The Middle East Conflict Thread

[BBSA]

No argument there.

So help us then to stop terrorism.

 

[Vitowe]

In reply to:
Originally Posted by adamr
"so why dont they just do that nuke the whole place, kill all Palestinians ... once and for all ..."

Anyone with an opinion like you 2 have should not be allowed to take part in intelligent discussions. Your solution reminds me of Hitler's final solution. people like you who have no regard or are just too stupid to see how much human life is being wasted in gaza now.

During this whole conflict that has been going on for many years both parties share guilt but at the moment what Israel is doing are War crimes, they are attacking a people with no army to defend themselves , will not let enough aid in and have refused to let the women and children out. This is plain murder bordering genocide and if you are too simple to see that you do not deserve to be part of this discussion.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2452119,00.html
Does this story not remind you of something ? Maybe there is a reason why even Nelson Mandela has called Israel an apharteid regime.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2452141,00.html
And this story, well make your own opinion.

Bottom line is if you stand by your beliefs blindly (pro-america/israel ) you are no better than any fanatic of any sort.

Grow up already! I am amazed at the patience of the Israelis. Hounded and threatened by this bunch of pajama clad fanatics for years and still they ***** foot around putting an end to this fiasco by using as little force as they can while the rabit terrorists shield themelves behind their own civilian population. Level Gaza I say, and turn the place into a beach resort. That way it will have some usefull purpose.

I see there is a new local fanatical campaign rearing its ugly head in the Cape, calling itself "We are all Gaza". "We are all Gagga", would have been more to the point.

And Yes, I am fanatical about putting down fanatics. Or do you have a better suggestion as to how to deal with them?

Don't quote Mandela to me, in an attempt to support your cause. The utterances of a has been terrorist, ring hollow in my ears.

 

[JHatman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

"Although Israel has been considering a truce and peace negotiation, both the United States and Israel consider Hamas an Islamic terrorist organization and the two sides have difficulties negotiating and communicating. According to an Israeli source, Operation Cast Lead was intended to stop Hamas from firing rockets into Israeli civilian areas and to weaken its control so that the more moderate Palestinian movement Fatah can "reassert control in Gaza, clearing the way in the future for a return to serious peace negotiations."

Hamas have made their intentions clear...the destruction and death for innocent Israeli's and Palestinians. They've outlived their purpose and need to be cut out like a tumour before any real effort towards peace can begin.

 

[Alan]

Will Arabs learn war lesson?

Good Question?

A survey done after WW2 on the effect of strategic bombing made this interesting claim. " These attacks left the German people with a solid lesson in the disadvantages of war, it was a terrible lesson, conceibaly that lesson, both in Germany and abroad could be the most lasting single affect of the air war".

Hopefully now the people in Gaza have learned the same terrible lesson. A lesson that would have a long lasting affect on them. If there is any chance of peace it's a lesson they'd have to learn

Mediation with Mugabe is like trying to take the bone from a pitbulls mouth.

So you can't negotiate with mad Bob but you can with people who strap bombs to kids.

Senior Hamas officials in Gaza are hiding out in a "bunker" built by Israel, intelligence officials suspect: Many are believed to be in the basements of the Shifa Hospital complex in Gaza City, which was refurbished during Israel's occupation of the Gaza Strip.

Shifa, the coastal strip's largest hospital, was built while Gaza was under Egyptian rule, before 1967.


During the mid-1980s the building underwent massive refurbishment as part of a showcase project to improve the living conditions of residents.

Millions were invested in the project, which was overseen by Shmuel Goren, the coordinator for activities in the territories at the time.

The Israeli civil administration in the territories constructed the hospital complex's Building Number 2, which has a large cement basement that housed the hospital's laundry and various administrative services

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054569.html

 

[krycor]

Is this future justification for an attack on the hospital??

 

[krycor]

No, Hamas is calling for the extermination of Israel.

Recently? They have stopped doing that since 2005/6

 

[krycor]

If I was armed, I'd certainly not be waiting to see how much sharpening of the butter knife he's done on the kurbstone.

So lemme get this straight, you would KILL the guy instead of just disabling(in terms of current ability to do harm) him? Would you stay there till police come and haul u away to prison?

