The Middle East Conflict Thread

[JK8]

This Friday, during mosquations, Israel will take out Iran's nuclear facilities ...

The incoming US president will face problems, problems, problems.


Source

Lol why now?

 

[Xarog]

Just because you are too brain dead to actually manage to build a rocket that can hit something, does not change the fact that this was an attack on civilian centres.

Israel had no problem with mining most of southern Lebanon through shelling Lebanon with cluster bombs. The choice of trajectories were chosen specifically to increase the "dud rate" which in turn meant that the unexploded bomblets were just waiting to be accidentally disturbed by otherwise oblivious Lebanese civilians.

I have not seen you decry such blatant attacks on civilian centres. If you really wish me to believe that you geniunely oppose attacks against civilians, decrying this heinous act by Israel would be the perfect place to start.

 

[LazyLion]

You should be embarrased for yourself. Within South Africa, law courses teach *South African* law. By suggesting that I go and study it, you can only reasonably mean that I should study *South African* law. Each constitution and each parliamentary structure is unique (although there do tend to be some similarities among civil law legel systems and similarities with common law legal systems).
But even so, let's for the sake of argument assume that there is only one kind of constitutional law, and only one kind of parliamentary law. What on EARTH does it have to do with this discussion?

Hmmm, when I studied Constitutional law under Tony Leon at Wits in the early 1990s, we studied ALL forms of constitutions (including American and English), not just South Africa. so you are speaking plain bull. How many law courses have you attended?
Of course there is not only one kind... you show your ignorance again. But they do have similarities in structure and purpose. And it is possible to study them under one umbrella.
It has to do with the discussion, sorry you forgot, already because we were talking about Hamas ignoring their own founding documents and charter. In other words, they like you, are completely ignorant of how these things operate and what they are there for. just one more example that they have no idea what they are doing (or are being deceptive).

 

[Alan]

Translation : They voted for the wrong people, so now everyone is justified for bombing the crap out of them

Just ask the Germans

. Conclusion : They were never allowed their basic human right of self-determination. The conflict will continue on until such a time as that basic human right is recognised and the Palestinians are allowed to excercise it.

Yes and Hamas wasn't voted in by the people . Basic human rights respected by Hamas ROFL. Sounds like the nut Sufferwell alluded too about the Shia extremists in Iran bringing "a desperately-needed model of humane governance ". Oh wait stoning girls is your idea of humane reasonable governance

As for me failing, well... Let's just say I look forward to the next time you put your foot in your mouth by responding to my posts. It's always a pleasure to deconstruct your fallacious logic line by line, and exposing how indefensible your position really is.

Says the guy who defends not only oppressive, backward, genocidal extremists who strap bombs to kids but their fellow brethren in Iran who hang homosexuals from trees in town centers or Iraq where they remotely detonate bombs strapped to mentally impaired woman. Yes clearly you're not defending the indefensible.

No, actually it's about the nationalistic zionists and their quest for Lebensraum.

God forbid the Palestinians give up this genocidal urge of destroying them and instead focus on developing a reasonable state to co exist peacefully with them. That would be selling out like those western stooges Egypt and Jordan. Like I said you have no interest in the plight of the Palestinians. they're just a useful tool for your "anti west' ideological stupidity

That's from November last year. Hamas has repeatedly stated that they are willing to negotiate a settlement based on the 1967 borders. Israel couldn't care less. Conclusion : Israel does not want peace.

Bull****. Israel co exists peacefully with Egypt and Jordan. They even gave back the land they won after 1967 war. So it's a fact they're willing to negotiate and give up land but only with reasonable representatives that respect their right to exist and not the lunatic death cults that get you all aroused

 

[LazyLion]

Sorry, but first the world has to recognise their right to self-determination, before that can happen. While their right to self-determination is being denied, violent resistance is their only effective recourse.

As I have pointed out, the Palestinians were innocent bystanders in both the 1948 and 1967 wars. Israel had no justification for denying them the opportunity to develop the neccessary governmental structures so that they could become an autonomous state. And yet they did, because Zionism as a creed demands that the borders of Israel be no less than the borders as described by the biblical kingdom. The result of this denial is what *eventually* led to violent resistance. For there to be peace, this denial has to end.

