The Middle East Conflict Thread

[Alan]

link

5 live prisoners for 2 dead soldiers. Where's the cries of disproportion

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Well... if a Professor of international law who happens to be Jewish shares my view, I think it's obvious who the ones on the right side of the argument are.

I thought it was more having Jimmy peanut, communists and people who strap bombs to kids that put you on the right side of the argument.

Unfortunately for you we got a deity on this side of the argument as Ghazi pointed out

 

[d0b33]

Wasn't it UN Security Council Resolution 1701 that brought an end to the devastating 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah?

That brought about the ceasefire, but capturing IDF soldiers for a prisoner swap was Hezbollah's intention all along therefore they pretty much won that war.

Israel just killed a lot of civilians... *sigh* they'll never make friends in that region.

 

[BBSA]

That brought about the ceasefire, but capturing IDF soldiers for a prisoner swap was Hezbollah's intention all along therefore they pretty much won that war.

Israel just killed a lot of civilians... so stupid, they'll never make friends in that region.

Israels aim was to stop the rockets fired at them, and they accomplished that. The same will happen in the current conflict.

 

[d0b33]

5 live prisoners for 2 dead soldiers. Where's the cries of disproportion

Um, along with the five prisoners were 200 bodies of miltants and other prisoners...

 

[Ghazi]

That brought about the ceasefire, but capturing IDF soldiers for a prisoner swap was Hezbollah's intention all along therefore they pretty much won that war.

Israel just killed a lot of civilians... so stupid, they'll never make friends in that region.

That is a very strange measure of winning a war, but anyway lets hope that Hamas "win" the war soon to stop the mayhem.
I'm sure Israel, just as they did with Hezbolla, will not contest such claims of winning, and just be grateful for the peace such a "win" brings.

Didn't the 2006 war start with Hezbolla killing Israeli civilians with rocket fire?

Edit:
What impact on the message were you expecting by changing the words "so stupid" to "*sigh*" ?

 

[Ghazi]

Um, along with the five prisoners were 200 bodies of miltants and other prisoners...

Not that It's of much importance, but what are the numbers you mention above actually?

What were these prisoners imprisoned for?

 

[Alan]

Not that It's of much importance, but what are the numbers you mention above actually?

What were these prisoners imprisoned for?

The one glorious freedom fighter smashed in a young Israeli girl's head IIRC


EDIT:

Samir Kuntar (Arabic: سمير القنطار‎, also transcribed Sameer, Kantar, Quntar, Qantar) (born July 20, 1962 in Abey, Lebanon), is a Lebanese Druze militant and a former member of the Palestine Liberation Front. On April 22, 1979, at the age of 16, he participated in the attempted kidnapping of an Israeli family in Nahariya that resulted in the deaths of four Israelis and two of his fellow kidnappers.[1] Kuntar was convicted in an Israeli court for murder of an Israeli policeman, Eliyahu Shahar, 31 year-old Danny Haran, and Haran's 4-year-old daughter, Einat Haran. He was also convicted of indirectly causing the death of two-year-old Yael Haran by suffocation, as her mother, Smadar, tried to quiet her crying while hiding from Kuntar. [2] In 1980 Kuntar was sentenced to four life sentences.[2]

Immediately after his arrest, Kuntar admitted to the killings,[3] but at his sentence and thereafter he denied killing the father and daughter, saying that they had been killed by security forces in the ensuing gun battle. He did admit to taking them hostage and killing Eliyahu Shahar, however.[4][5] He spent nearly three decades in prison before being released on July 16, 2008 as part of an Israel-Hezbollah prisoner swap.

