The Middle East Conflict Thread

[d0b33]

really? where?

The religious zealots, also the IDF used Masada as a reference to defend Israel.

The Chief of Staff of the Israel Defence Forces (IDF), Moshe Dayan, initiated the practice of holding the swearing-in ceremony of soldiers who have completed their Tironut (IDF basic training) on top of Masada. The ceremony ends with the declaration: "Masada shall not fall again." The soldiers climb the Snake Path at night and are sworn in with torches lighting the background. [6]

Funny enough... hog/pig remains were found at one excavation so this practice is not compulsory anymore.

 

[LazyLion]

The religious zealots, also the IDF used Masada as a reference to defend Israel.

Funny enough... hog/pig remains were found at one excavation so this practice is not compulsory anymore.

um, I do this while trying to keep a straight face... but Masada as a fortress ended its significance TWO thousand years ago... not 1000 years ago. Masada was built by Herod who was an Idumean (Roman placed) king of Judea AFTER the Hasmonean kingdom of the Jews (ca. up to 37 B.C. - Before Christ)!

so I ask you again... can you please provide me with a credible quote for any Jewish person who claims ownership of the land dating to events around 1000 years ago?

 

[LazyLion]

Because they've been living in bunkers

Well said. They have been under constant threat from attack for many years now... practically since 1948.

 

[d0b33]

um, I do this while trying to keep a straight face... but Masada as a fortress ended its significance TWO thousand years ago... not 1000 years ago. Masada was built by Herod who was an Idumean (Roman placed) king of Judea AFTER the Hasmonean kingdom of the Jews (ca. up to 37 B.C. - Before Christ)!

so I ask you again... can you please provide me with a credible quote for any Jewish person who claims ownership of the land dating to events around 1000 years ago?

I spoke of 1000 years in an abstract way not exact, 1000, 2000 years are both ancient and irrelevant.

 

[rwenzori]

Which part of "Palestine does not accept Resolution 242" did you not understand? How can you expect the resolution to be adopted when neither side agrees to it?

The drafters, those people who drew up and supported the resolution, state that Israel does not need to withdraw from territories won in the war. I am discussing the fact that Israel did not breach the resolution, not whether the withdraw is necessary or not (that is another debate).

The Court concludes by stating that the construction of the wall must be placed in a more general context. In this regard, the Court notes that Israel and Palestine are “under an obligation scrupulously to observe the rules of international humanitarian law”. In the Court’s view, the tragic situation in the region can be brought to an end only through implementation in good faith of all relevant Security Council resolutions. The Court further draws the attention of the General Assembly to the “need for . . . efforts to be encouraged with a view to achieving as soon as possible, on the basis of international law, a negotiated solution to the outstanding problems and the establishment of a Palestinian State, existing side by side with Israel and its other neighbours, with peace and security for all in the region”.

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?pr=71&code=mwp&p1=3&p2=4&p3=6&case=131&k=5a

 

[LazyLion]

I spoke of 1000 years in an abstract way not exact, 1000, 2000 years are both ancient and irrelevant.

ah, I see... the abstract. Nice attempt at a save. Pity it doesn't go very far in proving that you actually have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

irrelevant, huh? I hope you aren't going to tell your Muslim buddies that Mohammad and the founding of Islam are "irrelevant"... but the Israelis would love your argument... since it means they can pull down the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem because it is "irrelevant"

 

[d0b33]

All in all it can work, but a lot of sacrifice will have to be made and more so would appear on the Israeli side as they have to give up control of the region(somewhat), and their populous will have to contend with pretty much the issues white people in Sa have to deal with. For the Palestinians it would be a big change as there is almost nothing but positives for them since they currently have little to nothing left.

Indeed, unfortunately peace can not be achieved without sacrifice but most Israeli citizens would like to have a Jewish state so I don't see this happening any time soon.