And to repeat yet again, FOR the record, It is only the and Israel that have a problem with a Palestinian state existing alongside Israel according to the 1967 borders. Hamas is OK with it, the PLO is OK with it, the Palestinians are OK with it, Russia, China, South Africa... everyone is OK with it. Who's really the party in denial here?

Russia, China, South Africa?? Wow, yeah... they all have sterling records when it comes to Human Rights abuses! Don't make me puke!

self-determination? WTH? Either they are a people or they are not? Do they have collective Identity Crisis? If they are a people or a nation, then let them act like one. Nobody is stopping them from doing that.

And to repeat yet again, FOR the record... until the Palestinian people stand up for themselves and elect leaders who are not terrorists, the world is not going to pay them heed. That is all I have to say on the matter.

 

[Moederloos]

I have not seen you decry such blatant attacks on civilian centres. If you really wish me to believe that you geniunely oppose attacks against civilians, decrying this heinous act by Israel would be the perfect place to start.

I do not have to - that is the point.
The people crying over collateral damage in Gaza are the ones being two-faced. As far as I am concerned:
a) Collateral damage is just that - hide behind a civilian, and the civilian gets hurt, tough. It is sad, and regrettable, but that is the way it is.
b) Those who decry civilian deaths should also decry the launching of rockets against Israeli civilians. Or they are two-faced.

So, to repeat - civilian collateral damage is sad and regrettable. But what else must Israel do? What would any other nation do? Leave the terrorists be? Doubt it.

Those who whine about Gaza civilian deaths, need also then take exception to rocket launches against Israeli towns - and Israel is not storing munitions in houses in Sederot.

 

[LazyLion]

Israel had no problem with mining most of southern Lebanon through shelling Lebanon with cluster bombs. The choice of trajectories were chosen specifically to increase the "dud rate" which in turn meant that the unexploded bomblets were just waiting to be accidentally disturbed by otherwise oblivious Lebanese civilians.

I have not seen you decry such blatant attacks on civilian centres. If you really wish me to believe that you geniunely oppose attacks against civilians, decrying this heinous act by Israel would be the perfect place to start.

We will start decrying that, IF it is true, when you start decrying the rocket launches and suicide attacks.

But the actual heart of the matter is that you sympathise with those terrorist acts... so why do you think we should denounce Israel for defending itself?

 

[Xarog]

Hmmm, when I studied Constitutional law under Tony Leon at Wits in the early 1990s, we studied ALL forms of constitutions (including American and English), not just South Africa.

Then you should know that there is such a thing as constitutions which are flexible, constitutions which are not entrenched, and consitutions which are not supreme.

Just like South Africa's 1983 constitution, which had no more force of law than any other law passed by the South African Parliament (which was operating under a Westminster system at the time.)

so you are speaking plain bull.

Ok, so maybe some universities do try to study other constitutions. However, UNISA does not.

How many law courses have you attended?

Enough.

Of course there is not only one kind... you show your ignorance again.

I show my ignorance by stating something you agree with?

It has to do with the discussion, sorry you forgot, already because we were talking about Hamas ignoring their own founding documents and charter. In other words, they like you, are completely ignorant of how these things operate and what they are there for. just one more example that they have no idea what they are doing (or are being deceptive).

Looks like you need to revisit those lectures you went through with Tony Leon, because you just discounted flexible constitutions which are not supreme. And this is besides the fact that Hamas is an organisation with voluntary attendance, and they as an organisation can bloody-well change their own rules as they see fit. The Hamas charter is not part of Palestinian law any more than the ANC's Freedom Charter is part of South African law.

But thanks for giving me the opportunity to show everyone yet again just how wrong you are.

And P.S. still waiting for you to respond to the other points I raised in my post. I take that to mean that you are no longer contesting that your own logic justifies Hamas or whoever else from taking action to destroy Israel.

Just ask the Germans

Germans didn't get attacked for voting someone into power. Fail.