Israeli witnesses said that Kuntar's group took Danny and Einat down to the beach, where a shootout with Israeli policemen and soldiers erupted. According to the witnesses, when Kuntar's group found that the rubber boat they'd arrived in was disabled by gunfire, Kuntar shot Danny at close range in the back, in front of his daughter, and drowned him in the sea to ensure he was dead. Next, eyewitnesses said he smashed the head of 4 year-old Einat on beach rocks and crushed her skull with the butt of his rifle, Smadar Haran accidentally suffocated Yael to death while attempting to quiet her whimpering, which would have revealed their hiding place,[16][17] from where she saw Danny and Einat being led away at gunpoint by Kuntar. A policeman and two of Kuntar's comrades were killed in the shootout on the beach; Kuntar and the fourth member of the group, Ahmed Assad Abras, were captured. Abras was freed by Israel in the Jibril Agreement of May 1985.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Kuntar

That kind of thing gets you a lot of praise and admiration on Sufferwell, Xarog, Daveza and co's side of the fence

In November 2008, Syrian president Bashar Assad presented Kuntar with Syria's highest medal

 

[d0b33]

That kind of thing gets you a lot of praise and admiration on Sufferwell, Xarog, Daveza and co's side of the fence

Oh please... I don't praise anyone in this thread, I'm only posting here(putting up with your pro US/Israel military propaganda) because I care about innocent civilians being killed.

 

[aEsOp]

That would in reallity be the most effective and practical solution, but then when have you ever experienced a politician calling for anything practical or effective?

In reply to:
Originally Posted by adamr
"so why dont they just do that nuke the whole place, kill all Palestinians ... once and for all ..."

Anyone with an opinion like you 2 have should not be allowed to take part in intelligent discussions. Your solution reminds me of Hitler's final solution. people like you who have no regard or are just too stupid to see how much human life is being wasted in gaza now.

During this whole conflict that has been going on for many years both parties share guilt but at the moment what Israel is doing are War crimes, they are attacking a people with no army to defend themselves , will not let enough aid in and have refused to let the women and children out. This is plain murder bordering genocide and if you are too simple to see that you do not deserve to be part of this discussion.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2452119,00.html
Does this story not remind you of something ? Maybe there is a reason why even Nelson Mandela has called Israel an apharteid regime.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2452141,00.html
And this story, well make your own opinion.

Bottom line is if you stand by your beliefs blindly (pro-america/israel ) you are no better than any fanatic of any sort.

 

[krycor]

Gaza a 'test lab for new weapon'
12/01/2009 22:16 - (SA)

Oslo - Israel is testing a new "extremely nasty" type of weapon in Gaza, two medics charged as they returned home to Norway on Monday after spending 10 days working at a hospital in the war-torn Palestinian territory.

"There's a very strong suspicion I think that Gaza is now being used as a test laboratory for new weapons," Mads Gilbert told reporters at Oslo's Gardermoen airport, commenting on the kinds of injuries he and his colleague Erik Fosse had seen while working at the Shifa Hospital in Gaza.

The two medics, who were sent into the war zone by the pro-Palestinian aid organisation Norwac on December 31, said they had seen clear signs that Dense Inert Metal Explosives (DIME), an experimental kind of explosive, were being used in Gaza.

"This is a new generation of very powerful small explosives that detonates with an extreme power and dissipates its power within a range of five to 10 metres," said Gilbert, 61.

"We have not seen the casualties affected directly by the bomb because they are normally torn to pieces and do not survive, but we have seen a number of very brutal amputations... without shrapnel injuries which we strongly suspect must have been caused by the DIME weapons," he added.

Injuries look very different

The weapon "causes the tissue to be torn from the flesh. It looks very different (from a shrapnel injury). I have seen and treated a lot of different injuries for the last 30 years in different war zones, and this looks completely different," said Fosse, 58.

"If you are in the immediate (vicinity of) a DIME weapon, it's like your legs get torn off. It's an enormous pressure wave and there is no shrapnel," he explained.

Gilbert also accused Israel of having used the weapon in the 2006 Lebanon war and previously in Gaza, and referred to studies showing wounds from the explosive could cause lethal forms of cancer within just four to six months.

"Israel should disclose what weapons they use and the international community should make an investigation," he said, stressing the amount of damage apparently caused by the new form of explosive.

"We are not soft-skinned when it comes to war injuries, but these amputations are really extremely nasty and for many of the patients not survivable," he said.