 

[krycor]

See that terrorism has done. You always say Israels actions create hate but it goes both ways.

I see no problem with this statement, it goes without saying.

But to see Israel as being the goody two shoes in this and past conflicts is not true at all.

 

[STS]

Its just interesting you reply to the threads that are most "controversial" thats why i ask...

whats wrong with my wording?

why is it interesting that i reply to the topics i'm interested in? should i go post in other discussions to balance it out and get my posts to 2000?

everything you say hints to negativity

 

[STS]

"****it"

 

[STS]

You are the idiot, You are the one with hate speech, but it just reinforces the fact that Israel must continue with the offensive and not stop.
There is only one way to deal with terrorists and people like you.
You have a big mouth and are probably one of those telephone tough guys.
Anyway I will leave it there.
I am just so happy that your kind is being dealt with.

what kind is that?

 

[marine1]

what kind is that?

The kind that posts hate speech as he did yesterday. Or didnt you see it?

 

[Moederloos]

So lemme get this straight, you would KILL the guy instead of just disabling(in terms of current ability to do harm) him? Would you stay there till police come and haul u away to prison?

You are confusing justifiable law with SA's bastardization of laws that will not even allow policemen to fire in self defense.

In any normal society, it is perfectly permissible to act in self defense when someone assaults you with a weapon - be it a manufactured gun, or a homemade shiv.

 

[BBSA]

Recently? They have stopped doing that since 2005/6

So, what exactly does Hamas want?

 

[Xarog]

http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/280853.php
http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/280998.php
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32393_A_Staged_Scene_in_a_Gaza_Hospital

Interesting little exercise.

G26

Ok, so it's not the other pictures that had surfaced last week, which are about the only photos of dead people I've seen.

I will say that CNN, like any news organisation could well end up reporting false information. News stations are not infallible, they do get tricked, and it happens to all of them.

HOWEVER, nothing about those videos being faked in any way invalidates what has been happening here. Civilians HAVE been dying, and Israel has expressly targetted civilians and UN installations where there was absolutely no legitimate military reason to do so.

Will Arabs learn war lesson?

Good Question?

That article is the biggest load of dogturd that has been served up so far. To claim that Hamas is close to destruction is absolutely preposterous given the current situation. There is no ways on God's/Yaweh's/Allah's/FSM's green Earth that Israel would be considering a cease fire if they thought they had a reasonable shot at eliminating Hamas.

So help us then to stop terrorism.

You do that by : Allowing people their basic human rights. Until Israel offers the Palestinians a settlement which includes the space for a viable nation, with the ability to control their own shores and own borders, along the right with freedom of movement in within their own territories, along with the right to govern themselves without outside interference.

UNTIL that happens, terrorism will continue, no matter what you try short of actually committing genocide.

Give people something to live for and then maybe they'll see the point of ceasing an armed struggle against those who make their lives unlivable.

Grow up already! I am amazed at the patience of the Israelis. Hounded and threatened by this bunch of pajama clad fanatics for years and still they ***** foot around putting an end to this fiasco by using as little force as they can while the rabit terrorists shield themelves behind their own civilian population. Level Gaza I say, and turn the place into a beach resort. That way it will have some usefull purpose.

I see there is a new local fanatical campaign rearing its ugly head in the Cape, calling itself "We are all Gaza". "We are all Gagga", would have been more to the point.

And Yes, I am fanatical about putting down fanatics. Or do you have a better suggestion as to how to deal with them?

Don't quote Mandela to me, in an attempt to support your cause. The utterances of a has been terrorist, ring hollow in my ears.

So nice to see you advocating the slaughter of 1.5 million people.

And what a noted lack of censure from the pro-israeli camp yet again. You guys moan that the muslims never ever criticise each other, but you're all just as bad as they are.

A survey done after WW2 on the effect of strategic bombing made this interesting claim. " These attacks left the German people with a solid lesson in the disadvantages of war, it was a terrible lesson, conceibaly that lesson, both in Germany and abroad could be the most lasting single affect of the air war".

