The Middle East Conflict Thread

semiautomatix

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
11,914
what? WTH does that have to do with anything? which same guys?

.. and there was a kingdom of Jewish people in that region over 2000 years ago

but I still dont' get your point? :confused:

They'll claim Mickey Mouse indoctrination video is old news but will use references from a 1000 years ago for the Palestinian claim to the land :confused:
 

LazyLion

King of de Jungle
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
105,603
I asked earlier - where are the palestinians expected to go to ? The sick, the frail, the young. How should they get to their destination ?

It's probably safer to stay indoors when missiles, phosphorus bombs are falling in the streets.

There was actually a news piece on Euro news the last two days about how both Palestinians and Israelis are being treated at a hospital in Ashkelon. It was amazing. There was a Muslim lady in full black dress with her daughter (being treated) and they were being entertained by a young Israeli girl in a clown suit. It was amazing. The Palestinian woman had come from Gaza for her daughter's injuries to be treated (I don't know how exactly she got them).

But it did give me hope for both sides.

To answer your questions though... the sick, the frail, the young... in all those cases I would assume that they are under somebody's care or authority... and whoever that responsible person is should take steps to secure their safety. If the person who is looking after them is Saleem who is launching Iranian rockets from the backyard of the house... then I am sorry to say... but their deaths are his fault.
 

semiautomatix

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
11,914
To be honest, I am quite disappointed at your descent into technicalities and semantics - it smacks of typical Israeli propaganda, and I thought we had moved on to serious discussion, especially in the light of the massive humanitarian crisis in the area. It is quite clear that a withdrawal to their pre-6-day-war borders is a pre-requisite for any real move towards peace ( as I and many others believe is stated in that resolution ), so if you are prepared to debate further on the possibility of peace you need to accept that. Otherwise all you are doing is supporting Israel's warmongering, like others here. Which is fine, but pointless, once the stance is recognised.

Which part of "Palestine does not accept Resolution 242" did you not understand? How can you expect the resolution to be adopted when neither side agrees to it?

The drafters, those people who drew up and supported the resolution, state that Israel does not need to withdraw from territories won in the war. I am discussing the fact that Israel did not breach the resolution, not whether the withdraw is necessary or not (that is another debate).
 

d0b33

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Messages
17,462
They'll claim Mickey Mouse indoctrination video is old news but will use references from a 1000 years ago for the Palestinian claim to the land :confused:

Um... Israel is the one using references that are a 1000 years old.
 

LazyLion

King of de Jungle
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
105,603
As I understand it, the hamas rockets have killed in the region of 20 israelis in the last 8 years.

More people die from slipping in the bath in a year.

Is this really what the onslaught is all about ?

The duty of the state is to protect the lives of its citizens. Would you have them sit around and do nothing?

There have been lots of numbers thrown around here the last few days.... but the simple fact is ONE innocent life is TOO much... whether it is Israeli or Palestinian. It's not about 5 versus 400... its about innocent people being targeted ... and the simple reality is that Hamas started this killing. I full support Israel in its quest to defend itself with proportionately increased force if necessary. These are lives that Hamas must answer for on both sides.
 

semiautomatix

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
11,914
What video? the mouse video?
I don't find frankie's links interesting enough to form an opinion to be honest, he get's excited watching terrorist videos and I don't.

Besides, the mouse is dead.

And therefore irrelevant.

Okay, so we'll disregard anything that happened before 2007 then? As such we can ignore any wars or territory gains by Israel before then. Good. Don't be daft - thousands of children have been watching the video:

"We will return the Islamic community to its former greatness, and liberate Jerusalem, God willing, liberate Iraq, God willing, and liberate all the countries of the Muslims invaded by the murderers."

How is this statement not relevant, I find it exceptionally relevant to the current situation.
 

BBSA

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
21,905
As I understand it, the hamas rockets have killed in the region of 20 israelis in the last 8 years.

More people die from slipping in the bath in a year.

Is this really what the onslaught is all about ?

Must the Israeli's apologize that only 20 Israelis was killed? Would you feel better if it was a thousand?

Hamas must take responsibility for every Palestinian who is killed!
 

daveza

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 5, 2004
Messages
47,671
.. the sick, the frail, the young... in all those cases I would assume that they are under somebody's care or authority... and whoever that responsible person is should take steps to secure their safety.

To be more specific ( if the caregiver isn't bomber saleem ) how do they protect these people against guided missiles, phosphorus bombs ?

The streets are impossible to navigate in many areas, buildings are crumbling - people are in hospital beds, wheelchairs - it is simply farcical to expect the entire population of Gaza's old men, women, children, sick, wounded to evacuate the city.
 

semiautomatix

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
11,914
Um... Israel is the one using references that are a 1000 years old.

Nope, the Arabs would claim that the Jews were expelled during the Jewish diaspora, and as such the land belongs to them because they've been occupiers for the last 1500 years.

Interesting point, there are not more Jews in the US than Israel:

As of 2006, the largest number of Jews lives in Israel (5,309,000), United States (5,275,000), France (492,000), Canada (372,000), and the United Kingdom (297,000).
 

LazyLion

King of de Jungle
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
105,603
To be more specific ( if the caregiver isn't bomber saleem ) how do they protect these people against guided missiles, phosphorus bombs ?

The streets are impossible to navigate in many areas, buildings are crumbling - people are in hospital beds, wheelchairs - it is simply farcical to expect the entire population of Gaza's old men, women, children, sick, wounded to evacuate the city.

Israel issued warnings for up to a month ahead of its military action. They had plenty of time to leave when it was safe to do so. Come on. It does not take a miracle... I have moved plenty of frail and elderly people in my time. It takes two guys and a days journey.
 