- AFP

Hrm.. you know what i love about the Israeli's?? they, like Bush seem to be creating a new standard for answering questions where they don;t want to answer it. Can't wait to see this new precedent to catch on! Then we will see these same people whine about it in the media and i lmao.

 

[daveza]

That kind of thing gets you a lot of praise and admiration on Sufferwell, Xarog, Daveza and co's side of the fence

If you insist on playing the man instead of the ball I'll take the bait for once.

If you have read my posts and still think I vaguely support hamas and even more so the killing of a child then quite frankly you have sh^t for brains.

Just how sick are you.

 

[krycor]

Israel bans Arab parties
12/01/2009 20:23 - (SA)

Jerusalem - Israeli election officials have banned Arab political parties from running in the upcoming elections.

Parliament speaker Giora Pordes says the Central Election Committee voted overwhelmingly in favour of a proposal to ban two blocs of Arab parties from the February 10 vote.

The committee said the blocs are guilty of incitement and support terrorism.

The election committee is made up of representatives of Israel's political parties.

Arab lawmaker Ahmed Tibi called Monday's decision racist.

He says he will appeal the ruling to the nation's Supreme Court.

About one-fifth of Israel's 7 million citizens are Arabs.

- AP

Very interesting... I wonder if they will block them from voting too, probably didn't like the protests/marches in Israel

 

[krycor]

And now for a weird report..

Rice shame-faced by Bush over UN Gaza vote: Olmert

JERUSALEM (AFP) – US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was left shame-faced after President George W. Bush ordered her to abstain in a key UN vote on the Gaza war, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said on Monday.

"She was left shamed. A resolution that she prepared and arranged, and in the end she did not vote in favour," Olmert said in a speech in the southern town of Ashkelon.

The UN Security Council passed a resolution last Thursday calling for an immediate ceasefire in the three-week-old conflict in the Gaza Strip and an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza where hundreds have been killed.

Fourteen of the council's 15 members voted in favour of the resolution, which was later rejected by both Israel and Hamas.

The United States, Israel's main ally, had initially been expected to voted in line with the other 14 but Rice later became the sole abstention.

"In the night between Thursday and Friday, when the secretary of state wanted to lead the vote on a ceasefire at the Security Council, we did not want her to vote in favour," Olmert said.

"I said 'get me President Bush on the phone'. They said he was in the middle of giving a speech in Philadelphia. I said I didn't care. 'I need to talk to him now'. He got off the podium and spoke to me.

"I told him the United States could not vote in favour. It cannot vote in favour of such a resolution. He immediately called the secretary of state and told her not to vote in favour."

Bush has consistently placed the blame for the conflict on Hamas, telling reporters on Monday that while he wanted to see a "sustainable ceasefire" in Gaza, it was up to Hamas to choose to end its rocket fire on Israel.

But a US State Department official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, denied Olmert's claim.

"Mr. Olmert is wrong," the official said.

Even if everything had gone according to plan, "she would have abstained. That was the plan," said the official. "The government of Israel does not make US policy."

- AFP

 

[marine1]

I care about innocent civilians being killed.

You care about Jews? Show me one post that says that.

 

[marine1]

Your solution reminds me of Hitler's final solution.

Better than waiting for your buddies in Iran and Syria to do it first.

 

[Xarog]

So if like Egypt a Palestinian government makes peace with Israel and abandons this obsession of destroying it which has only and will continue to bring abject misery to the average Palestinian like it did to the Egyptians, they too would be sell out stooges of the puppeteer imperialist west

No, but if the Palestinian leadership started doing whatever the Israelis/US wanted, despite widespread opposition by palestinians themselves, and if the US also paid the palestinian leadership several billion dollars a year, then yes they would.

LOL.... You thought that Israel was in control of the border crossing.

Ok, so let's examine these facts :

Israel was in control of the crossing. Israel then talks about a new settlement and demands that Egypt takes control of the crossing. Egypt on at least one occasion has insisted that Gazans heed Israel's demands before Egypt will choose to open the border.

And then you have the fact that Israel uses every opportunity to claim that it cannot open the border because of the threat of arms being smuggled into Gaza, and yet somehow they trust Egypt enough to do the job for them?