Hopefully now the people in Gaza have learned the same terrible lesson. A lesson that would have a long lasting affect on them. If there is any chance of peace it's a lesson they'd have to learn

Firstly, the US went to great pains to wage psychological warfare on the Germans after the end of WW2, so it is of little surprise that they became anti-war in general (which is quite ironic seeing how you've criticised them for their peaceful stance in the past )

Secondly, you're implying that Palestinians have to first give up their right to self-determination before there can be peace. You are demanding that they cease struggling and ONLY then will negotiations begin towards a settlement, without any guarantee of a just and equitable solution. Well, sorry to say but no sane human being on the planet would EVER accept such conditions.

So, what exactly does Hamas want?

A peaceful solution which grants the Palestinians the right to self-determination and the means with which to excercise that right, which all humans beings by nature of their status AS human being are entitled to.

 

[Xarog]

Sirrahs Garyvdh, BBSA, JHatman, Alan, marine1, Glock26. Pedar :

It is your "side" which has routinely resorted to ad-hominems instead of reasoned arguments.

It is your side which is unwilling to face facts.

It is your side which generally calls for and supports death, destruction and murder.

I have made several posts which show that Israel is a warmongering nation which has deliberately attacked civilians on a scale that Hamas could only ever dream of achieving. You collectively ignored it. I have shown how no people could ever accept the kind of peace that Israel has offered, and you ignored it.

I showed that Israel has absolutely no geniune interest in peace, but rather that it goes through the motions simply because it's good PR. Again, no one raised an argument against it.

The simple fact of the matter is that collectively, your position is in disrepute. You do not discuss matters in good faith, you resort to insults, and you generally hold a position which is morally reprehensible.

You claim that the argument is going in circles, however it is you, collectively, who have made it a habit to ignore any and all posts which you find inconvenient, especially when they fatally refute the legitimacy of your positions.

There is no stand-off here. Your position has been systematically destroyed with well-reasoned and thoughtful posts and you did not even raise a protest.

So please, please, do not discredit yourselves further by claiming that myself and others are the ones which hold an untenable position. If that were the case you would have had no trouble in finding sources which refuted the majority of my claims.

 

[Xarog]

And yet more reporting showing how morally bankrupt and disingenous the Israeli government is :

Seeing Through the Lies
The Facts About Hamas and the War on Gaza

By NORMAN FINKELSTEIN

The record is fairly clear. You can find it on the Israeli website, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. Israel broke the ceasefire by going into the Gaza and killing six or seven Palestinian militants. At that point—and now I’m quoting the official Israeli website—Hamas retaliated or, in retaliation for the Israeli attack, then launched the missiles.

Now, as to the reason why, the record is fairly clear as well. According to Ha’aretz, Defense Minister Barak began plans for this invasion before the ceasefire even began. In fact, according to yesterday’s Ha’aretz, the plans for the invasion began in March. And the main reasons for the invasion, I think, are twofold. Number one; to enhance what Israel calls its deterrence capacity, which in layman’s language basically means Israel’s capacity to terrorize the region into submission. After their defeat in July 2006 in Lebanon, they felt it important to transmit the message that Israel is still a fighting force, still capable of terrorizing those who dare defy its word.

And the second main reason for the attack is because Hamas was signaling that it wanted a diplomatic settlement of the conflict along the June 1967 border. That is to say, Hamas was signaling they had joined the international consensus, they had joined most of the international community, overwhelmingly the international community, in seeking a diplomatic settlement. And at that point, Israel was faced with what Israelis call a Palestinian peace offensive. And in order to defeat the peace offensive, they sought to dismantle Hamas.

As was documented in the April 2008 issue of Vanity Fair by the writer David Rose, basing himself on internal US documents, it was the United States in cahoots with the Palestinian Authority and Israel which were attempting a putsch on Hamas, and Hamas preempted the putsch. That, too, is no longer debatable or no longer a controversial claim.

The issue is can it rule in Gaza if Israel maintains a blockade and prevents economic activity among the Palestinians. The blockade, incidentally, was implemented before Hamas came to power. The blockade doesn’t even have anything to do with Hamas. The blockade came to—there were Americans who were sent over, in particular James Wolfensohn, to try to break the blockade after Israel redeployed its troops in Gaza.

