The Middle East Conflict Thread

Xarog

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
19,039
2/2

THE TRUTH is that the atrocities are a direct result of the war plan. This reflects the personality of Ehud Barak – a man whose way of thinking and actions are clear evidence of what is called “moral insanity”, a sociopathic disorder.

The real aim (apart from gaining seats in the coming elections) is to terminate the rule of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. In the imagination of the planners, Hamas is an invader which has gained control of a foreign country. The reality is, of course, entirely different.

The Hamas movement won the majority of the votes in the eminently democratic elections that took place in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip. It won because the Palestinians had come to the conclusion that Fatah’s peaceful approach had gained precisely nothing from Israel - neither a freeze of the settlements, nor release of the prisoners, nor any significant steps toward ending the occupation and creating the Palestinian state. Hamas is deeply rooted in the population – not only as a resistance movement fighting the foreign occupier, like the Irgun and the Stern Group in the past – but also as a political and religious body that provides social, educational and medical services.

From the point of view of the population, the Hamas fighters are not a foreign body, but the sons of every family in the Strip and the other Palestinian regions. They do not “hide behind the population”, the population views them as their only defenders.

Therefore, the whole operation is based on erroneous assumptions. Turning life into living hell does not cause the population to rise up against Hamas, but on the contrary, it unites behind Hamas and reinforces its determination not to surrender. The population of Leningrad did not rise up against Stalin, any more than the Londoners rose up against Churchill.

He who gives the order for such a war with such methods in a densely populated area knows that it will cause dreadful slaughter of civilians. Apparently that did not touch him. Or he believed that “they will change their ways” and “it will sear their consciousness”, so that in future they will not dare to resist Israel.

A top priority for the planners was the need to minimize casualties among the soldiers, knowing that the mood of a large part of the pro-war public would change if reports of such casualties came in. That is what happened in Lebanon Wars I and II.

This consideration played an especially important role because the entire war is a part of the election campaign. Ehud Barak, who gained in the polls in the first days of the war, knew that his ratings would collapse if pictures of dead soldiers filled the TV screens.

Therefore, a new doctrine was applied: to avoid losses among our soldiers by the total destruction of everything in their path. The planners were not only ready to kill 80 Palestinians to save one Israeli soldier, as has happened, but also 800. The avoidance of casualties on our side is the overriding commandment, which is causing record numbers of civilian casualties on the other side.

That means the conscious choice of an especially cruel kind of warfare – and that has been its Achilles heel.

A person without imagination, like Barak (his election slogan: “Not a Nice Guy, but a Leader”) cannot imagine how decent people around the world react to actions like the killing of whole extended families, the destruction of houses over the heads of their inhabitants, the rows of boys and girls in white shrouds ready for burial, the reports about people bleeding to death over days because ambulances are not allowed to reach them, the killing of doctors and medics on their way to save lives, the killing of UN drivers bringing in food. The pictures of the hospitals, with the dead, the dying and the injured lying together on the floor for lack of space, have shocked the world. No argument has any force next to an image of a wounded little girl lying on the floor, twisting with pain and crying out: “Mama! Mama!”

The planners thought that they could stop the world from seeing these images by forcibly preventing press coverage. The Israeli journalists, to their shame, agreed to be satisfied with the reports and photos provided by the Army Spokesman, as if they were authentic news, while they themselves remained miles away from the events. Foreign journalists were not allowed in either, until they protested and were taken for quick tours in selected and supervised groups. But in a modern war, such a sterile manufactured view cannot completely exclude all others – the cameras are inside the strip, in the middle of the hell, and cannot be controlled. Aljazeera broadcasts the pictures around the clock and reaches every home.

* * *

THE BATTLE for the TV screen is one of the decisive battles of the war.

Hundreds of millions of Arabs from Mauritania to Iraq, more than a billion Muslims from Nigeria to Indonesia see the pictures and are horrified. This has a strong impact on the war. Many of the viewers see the rulers of Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority as collaborators with Israel in carrying out these atrocities against their Palestinian brothers.