So either, (A) Israel is dumb, or (B) Israel knows for damn sure that Egypt will tow the line.

Then you have the post that this originally goes back to. You claimed that because Egypt controls one of the borders, that there is no blockade against Gaza. This is a non-sequitur. The blockade exists. Two parties are ensuring the blockade exists, with one of the parties being in a subservient position to the other party.

You did not dispute the fact that a blockade is a just cause to declare a war. Thus I presume that you have no objection to the concept. Thus, Gaza did not provoke the war, but Israel provoked the war and organised a collaborator to assist them in doing so. And you took the bait hook line and sinker.

It might be interesting for you to know that Egypt is quite concerned at its own domestic situation regarding the latest outbreak of hostilities... seems Hosni Mubarak is getting a little nervous.

There is many organisations who will take responsibility for the people of Gaza. Egypt do not have to spent a cent on their Arab brothers.

But lets be honest, the real reason Egypt do not want to open the crossing is because they also do not agree with that Hamas is doing.

No, it's because they're wellpaid US stooges.
http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/features/egypt/

Except there was nor real blockade and also voting a terrorist group (who call for the destruction of Israel) into power is also not helpful.

Niether is it helpful that for the last 60 years, the state of Israel has continued an unending nationalist expansion campaign with the intent of gaining control of all of the land which was reportedly part of the biblical kingdom.

As an example the UN school bombings, till now Mark Regev refuses any international investigations ... the use of white phosphorus which Altiva Leibowitz side steps the questions when asked if they use it ... again, let an international party investigate these supposed war crimes ... and it might be that Hamas are using children as shields ... or it might just be Israel are murdering civilians ... why are they not allowing these investigations and prove to everyone there was Hamas militia in that school or they not using white phosphorus ... is that not a fair thing to want?

Well, this is an interesting story. Israel lied about the rocket fire near the buildings. They used footage that was over a year old to substantiate it. Then they claimed that people were shooting from the building, but the IDF was also eventually forced to withdraw that claim and admit that it was a lie.

Conclusion : Israel has yet again expressly targetted civilians without ANY conceivable military objective being in the area. Israel is a terrorist state. QED

That you do not realise is the Israel is the only party in this conflict who wants peace.

We've been through this. Your only claims that they wanted peace was that they were willing to agree to the roadmap talks. They have never offered anything which would lead to a viable Palestinian state, despite the fact that they have been in control over the occupied territories for the last 40 years. They did not offer the palestinians anything when they had the opportunity; thus they were not and remain not interested in peace.

You can spin it as you want to but Hamas will only be happy if Israel has been destroyed.

Actually, Hamas has said that it is willing to recognise an Israel that occupies the 1967 borders, and it said so shortly after its election as the legetimate representatives of the Palestinians. As a result of their being elected, they promised to end suicide bombings, which is something they have stuck by.

And quoting from the piece LoneGunman provided :

The asymmetry of conquest and terror is clear. Plan D is now "Operation Cast Lead," which is the unfinished "Operation Justified Vengeance." The latter was launched by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in 2001 when, with Bush's approval, he used F-16s against Palestinian towns and villages for the first time. In the same year, the authoritative Jane's Foreign Report disclosed that the Blair government had given Israel the "green light" to attack the West Bank after it was shown Israel's secret designs for a bloodbath. It was typical of New Labor Party's enduring, cringing complicity in Palestine's agony. However, the 2001 Israeli plan, reported Jane's, needed the "trigger" of a suicide bombing which would cause "numerous deaths and injuries [because] the 'revenge' factor is crucial." This would "motivate Israeli soldiers to demolish the Palestinians." What alarmed Sharon and the author of the plan, General Shaul Mofaz, the Israeli Chief of Staff, was a secret agreement between Yasser Arafat and Hamas to ban suicide attacks. On 23 November, 2001, Israeli agents assassinated the Hamas leader, Mahmud Abu Hunud, and got their "trigger"; the suicide attacks resumed in response to his killing.

Interested in peace? like hell.