Yes and Hamas wasn't voted in by the people . Basic human rights respected by Hamas ROFL. Sounds like the nut Sufferwell alluded too about the Shia extremists in Iran bringing "a desperately-needed model of humane governance ". Oh wait stoning girls is your idea of humane reasonable governance

I never once claimed that Hamas ruled humanely. Niether would I have claimed that the ANC ruled humanely back when they were a resistance/terrorist organisation. However, in the process of the negotiations in the 1990s, the ANC became far more moderate and did finally agree to one of the most progressive constitutions in human existence today. It is sad that they have not paid closer attention to the constitutional principles since they've been elected, but it is still a DRAMATIC improvement from an organisation that used to bomb people. If the ANC can change, Hamas can too.

Says the guy who defends not only oppressive, backward, genocidal extremists who strap bombs to kids but their fellow brethren in Iran who hang homosexuals from trees in town centers or Iraq where they remotely detonate bombs strapped to mentally impaired woman. Yes clearly you're not defending the indefensible.

I've never defended Iran's domestic policies.

But I don't expect you to understand that, because you're blinkered by "for us or against us" rhetoric.

God forbid the Palestinians give up this genocidal urge of destroying them and instead focus on developing a reasonable state to co exist peacefully with them. That would be selling out like those western stooges Egypt and Jordan. Like I said you have no interest in the plight of the Palestinians. they're just a useful tool for your "anti west' ideological stupidity

Ummm. The palestinians, Hamas including, are perfectly willing to exist alongside Israel peacefully, as long as Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, which is essential for the existence of a Palestinian state in the first place. But hey, don't let reality interfere with your delusions.

Bull****. Israel co exists peacefully with Egypt and Jordan. They even gave back the land they won after 1967 war. So it's a fact they're willing to negotiate and give up land but only with reasonable representatives that respect their right to exist and not the lunatic death cults that get you all aroused

They only negotiate after they get their arses kicked. Egypt and Jordan geniunely surprised them in the Yom Kippur war and Israel was in no position to take those territories back by force. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to point that out.

Russia, China, South Africa?? Wow, yeah... they all have sterling records when it comes to Human Rights abuses! Don't make me puke!

Point being even the most dastardly of regimes can see the sense in this agreement. (Shall I mention the other 100 odd recognised independent nations? UK/France/Germany/Italy/Netherlands/Sweden/Canada, etc. ?)

self-determination? WTH? Either they are a people or they are not? Do they have collective Identity Crisis? If they are a people or a nation, then let them act like one. Nobody is stopping them from doing that.

Israel is stopping them from acting like a nation by denying them the means to set up a bona fide independent state.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Westbankjan06.jpg

How the hell are you supposed to create an independent territory when an occupying power has settlements all over the damn place!?

WHY, if Israel is interested in peace, is it stealing Palestinian land?

And to repeat yet again, FOR the record... until the Palestinian people stand up for themselves and elect leaders who are not terrorists, the world is not going to pay them heed. That is all I have to say on the matter.

Why didn't Israel help them set up an independent state 40 years ago? The Palestinians have absolutely nothing except misery to gain by not resisting.

 

[BBSA]

self-determination? WTH? Either they are a people or they are not? Do they have collective Identity Crisis? If they are a people or a nation, then let them act like one. Nobody is stopping them from doing that.

Correct, the Palestinians is not a nation, hence they do NOT have an automatic right to self-determination.

 

[Xarog]

I do not have to - that is the point.
The people crying over collateral damage in Gaza are the ones being two-faced. As far as I am concerned:
a) Collateral damage is just that - hide behind a civilian, and the civilian gets hurt, tough. It is sad, and regrettable, but that is the way it is.
b) Those who decry civilian deaths should also decry the launching of rockets against Israeli civilians. Or they are two-faced.

So, to repeat - civilian collateral damage is sad and regrettable. But what else must Israel do? What would any other nation do? Leave the terrorists be? Doubt it.

Those who whine about Gaza civilian deaths, need also then take exception to rocket launches against Israeli towns - and Israel is not storing munitions in houses in Sederot.

We will start decrying that, IF it is true, when you start decrying the rocket launches and suicide attacks.

But the actual heart of the matter is that you sympathise with those terrorist acts... so why do you think we should denounce Israel for defending itself?

This was not some simple attack that caused "collatoral damage". It was a deliberate attempt to mine an area after the cease-fire agreements had been finalised and a definite time for the cease-fire had been agreed upon.