The problem all along has been that Israel doesn’t want Gaza to develop, and Israel doesn’t want to resolve diplomatically the conflict, both the leadership in Damascus and the leadership in the Gaza have repeatedly made statements they’re willing to settle the conflict in the June 1967 border. The record is fairly clear. In fact, it’s unambiguously clear.

Every year, the United Nations General Assembly votes on a resolution entitled “Peaceful Settlement of the Palestine Question.” And every year the vote is the same: it’s the whole world on one side; Israel, the United States and some South Sea atolls and Australia on the other side. The vote this past year was 164-to-7. Every year since 1989—in 1989, the vote was 151-to-3, the whole world on one side, the United States, Israel and the island state of Dominica on the other side.

We have the Arab League, all twenty-two members of the Arab League, favoring a two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. We have the Palestinian Authority favoring that two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. We now have Hamas favoring that two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. The one and only obstacle is Israel, backed by the United States. That’s the problem.

Well, the record shows that Hamas wanted to continue the ceasefire, but only on condition that Israel eases the blockade. Long before Hamas began the retaliatory rocket attacks on Israel, Palestinians were facing a humanitarian crisis in Gaza because of the blockade. The former High Commissioner for Human Rights, Mary Robinson, described what was going on in Gaza as a destruction of a civilization. This was during the ceasefire period.

What does the record show? The record shows for the past twenty or more years, the entire international community has sought to settle the conflict in the June 1967 border with a just resolution of the refugee question. Are all 164 nations of the United Nations the rejectionists? And are the only people in favor of peace the United States, Israel, Nauru, Palau, Micronesia, the Marshall Islands and Australia? Who are the rejectionists? Who’s opposing a peace?

The record shows that in every crucial issue raised at Camp David, then under the Clinton parameters, and then in Taba, at every single point, all the concessions came from the Palestinians. Israel didn’t make any concessions. Every concession came from the Palestinians. The Palestinians have repeatedly expressed a willingness to settle the conflict in accordance with international law.

The law is very clear. July 2004, the highest judicial body in the world, the International Court of Justice, ruled Israel has no title to any of the West Bank and any of Gaza. They have no title to Jerusalem. Arab East Jerusalem, according to the highest judicial body in the world, is occupied Palestinian territory. The International Court of Justice ruled all the settlements, all the settlements in the West Bank, are illegal under international law.

Now, the important point is, on all those questions, the Palestinians were willing to make concessions. They made all the concessions. Israel didn’t make any concessions.

I think it’s fairly clear what needs to happen. Number one, the United States and Israel have to join the rest of the international community, have to abide by international law. I don’t think international law should be trivialized. I think it’s a serious issue. If Israel is in defiance of international law, it should be called into account, just like any other state in the world.

Mr. Obama has to level with the American people. He has to be honest about what is the main obstacle to resolving the conflict. It’s not Palestinian rejectionism. It’s the refusal of Israel, backed by the United States government, to abide by international law, to abide by the opinion of the international community.

And the main challenge for all of us as Americans is to see through the lies.
Norman Finkelstein is author of five books, including Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict, Beyond Chutzpah and The Holocaust Industry, which have been translated into more than 40 foreign editions. He is the son of Holocaust survivors. This article is an edited extract of the views of Finkelstein given at DemocracyNow.org. His website is www.NormanFinkelstein.com

But don't worry, Israel wants peace!

Yeah, right.

 

[BBSA]

But don't worry, Israel wants peace!

Amen to that!

 

[Alan]

Secondly, you're implying that Palestinians have to first give up their right to self-determination before there can be peace. You are demanding that they cease struggling and ONLY then will negotiations begin towards a settlement, without any guarantee of a just and equitable solution. Well, sorry to say but no sane human being on the planet would EVER accept such conditions.

Quds force must be paying overtime

ROFL they had self determination in Gaza for around 3 years already.

Let me help you out here

Election

the act of selecting someone or something; the exercise of deliberate choice

Power of choosing; free will; liberty to choose or act

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/election

A history and a English language lesson. No need to thank me.

 

[BBSA]

So, what exactly does Hamas want?

From Hamas Chater:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it. (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up.

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

I rest my case.