The alternative being that Israel does nothing and Hamas strenghten their militants sufficiently to inflict even heavier casualties on Israel's population, which is obviously not a viable option.

Edit:
The fact that counter terrorist actions may inspire more to resort to terrorism is most likely been acknowledged by all parties, but I doubt that those in persuit of terrorists would allow this to deter them.
Lets consider the recent attacks on civilians in Mumbai. I am sure that India will hunt down the terrorists and their organisation, and have learn't not to trust Pakistan to deal with it. No doubt that they have considered the fact that it may incite more extremists, but this will not be a deciding factor in going after the terrorists.

So your argument is basically : Israel has violated the basic human rights of people for so long that they turned to violent resistance, and Israel must continue to violate their basic human rights lest they become strong enough to do something about it?

 

[BBSA]

Oh please... I don't praise anyone in this thread, I'm only posting here(putting up with your pro US/Israel military propaganda) because I care about innocent civilians being killed.

You do release that in a war there is propaganda from both sides, right?

You also do realise that terrorist(the people you support) kills innocent civilians, right?

 

[Xarog]

Israels aim was to stop the rockets fired at them, and they accomplished that. The same will happen in the current conflict.

Rubbish. No one in lebanon was firing rockets on a habitual basis into Israel. There was one rocket sortie which was a distraction for the kidnapping attempt. There were no more rockets until Israel started attacking Lebanon.

The actual aim of the Israelis was to destroy Hezbollah and possibly to regain control of southern Lebanon, and it has been publicly revealed (much like the current conflict), that Israel had been planning the campaign for over a year (in consultation with the US, even), and were only waiting for the right pretext to launch their attempt.

If you insist on playing the man instead of the ball I'll take the bait for once.

If you have read my posts and still think I vaguely support hamas and even more so the killing of a child then quite frankly you have sh^t for brains.

Just how sick are you.

Don't worry, everone knows what a digingenuous little #### he is.

You care about Jews? Show me one post that says that.

I'll go one better, I'll show you posts where you called on Israel to bomb kill and maim innocent civilians.

And actually, show me one post which shows you vaguely care about the palestinians.

Better than waiting for your buddies in Iran and Syria to do it first.

Yes, you advocate genocide, we know.

 

[BBSA]

No, but if the Palestinian leadership started doing whatever the Israelis/US wanted, despite widespread opposition by palestinians themselves, and if the US also paid the palestinian leadership several billion dollars a year, then yes they would.


Ok, so let's examine these facts :

Israel was in control of the crossing. Israel then talks about a new settlement and demands that Egypt takes control of the crossing. Egypt on at least one occasion has insisted that Gazans heed Israel's demands before Egypt will choose to open the border.

And then you have the fact that Israel uses every opportunity to claim that it cannot open the border because of the threat of arms being smuggled into Gaza, and yet somehow they trust Egypt enough to do the job for them?

So either, (A) Israel is dumb, or (B) Israel knows for damn sure that Egypt will tow the line.

Then you have the post that this originally goes back to. You claimed that because Egypt controls one of the borders, that there is no blockade against Gaza. This is a non-sequitur. The blockade exists. Two parties are ensuring the blockade exists, with one of the parties being in a subservient position to the other party.

You did not dispute the fact that a blockade is a just cause to declare a war. Thus I presume that you have no objection to the concept. Thus, Gaza did not provoke the war, but Israel provoked the war and organised a collaborator to assist them in doing so. And you took the bait hook line and sinker.

It might be interesting for you to know that Egypt is quite concerned at its own domestic situation regarding the latest outbreak of hostilities... seems Hosni Mubarak is getting a little nervous.


No, it's because they're wellpaid US stooges.
http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/features/egypt/


Niether is it helpful that for the last 60 years, the state of Israel has continued an unending nationalist expansion campaign with the intent of gaining control of all of the land which was reportedly part of the biblical kingdom.


Well, this is an interesting story. Israel lied about the rocket fire near the buildings. They used footage that was over a year old to substantiate it. Then they claimed that people were shooting from the building, but the IDF was also eventually forced to withdraw that claim and admit that it was a lie.