LazyLion

King of de Jungle
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
105,603
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7810181.stm

Analysis: Israel's faith in force
By Jeremy Bowen
BBC Middle East editor, Jerusalem

A senior Israeli military source has said it is unrealistic to stop all the rocket fire.

But the Israeli army believes it can be decreased, and made less accurate, thanks to what he called boots on the ground. The objective, the source said, was not to recapture the Gaza Strip.

Plans had been drawn up to unseat Hamas and if the order was given it could be done, although it would be a long campaign.

The Israeli military says Hamas fighters are not engaging with them in close combat. Instead they are using mortars and improvised bombs.

Israel is trying to deflect some of the international condemnation it has had for killing civilians and using air power and ground forces in a place where 1.5m people live.

It says that the humanitarian effort has been integrated into the military planning.

That is unlikely to reassure all those who have called for an immediate ceasefire.

It is clear that Israel believes it is also sending a message to its other enemies - especially Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Israeli military sources say Hezbollah's capacities have not been decreased, but if they want another round they would pay the price.

The Israeli army was hit hard by Hezbollah in the 2006 war. Hamas will want to emulate them. Israel does not want a repeat of what happened the last time it invaded Lebanon.

Israeli troops have entered Gaza before to try to stop rocket fire - they did not succeed.

This time, after a week of air strikes, Israel believes force will work, because much more of it is being used.

The Israeli military will be concerned about casualties, but they are a very formidable and well-armed, modern force.

Its troops also know Gaza very well, having occupied the coastal territory from 1967 until September 2005.

Nevertheless, they may find it difficult when they enter the main populated areas, in which the buildings stand pretty close together. The many refugee camps are warrens of single-storey, concrete or breeze-block houses with tin roofs.

Hamas fighters, who know Gaza better than the Israeli troops, have a belief in resistance and martyrdom.

Their objective will be to give the Israeli army the same humiliation that Hezbollah inflicted during 2006.

For all their bravado, Hamas are unlikely to be as formidable as Hezbollah.

The rocky, hilly terrain of south Lebanon was not good for Israel's armour. Gaza, on the other hand, is flat and sandy.

Hamas is said to have smuggled weapons in through tunnels under the border Egypt, but it is doubtful that it has the arsenal which Hezbollah acquired.

Even so, they will be the latest heroes to those people across the Islamic world who have latched onto ideology of resistance to Israel and its American allies, which has become one of the region's most potent ideas.

For Hamas, the definition of victory will be that they can they fight on at the end of all this; for Israel it will be the stopping of rocket fire from Gaza.
 

semiautomatix

Honorary Master
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
11,914
Not sure about that, have to check what rights they have e.g. land ownership, voting, religious freedom etc. Arab = race, Jewish = religion.. lol this thread is like a borate movie ;) The Palestinians are justified to be annoyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Ethnic groups
76% Jewish
19% Arab
5% minority groups

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

Not only does the Basic Laws guarantee equal status in the eyes of the law, but there have been Arabs serving in the Government, Knesset and IDF to name a few.
 

Xarog

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
19,039
hey man, if you want to stay and debate, then feel free... but if you can't take the heat, I'm sorry. Maybe it is better if you take a break. I'm quite willing to talk to you here about the topic at hand. No malicious intention intended. This thread is not for the weak-minded... but we still post in other threads on the board. If you look carefully you will see that many of us talk to each other quite happily in other threads about other topics. I have many enemies in this thread... but that same person may be on my side about another technical issue in another thread. Seriously. Don't let it get to you. We like to drive our points home here... and we are very serious about our sources being credible. Don't feel bad that I picked on yours. I get the same treatment from others here. I will be very disappointed if you let this come between us. Think about it.
Or maybe you should discuss the matter like a reasonable person. Just a thought. :rolleyes:

I mean... you guys are seriously accusing other people of being terrorists just because they have a different opinion to you. How on earth would that not cause people to think you are a total tool?
 

daveza

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 5, 2004
Messages
47,671
I have moved plenty of frail and elderly people in my time.

Unfortunately people have got sick, injured, born etc since the month-ago warning.

What about the hundreds who have been wounded, maimed in the last week - they don't have an opportunity to escape so are they now just
' unfortunate ' ?
 

LazyLion

King of de Jungle
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
105,603
Or maybe you should discuss the matter like a reasonable person. Just a thought. :rolleyes:

I mean... you guys are seriously accusing other people of being terrorists just because they have a different opinion to you. How on earth would that not cause people to think you are a total tool?

Show me where I accused anyone in this thread of being a terrorist? And the reverse of your argument is true as well. Those of us who support Israel have been accused of many things as well. If you are going to come into a thread in which you have had little input and start accusing people at least have your facts straight and try to be a little bit more objective. It kinda makes you look "unreasonable". :rolleyes:
 

BBSA

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
21,905
Or maybe you should discuss the matter like a reasonable person. Just a thought. :rolleyes:

I mean... you guys are seriously accusing other people of being terrorists just because they have a different opinion to you.

It is not just us, from wiki:

Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[18] the European Union,[19][20][21][22] Israel,[23] Japan,[24] and the United States,[25] and is banned in Jordan.[26] Australia[27] and the United Kingdom[28] list only the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization. The United States and the European Union have both implemented restrictive measures against Hamas on an international level.[19][29]
 

LazyLion

King of de Jungle
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Messages
105,603
Unfortunately people have got sick, injured, born etc since the month-ago warning.

What about the hundreds who have been wounded, maimed in the last week - they don't have an opportunity to escape so are they now just
' unfortunate ' ?

Then why didnt' they leave the targeted war zone while they were healthy? Even more reason to go. I don't get your argument. It seems to me you are just clutching at straws.

let me put it this way... if you heard on the radio that your home city was about to be targeted by missiles and rockets designed to take out terrorists hiding among the civilian population... what would you do?
 
Top