed, enslaved or driven out of their homeland, the then Roman Procurator in charge of the area decided to take even another measure in retaliation. Calling his scribes, he asked the historians as to who had been the worst enemies of the Jews in past history. He was told the “Philistines.” Having this determination, he then ordered all maps altered to reflect that the Land of Israel (Judea) would be labeled “Philistia” (further bastardized into “Palaistina”) to dishonor the Jews and obliterate them, if only figuratively, from the map. Hence, the name “Palestine” was invented, and entirely appropriate that this invented name of the Romans would be used by Muhammad’s invented religion of Islam, over 1,800 years later, when initiating its campaign to steal the Jewish homeland.



Over 3,250 years, various Peoples, Religions and Empires marched through Jerusalem, Israel’s ancient capital established by King David. The region was successively ruled by the Hebrews (Jews), Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Maccabeans, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Egyptians, the Crusaders, Mamelukes, the Turks (who indifferently governed the backward neglected territory from the 16th Century until the British drove them out during World War I) and then once again by the Jews in 1948. None bothered, nor were they in the least bit inclined, to build a Nation of their own…EXCEPT the Jews!

It should be noted that in 636 A.D., when the Arab marauders of Muhammad came to the land, and uprooted even more of the Jews, they did not form any Arab nation there…and certainly not a “Palestinian” nation. They were simply “Arabs” who, as did others before them, moved into a geo-political area called “Palestine!” And, remember this one fact…it was not the Jews who “usurped” (a favorite word from the Arab propagandists) the land from the Arabs. It was the Arabs in 636 A.D. who overran and stole it from the Jews! A point: The Dome of the Rock Mosque was constructed atop the ruins of the second Jewish Temple, and not vice-versa!

The Jewish People have the most legitimate “Birth Certificate” of any nation in the world! Every time there is an archaeological dig in Israel, it does nothing but support the fact that the Jewish People have had a presence there for well over 3,000 years. The national coins, the pottery, the cities, the ancient Hebrew texts…all support this claim. Yes, other peoples have passed through, but there is no mistaking the fact that Jews have always had a continuous presence in that land for over 3,000 years. This predates and certainly dwarfs any claims that other people in the regions may have.

IN CONCLUSION: No nation, other than the ancient nation of Israel and later again in 1948, with the rebirth of the 2nd Nation of Israel, has ever ruled as a sovereign national entity on this land. A mighty Jewish empire extended over this entire area many centuries before the Arabs, and their newly invented religion of Islam appeared on the scene in the 7th Century A.D.

What about that would you like to disagree with???

G26
 

daveza

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http://www.think-israel.org/safian.waltmearsheimer.html

Not only is your quote out of context, its quoting the completely wrong person? lol

You score a point and I stand corrected on the name attached to the quote.

I take it the other quotes are factually acceptable, and that there is no argument with the sentiment of the quote incorrectly attributed to Ben Gurion, but actually quoted by Moshe Dayan.
 

Glock26

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Just this famous quote by MOSHE DAYAN

There isn't any place that was established in an area where there had not at one time been an Arab settlement.
There isn't a place in SA where there wasn't once a tribal african settlement either.
I expect you to pack up your belongings immediately and please move somewhere else. You are on previously occupied territory.
:rolleyes:

G26
 

Glock26

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OH...and to trash your once again STUPID quote:

ACTUAL QUOTE AND CONTEXT:

The quote is taken from an address Dayan gave to Technion University students on March 19, 1969. A transcript of the speech appeared in Ha'aretz on April 4, 1969.

In answer to a student's question suggesting that Israel adopt a policy of punishing Arabs who commit crimes in the West Bank by deportation to Jordan, Dayan answers that he is vehemently opposed to this idea, insisting that the answer to the longstanding Arab-Israeli problem is to learn to live together with Arab neighbors. He goes on to say:

We came to a region of land that was inhabited by Arabs, and we set up a Jewish state. In a considerable number of places, we purchased the land from Arabs and set up Jewish villages where there had once been Arab villages. You don't even know the names [of the previous Arab villages] and I don't blame you, because those geography books aren't around anymore. Not only the books, the villages aren't around. Nahalal was established in the place of Mahalul, and Gvat was established in the place of Jibta, Sarid in the place of Huneifis and Kfar Yehoshua in the place of Tel Shaman. There isn't any place that was established in an area where there had not at one time been an Arab settlement.

Dayan's conclusion was that the solution to the Arab-Israeli problem is to learn to coexist with them.

In the misquote, the key phrase "we purchased the land from Arabs" is omitted, and thus Dayan's meaning is reversed. Dayan was not saying that Arabs were dispossessed. On the contrary, he was indicating that though Arabs sold the land of their own free will, given their presence in the region, the Israeli goal is to live peacefully together with them.

Read it. Please read it. And then how about an apology?
Oh wait....you'll just go looking for another STUPID quote.

G26
 

daveza

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Exactly. So the Ozzies must go, the yanks must go, we must go...

Half this thread and any Israel/Palestine thread is about who was there first.

Quite irrelevant to the present day reality.
 

BBSA

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http://www.google.co.za/search?hl=e...+existed+as+a+nation&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
500,000 pages disagree with you.



What about that would you like to disagree with???

G26


Here is more:

Back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper "Trouw" published an interview it had with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. This is what he had to say:

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism.
 

Glock26

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Exactly. So the Ozzies must go, the yanks must go, we must go...

Half this thread and any Israel/Palestine thread is about who was there first.

Quite irrelevant to the present day reality.
Then why do you keep bringing up the past and who was there first?
Present day reality is that the state of Israel is fighting for existence.
All the (allied) territories around them don't want them to stop growing..they want them to stop existing. Simple.
Take all the guns away from the surrounding Arabs, and there will be peace. Take all the guns away from Isreal, and they won't exist.

Make up your mind. You want to talk about ancient rights, or modern facts? Either way, you just look silly.
 

d0b33

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There isn't a place in SA where there wasn't once a tribal african settlement either.
I expect you to pack up your belongings immediately and please move somewhere else. You are on previously occupied territory.
:rolleyes:

G26

Don't be ignorant... SA is HUGE, hardly 20%(being generous) of this land has ever been occupied before the settlers arrived. Yes there are many places that was once inhabited but most of the land was not.

Not approving of what the settlers did but this place was like the wild west.(and still is in many parts)
 

daveza

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Yes yes we accept the fact that the Arabs sold them the land - so what?

It was still originally their land.

I must add I'm getting a little annoyed at the insults - I don't recall calling you or anyone a sheep, silly, idiot, suckers .

Another quote this time from the 19th century American philosopher Elbert Hubbard -

“If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.”
 

Glock26

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Yes, but much better to call him names AND answer his arguments.
Oh...and so far I think I have just called you Stupid and a sheep. Those aren't vile names, they are just proven facts.
I haven't even started on the names yet...
 

Glock26

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Yes yes we accept the fact that the Arabs sold them the land - so what?
It was still originally their land.
So now you are resorting to claims that legitimate ownership of properly via purchase agreement isn't valid?
I think there might be a few homeowners here who might just disagree with you.

G26
 

daveza

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"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."--Eric Hoffer

Great minds discuss ideas, lesser minds discuss things, and sh^theads get personal.

When we judge and criticise others we are actually giving a description of ourselves.

Shall we continue or rather debate without the insults ?
 
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