Conclusion : Israel has yet again expressly targetted civilians without ANY conceivable military objective being in the area. Israel is a terrorist state. QED


We've been through this. Your only claims that they wanted peace was that they were willing to agree to the roadmap talks. They have never offered anything which would lead to a viable Palestinian state, despite the fact that they have been in control over the occupied territories for the last 40 years. They did not offer the palestinians anything when they had the opportunity; thus they were not and remain not interested in peace.


Actually, Hamas has said that it is willing to recognise an Israel that occupies the 1967 borders, and it said so shortly after its election as the legetimate representatives of the Palestinians. As a result of their being elected, they promised to end suicide bombings, which is something they have stuck by.

OMG, you are not ignoring my posts any more, and you said you will stand by it

 

[Xarog]

You do release that in a war there is propaganda from both sides, right?

How true :

How Many Divisions?
The Blood-Stained Monster Enters Gaza

By URI AVNERY

Nearly seventy ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called “the Red Army” held the millions of the town’s inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.

Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.

This is the description that would now appear in the history books – if the Germans had won the war.

Absurd? No more than the daily descriptions in our media, which are being repeated ad nauseam: the Hamas terrorists use the inhabitants of Gaza as “hostages” and exploit the women and children as “human shields”, they leave us no alternative but to carry out massive bombardments, in which, to our deep sorrow, thousands of women, children and unarmed men are killed and injured.

* * *

IN THIS WAR, as in any modern war, propaganda plays a major role. The disparity between the forces, between the Israeli army - with its airplanes, gunships, drones, warships, artillery and tanks - and the few thousand lightly armed Hamas fighters, is one to a thousand, perhaps one to a million. In the political arena the gap between them is even wider. But in the propaganda war, the gap is almost infinite.

Almost all the Western media initially repeated the official Israeli propaganda line. They almost entirely ignored the Palestinian side of the story, not to mention the daily demonstrations of the Israeli peace camp. The rationale of the Israeli government (“The state must defend its citizens against the Qassam rockets”) has been accepted as the whole truth. The view from the other side, that the Qassams are a retaliation for the siege that starves the one and a half million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip, was not mentioned at all.

Only when the horrible scenes from Gaza started to appear on Western TV screens, did world public opinion gradually begin to change.

True, Western and Israeli TV channels showed only a tiny fraction of the dreadful events that appear 24 hours every day on Aljazeera’s Arabic channel, but one picture of a dead baby in the arms of its terrified father is more powerful than a thousand elegantly constructed sentences from the Israeli army spokesman. And that is what is decisive, in the end.

War – every war – is the realm of lies. Whether called propaganda or psychological warfare, everybody accepts that it is right to lie for one’s country. Anyone who speaks the truth runs the risk of being branded a traitor.

The trouble is that propaganda is most convincing for the propagandist himself. And after you convince yourself that a lie is the truth and falsification reality, you can no longer make rational decisions.

An example of this process surrounds the most shocking atrocity of this war so far: the shelling of the UN Fakhura school in Jabaliya refugee camp.

Immediately after the incident became known throughout the world, the army “revealed” that Hamas fighters had been firing mortars from near the school entrance. As proof they released an aerial photo which indeed showed the school and the mortar. But within a short time the official army liar had to admit that the photo was more than a year old. In brief: a falsification.

Later the official liar claimed that “our soldiers were shot at from inside the school”. Barely a day passed before the army had to admit to UN personnel that that was a lie, too. Nobody had shot from inside the school, no Hamas fighters were inside the school, which was full of terrified refugees.

But the admission made hardly any difference anymore. By that time, the Israeli public was completely convinced that “they shot from inside the school”, and TV announcers stated this as a simple fact.

So it went with the other atrocities. Every baby metamorphosed, in the act of dying, into a Hamas terrorist. Every bombed mosque instantly became a Hamas base, every apartment building an arms cache, every school a terror command post, every civilian government building a “symbol of Hamas rule”. Thus the Israeli army retained its purity as the “most moral army in the world”.

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