The security services of the Arab regimes are registering a dangerous ferment among the peoples. Hosny Mubarak, the most exposed Arab leader because of his closing of the Rafah crossing in the face of terrified refugees, started to pressure the decision-makers in Washington, who until that time had blocked all calls for a cease-fire. These began to understand the menace to vital American interests in the Arab world and suddenly changed their attitude – causing consternation among the complacent Israeli diplomats.

People with moral insanity cannot really understand the motives of normal people and must guess their reactions. “How many divisions has the Pope?” Stalin sneered. “How many divisions have people of conscience?” Ehud Barak may well be asking.

As it turns out, they do have some. Not numerous. Not very quick to react. Not very strong and organized. But at a certain moment, when the atrocities overflow and masses of protesters come together, that can decide a war.

* * *

THE FAILURE to grasp the nature of Hamas has caused a failure to grasp the predictable results. Not only is Israel unable to win the war, Hamas cannot lose it.

Even if the Israeli army were to succeed in killing every Hamas fighter to the last man, even then Hamas would win. The Hamas fighters would be seen as the paragons of the Arab nation, the heroes of the Palestinian people, models for emulation by every youngster in the Arab world. The West Bank would fall into the hands of Hamas like a ripe fruit, Fatah would drown in a sea of contempt, the Arab regimes would be threatened with collapse.

If the war ends with Hamas still standing, bloodied but unvanquished, in face of the mighty Israeli military machine, it will look like a fantastic victory, a victory of mind over matter.

What will be seared into the consciousness of the world will be the image of Israel as a blood-stained monster, ready at any moment to commit war crimes and not prepared to abide by any moral restraints. This will have severe consequences for our long-term future, our standing in the world, our chance of achieving peace and quiet.

In the end, this war is a crime against ourselves too, a crime against the State of Israel.

Uri Avnery is an Israeli writer and peace activist with Gush Shalom.
 

BBSA

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
21,904
How true :


1/2

Tell me do you still say that Israel is controlling the Gaza/Egypt border?

Seems like you were the one spreading propaganda!

As I said and proven there is no point in debating with you.
 

Xarog

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
19,039
Tell me do you still say that Israel is controlling the Gaza/Egypt border?

Seems like you were the one spreading propaganda!

As I said and proven there is no point in debating with you.
That's fine. You go right ahead and ignore my posts while I smash your claims to shreads. :)
 

Moederloos

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
12,476
That's fine. You go right ahead and ignore my posts while I smash your claims to shreads. :)

Well, if you are going to keep posting novellas, people will ignore them.
If I want to read a book, I will buy one. Keep it short and too the point.

My 2c.
 

BBSA

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
21,904
That's fine. You go right ahead and ignore my posts while I smash your claims to shreads. :)

LOL... most people ignore your posts. You did not even know who was in control of the Gaza/Egypt border crossing. You think you are any expert on the subject but you do not even know the basic facts. You have lost all credibility.
 

Xarog

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
19,039
Well, if you are going to keep posting novellas, people will ignore them.
If I want to read a book, I will buy one. Keep it short and too the point.

My 2c.
I keep my posts as concise as possible to prove the point I am making. I'm sorry if it involves a lot of fact checking and sourcing of claims, but that's just the way it is.
 

Ghazi

Banned
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
152
Oh please... I don't praise anyone in this thread, I'm only posting here(putting up with your pro US/Israel military propaganda) because I care about innocent civilians being killed.
The volume of hate that you expunge towards Israel sure gives one the impression that you have made up your mind that there is only one guilty part in the current middle east conflict.

Did you care about the innocent Israeli civilians that were killed in urban areas by Hamas militants rockets before the current confilct?
 