What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

In addition, soldiers in IDF artillery units testified that the army used phosphorous shells during the war, widely forbidden by international law. According to their claims, the vast majority of said explosive ordinance was fired in the final 10 days of the war.
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The rocket unit commander stated that Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) platforms were heavily used in spite of the fact that they were known to be highly inaccurate.

ISRAEL EXPRESSELY CHOSE FIRING PATTERNS TO MAXIMISE THE RATES OF DUD BOMBS, SO AS TO MAXIMISE THE NUMBER OF UNEXPLODED BOMBLETS ON THE GROUND!

Sources :
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5299938.stm
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7937
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2007/02/08/israel-misused-cluster-bombs-us-delivered-last-august/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...is-accused-of-targeting-civilians-414077.html
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=37519
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2006/9/28/183133/378

There was NO legitimate military reason for this act. It was a DELIBERATE move against Lebanese civilians to "punish" them for not rising up against Hezbollah!

 

[Xarog]

Correct, the Palestinians is not a nation, hence they have NOT a automatic right to self-determination.

Incorrect. People have the right to self-determination. Nations do not have the right to self-determination.

Thus, the palestinians, AS people, have the right to live within a nation where they can give expression to this basic human right. Israel, as occupier of the occupied territories, violates this right.

For the record, I would be really pleased if Israel would just annex Gaza and the West Bank and just give all the Palestinians citizenship as Israeli Arabs.

 

[JHatman]

For the record, I would be really pleased if Israel would just annex Gaza and the West Bank and just give all the Palestinians citizenship as Israeli Arabs.

That would be the best for both parties. But I'm in two minds to whether that would satisfy Islamic fundamentalists. Would they change their tune or simply make more unrealistic demands, its like flipping a coin I guess we'll never know until Israel takes that first step.

At any rate, the whole thing must be done legally.

 

[Moederloos]

This was not some simple attack that caused "collatoral damage". It was a deliberate attempt to mine an area after the cease-fire agreements had been finalised and a definite time for the cease-fire had been agreed upon.

(etc...)

STILL not the point.
Those who whinge about civilian casualties should be whinging about the attack by Arab nations on Israel. Or they are showing themselves to be two-faced about it.

 

[Xarog]

STILL not the point.
Those who whinge about civilian casualties should be whinging about the attack by Arab nations on Israel. Or they are showing themselves to be two-faced about it.

YOU complained about attacks against civilians. YOU claimed that Israel was a moral nation who would never do such evil things. I show you quite clearly that they are absolutely no better than terrorists, and you turn around and say, "but that's not the point!"

Seriously, get real.

 

[LazyLion]

Then you should know that there is such a thing as constitutions which are flexible, constitutions which are not entrenched, and consitutions which are not supreme.

I know what constitutions are...
http://www.google.co.za/search?q=de...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

but the terms you use here show me that you really have no idea what you are talking about. A constitution is a governing document. The whole point of it is to tell people how the country or organization will run.

Why would Hamas have a charter if they don't intend to abide by it? so by your own admission, we should not take it seriously?

Why the Hell then should we take ANYTHING Hamas says seriously?

I show my ignorance by stating something you agree with?

No, by stating something which is blatantly obvious and unnecessary. I dunno, maybe you are just trying to dazzle us with your edukashun!

Looks like you need to revisit those lectures you went through with Tony Leon, because you just discounted flexible constitutions which are not supreme. And this is besides the fact that Hamas is an organisation with voluntary attendance, and they as an organisation can bloody-well change their own rules as they see fit. The Hamas charter is not part of Palestinian law any more than the ANC's Freedom Charter is part of South African law.

OK, so anyone can be a member of Hamas , and you don't even have to agree with their charter. So if I try to join, believing that Israel has a right to exist and defend herself, how long do you think I am going to last as a member? And will they just let me go... or will they kill me for my views?

And P.S. still waiting for you to respond to the other points I raised in my post. I take that to mean that you are no longer contesting that your own logic justifies Hamas or whoever else from taking action to destroy Israel.