 

[BBSA]

ah, I see... the abstract. Nice attempt at a save. Pity it doesn't go very far in proving that you actually have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

irrelevant, huh? I hope you aren't going to tell your Muslim buddies that Mohammad and the founding of Islam are "irrelevant"... but the Israelis would love your argument... since it means they can pull down the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem because it is "irrelevant"

Excellent point

 

[LazyLion]

Indeed, unfortunately peace can not be achieved without sacrifice but most Israeli citizens would like to have a Jewish state so I don't see this happening any time soon.

just wanting a peaceful country to live in is a darn sight better than wanting an entire race of people exterminated.

Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

 

[Frankie]

just wanting a peaceful country to live in is a darn sight better than wanting an entire race of people exterminated.



http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!

Guaranteed you going to be accused of "pulling the radical card".

 

[daveza]

let me put it this way... if you heard on the radio that your home city was about to be targeted by missiles and rockets designed to take out terrorists hiding among the civilian population... what would you do?

Well let me put it this way ..

If I were a doctor, nurse, fireman, policeman, ambulance driver, plumber, electrician should I just abandon everyone and leave them to their own devices?

People in Gaza don't just fire rockets and wave placards. They need to work to feed their families, to clothe their children, to buy medicine.

We are not talking about New Orleans where everyone has a car, where the roads are perfect, where insurance will cover the damage.

As I understand it the citizens of Gaza were told to move .... to Gaza ?!

 

[d0b33]

since it means they can pull down the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem because it is "irrelevant"

The mosque is there now not a 1000 years ago?

We all know with your bias that if that mosque were torn down you'd be delighted regardless of the archeological significance/record.

 

[LazyLion]

Guaranteed you going to be accused of "pulling the radical card".

Because I quoted their founding documents?

What about this....

http://newsblaze.com/story/20070503214526nnnn.nb/topstory.html

Hamas: "The Extermination of The Jews is Good for The Inhabitants of The Worlds.
by Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook

The extermination of Jews is Allah's will and is for the benefit of all humanity, according to an article in the Hamas paper, Al-Risalah. The author of the article, Kan'an Ubayd, explains that the suicide operations carried out by Hamas are being committed solely to fulfill Allah's wishes. Furthermore, Allah demanded this action, because "the extermination of the Jews is good for the inhabitants of the worlds."

The killing of innocent Jews by terrorist attacks is portrayed as Allah's plan for the benefit of humanity.

It should be noted that Hamas's justification for the extermination of Jews, both as God's will and for the benefit of humanity, echoes Hitler's words in Mein Kampf:

"In this case the only salvation remaining was war... If the Jew with the help of his Marxist creed is victorious over the peoples of this world, then his crown will be the funeral wreath of humanity... Thus I believe today that I am acting according to the will of the almighty Creator: when I defend myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." (Mein Kampf)

In another parallel to the Nazi genocide of Jews, the writer says he wants to be sure that "everyone will know" that these murderous actions are "not of [Hamas's] own accord" - an echo of the Nazi war criminals' repeated justification of their actions with the defense that they were only following orders.

The fact that these orders are said to be divine in nature makes Hamas's justification for the murder of Jews even more ominous.

Following is the excerpt from the Hamas article:

"We find more than once condemnation and denunciation to the resistance operations and bombings [suicide attacks], carried out by Hamas and the Palestinian resistance branches. There is no other choice but to use restraint regarding the condemnation, the attaching of the label of terror [to "resistance"], and the assembling of conferences [for] condemnation [of the attacks]. [This] so that everyone will know, that we did this only because our lord commanded so, "I did it not of my own accord" [*] and so that people will know that the extermination of Jews is good for the inhabitants of the worlds on a land, to which Allah gave his blessing for the sake of the inhabitants of the worlds."[Al-Risalah, April 23, 2007]

Ooops, I guess this article is "old" as well

 

[LazyLion]

Well let me put it this way ..

If I were a doctor, nurse, fireman, policeman, ambulance driver, plumber, electrician should I just abandon everyone and leave them to their own devices?

People in Gaza don't just fire rockets and wave placards. They need to work to feed their families, to clothe their children, to buy medicine.

We are not talking about New Orleans where everyone has a car, where the roads are perfect, where insurance will cover the damage.

As I understand it the citizens of Gaza were told to move .... to Gaza ?!