Xarog

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
19,039
LOL... most people ignore your posts. You did not even know who was in control of the Gaza/Egypt border crossing. You think you are any expert on the subject but you do not even know the basic facts. You have lost all credibility.
Only people who ignore my posts are the people who haven't bothered to check their facts beyond cursory checks. I've had a few PMs already by people who say it's nice to see someone actually taking the time to debunk the crud that's posted here, and supplying links to prove the claims, so I know I'm not being ignored. :)

As for the crossing, being wrong about it was not germane to the point, and it was right until recently, everyone is human, and it's a far cry from the dozen or so times you have been wrong. If one's view is discounted from a single mistake, you've been knocked out at least 10 times already. So again, nice try, but no cigar. ;)
 

Xarog

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
19,039
The volume of hate that you expunge towards Israel sure gives one the impression that you have made up your mind that there is only one guilty part in the current middle east conflict.
There are several parties guilty for several things. It's only the pro-israeli fundamentalists who seem to think that Israel can do no wrong.
 

daveza

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 5, 2004
Messages
47,671
The volume of hate that you expunge towards Israel sure gives one the impression that you have made up your mind that there is only one guilty part in the current middle east conflict.

There are no innocent parties in the conflict, neither hamas nor the idf.

However one side is branded as a ' terrorist ' organisation, the other supposedly an honorable respected democracy.

Which side would you expect to hold the moral high ground?

Rockets which have killed 20 odd in 8 years vs fighter bombers, alleged war crimes, phosphorus bombs, 250 dead children, an information blackout, tanks, massive civilian casualties....

Israel will not destroy hamas ever. Hamas will never destroy Israel.

Nobody expects anything from ' terrorists ' but we expect so much more than the wanton butchery currently evident from Israel.
 

Ghazi

Banned
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
152
Israel will not destroy hamas ever. Hamas will never destroy Israel.
I also doubt that Israel will destroy Hamas, but they may be hoping for Hamas to declare themselves the victors of the battle, just like Hezhbolla claim to have won the war in 2006, and a similar peace (no rocket fire) will follow.
I'm sure Israel will not contest the claims of victory, as we note with Hezbolla's claims of winning the 2006 war went uncontested.
 

Xarog

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
19,039
I also doubt that Israel will destroy Hamas, but they may be hoping for Hamas to declare themselves the victors of the battle, just like Hezhbolla claim to have won the war in 2006, and a similar peace (no rocket fire) will follow.
I'm sure Israel will not contest the claims of victory, as we note with Hezbolla's claims of winning the 2006 war went uncontested.
That's largely because it's quite evident that the 2006 invasion of Lebanon was a geopolitical disaster for Israel. I suspect the current invasion of Gaza will end similarly.
 

JK8

Banned
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
14,105
Why does Hamas have such crappy rockets and bad aim?
Oish....

Anyone think we should send our Israeli diplomat packing?
 

BBSA

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
21,904
Only people who ignore my posts are the people who haven't bothered to check their facts beyond cursory checks. I've had a few PMs already by people who say it's nice to see someone actually taking the time to debunk the crud that's posted here, and supplying links to prove the claims, so I know I'm not being ignored. :)

As for the crossing, being wrong about it was not germane to the point, and it was right until recently, everyone is human, and it's a far cry from the dozen or so times you have been wrong. If one's view is discounted from a single mistake, you've been knocked out at least 10 times already. So again, nice try, but no cigar. ;)

Stop trying so hard, I'm not going to take the bait.
 

nivek

Honorary Master
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Messages
10,271
Why does Hamas have such crappy rockets and bad aim?
Oish....

Anyone think we should send our Israeli diplomat packing?

sorry to burst your bubble but it wont be improving anytime sooner, since their rocket designer is now dust
 

Xarog

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
19,039
Stop trying so hard, I'm not going to take the bait.
There is no bait. You make false claims, I refute them. I tried to get you to address problems with your own viewpoint, you refused. When I saw it was pointless, I returned to deconstructing your arguments, point by point.

As it stands, you have not bothered to address the fact that Egypt is almost certainly collaborating with Israel over the Rafah crossing. You have not bothered to address the fact that Israel, who is security paranoid, apparently entrusts Egypt with their own nation's wellbeing. While you fail to address these points, your argument remains fundamentally flawed, and you are wrong.

So you have a choice : You can either :

1. Ignore my posts.
2. Respond to my posts and discuss the merits of the argument.
3. Ignore my posts, but still respond repeatedly how you refuse to take the bait (which would strike me as taking the bait if there was such a thing).

My order of preference is 2, 1 and then lastly 3.

So which is it going to be?
 
Top