No, my silence means that I already answered you in a previous post and am now just ignoring your repeated circular postings. I reserve the right to ignore your dumb comments and inane ramblings. I will reply when you say something that I can decipher and is worthy of an answer.

Germans didn't get attacked for voting someone into power. Fail.

Bwahaha! OMW... what an idiot. so I guess the Second World War was just a picnic in the park?

Ummm. The palestinians, Hamas including, are perfectly willing to exist alongside Israel peacefully, as long as Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, which is essential for the existence of a Palestinian state in the first place. But hey, don't let reality interfere with your delusions.

Sure, Sure... so the rockets are just them being friendly and jovial?

They only negotiate after they get their arses kicked. Egypt and Jordan geniunely surprised them in the Yom Kippur war and Israel was in no position to take those territories back by force. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to point that out.

Um, sorry... but who got their asses kicked in that war?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

Egypt's Trapped Army
Kissinger realized the situation presented the United States with a tremendous opportunity—Egypt was totally dependent on the United States to prevent Israel from destroying its trapped army, which now had no access to food or water. The position could be parlayed later into allowing the United States to mediate the dispute, and push Egypt out of Soviet influence.

As a result, the United States exerted tremendous pressure on the Israelis to refrain from destroying the trapped army, even threatening to support a UN resolution to force the Israelis to pull back to their October 22 positions if they did not allow non-military supplies to reach the army. In a phone call with Israeli ambassador Simcha Dinitz, Kissinger told the ambassador that the destruction of the Egyptian Third Army "is an option that does not exist.

Aw, shame... they had to beg Israel not to wipe out Egypt's Army!

Israel is stopping them from acting like a nation by denying them the means to set up a bona fide independent state.

We've been over this again and again. Nobody is stopping them from forming their own state. What does the land have to do with it? The land will be given back to them when they are responsible enough to handle it. Israel already pulled back from several areas as a sign of willingness to give back land for peace. But the peace did not last and the militants resumed their murderous campaign.

Why didn't Israel help them set up an independent state 40 years ago? The Palestinians have absolutely nothing except misery to gain by not resisting.

Why the Hell is it Israel's problem? Israel was given the chance to set up a nation and they jumped at the opportunity. Why didn't the Palestinians do the same back then in 1948? Maybe because they don't want to? Or don't know how to? Or don't have the willpower to? I dunno?

 

[adamr]

not trying to fight or argue or anything with this question but just wondering:

Marine, BBSA and co. the pro-Israel side of the fence ... do you people have Muslim friends by any chance? ... reason i ask, is sometimes we generalise about people and let media etc mould our perceptions, at times it does look like it goes beyond just Israel/Palestine, and it becomes hatred towards Muslim people... just just curious if you guys have had social dealings with Muslim people as friends

EDIT: sorry im OT a bit here

 

[LazyLion]

This was not some simple attack that caused "collatoral damage". It was a deliberate attempt to mine an area after the cease-fire agreements had been finalised and a definite time for the cease-fire had been agreed upon.

Just as I thought... you refuse to denounce acts of terror when it is Hamas, but are quite quick to point out Israel's supposed wrongdoing. So if you are not willing to be objective then why are we wasting our time talking to you?

 

[JHatman]

I dunno, maybe you are just trying to dazzle us with your edukashun!

whahahah

This....might be my new siggie

 

[LazyLion]

For the record, I would be really pleased if Israel would just annex Gaza and the West Bank and just give all the Palestinians citizenship as Israeli Arabs.

They would never accept it. The extremists among them, who have the majority, refuse to recognise Israel as a sovereign nation and they desire the destruction of all Jews. In fact, I think they would probably kill you for even suggesting it.

 

[BBSA]

not trying to fight or argue or anything with this question but just wondering:

Marine, BBSA and co. the pro-Israel side of the fence ... do you people have Muslim friends by any chance? ... reason i ask, is sometimes we generalise about people and let media etc mould our perceptions, at times it does look like it goes beyond just Israel/Palestine, and it becomes hatred towards Muslim people... just just curious if you guys have had social dealings with Muslim people as friends

EDIT: sorry im OT a bit here

I do not have any problem with Muslim people, but I do have a big problem with terrorism. Wish you would also take a stands against terrorism.