If they are the aggressors... then Hell Yeah!!! Let them fire their rockets and get it rained back on their head. I would not stay behind for the likes of them.... unless I had a political agenda to do so... and hope to score some PR points by posing some wounded kids for the Western Media.

The could have moved to Egypt or Israel... either direction... East or West was open before the blockade.... especially to those seeking asylum from the terrorists.

 

[LazyLion]

The mosque is there now not a 1000 years ago?

We all know with your bias that if that mosque were torn down you'd be delighted regardless of the archeological significance/record.

Now please be consistent... you said that any claims dating from ancient times are "irrelevant" ... now you twist and turn your own words back to mean something else... typical... very typical. You never said anything about extant buildings... we were talking about land.... you used Masada as an example which was a building - a fortress at one time... but was destroyed by the Romans.... how is their claim any different to Al Aqsa??? They at one time also had a building on the land... in fact... their building pre-dates the Islamic buildings.... so by right of prior ownership they have the stronger claim.

Actually, I have no interest in whether there is a mosque or temple there... or an ice cream shop. I have no stake in either religion.

 

[d0b33]

just wanting a peaceful country to live in is a darn sight better than wanting an entire race of people exterminated.
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

When I said most want a 'Jewish state' that means they are not interested in a truly secular state without a religious identity, only a few would want this.

If Hamas are so Radical then why did Israel fund it?

In a statement to the Israeli Parliament's (the Knesset) Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on Monday February 12th 2007, Israeli Prime minister Ehud Olmert said "Netanyahu established Hamas, gave it life, freed Sheikh Yassin and gave him the opportunity to blossom"

 

[daveza]

and hope to score some PR points by posing some wounded kids for the Western Media.

The could have moved to Egypt or Israel... either direction... East or West was open before the blockade.... especially to those seeking asylum from the terrorists.

Unfortunately they score PR points by posing some dead kids for the Western Media. These are normally 0 - to 10 years old kids who relied on adults to protect them and there are a plethora of reasons why the parents didn't, were unable to etc.

Imagine being told to leave Cape Town, or Joburg and go live in the bush for 2months - alongside everyone else from the city. Grief - who has the infrastructure to support masses like this with food, medicine, shelter, toilets, water, heat ?

It's an absurd order to put to a population who has little enough where they are and nothing where they are supposed to go to.

Here's another absurd suggestion - tell all the Israelis living within range of the rockets to move out of range. Then hamas wouldn't be a threat.

You will reply saying why should they move as they haven't done anything wrong apart from living in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Then I will reply saying why should they move as they haven't done anything wrong apart from living in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[LazyLion]

When I said most want a 'Jewish state' that means they are not interested truly secular state without a religious identity, only a few would want this.

If Hamas are so Radical then why did Israel fund it?

where does it say they funded it? Jeez, I'm sorry.. but you really are not the brightest cookie in the packet are you?

Olmert is criticising his old opponent for releasing political prisoners who belong to Hamas. I would think that should make you happy??

he means he gave it life by releasing those prisoners to go back to their old terrorism.

Got it now?

 

[d0b33]

Now please be consistent...

Maybe you're not consistent?.. but then again you are a biblical scholar.

 

[LazyLion]

Unfortunately they score PR points by posing some dead kids for the Western Media. These are normally 0 - to 10 years old kids who relied on adults to protect them and there are a plethora of reasons why the parents didn't, were unable to etc.

Imagine being told to leave Cape Town, or Joburg and go live in the bush for 2months - alongside everyone else from the city. Grief - who has the infrastructure to support masses like this with food, medicine, shelter, toilets, water, heat ?

It's an absurd order to put to a population who has little enough where they are and nothing where they are supposed to go to.

The lives of those dead unfortunate kids are on the heads of their fathers.

Who said anything about going into the bush???

If you leave one city... just move to another... there are plenty of places in Egypt and Southern Israel. Heck, throw yourself on the mercy of the Israelis and ask them to feed you. There are plenty of options.

I think you are pushing this point to absurdity. Sorry, I am done with this particular line of the thread. Just use your common sense.