The Poynting antenna discussion thread

Hi latinlyrics and welcome!

I'll tell you what you want to know if you swear an internet blood oath to post photos once you're done. :p

First and foremost, do you have LOS (Line of Sight) of the MTN/Telkom Mobile tower? If not, you may want to spring for twin LPDA-0092's mounted high up as possible *especially* if you get "occasional" LTE signal.

I'll do a write-up on an installation how-to soon.
 
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Some of the panel antenna's got 2 cables. Why. Do the panel use power as well. What is inside the panel.

Hi Robertvv

Those panels are cross-polarised: they have vertically and horizontally mounted elements inside the housing; a separate feed comes from each (separate) antenna. Each feed goes to each open port on, for example, the B593 LTE CPE. There are USB sticks and MiFi's that have two available ports as well. (Each device has it's purpose; for desktop use and to power the home, the B593 is unsurpassed)

The antennas don't use power. I think @jcheek can better explain how the energy transfer works. I don't want to spend my entire evening googling now...:p. He's the Engineer after all, I'm just a misguided banker.
 
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Hi latinlyrics and welcome!

I'll tell you what you want to know if you swear and internet blood oath to post photos once you're done. :p

First and foremost, do you have LOS (Line of Sight) of the MTN/Telkom Mobile tower? If not, you may want to spring for twin LPDA-0092's mounted high up as possible *especially* if you get "occasional" LTE signal.

I'll do a write-up on an installation how-to soon.

Thanks I will definitely post pics... Will be up on the roof tomorrow looking for the tower :) Hopefully post the pics tomorrow :)
 
Great, post away! Btw I've edited my post since you quoted to add additional information. Edit: sorry, was thinking of Robertvv.
 
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A really apt reading piece, unfortunately from a now defunct site, by Matthew McDonald, over at mobileword.org:

Antenna

Getting energy out from a transmitter and in to a receiver is critically dependent upon the ability of the transmitter to pass energy (radio signals) from its antenna to free space, similarly the same is true of a receiver.

There are a number of factors involved including:-

- Frequency (wavelength).
- Gain.
- Impedance.
- Polarisation.
- Frequency

Each antenna has a resonant frequency, the frequency at which it is most efficient at either transmitting or receiving energy. The resonant frequency is set by the physical length of the antenna. Frequency and wavelength are related, the wavelength (in metres) is equal to the speed of light (in metres/sec) divided by the frequency (in Hertz - Hz).

Similarly the frequency is equal to the speed of light divided by the wavelength. So in the good old days when Radio 4 was the Long Wave it transmitted on a wavelength of 1500m. The speed of light is 300,000,000 metres a second so 300,000,000 / 1,500 = 200,000Hz or 200 kHz. Go find an old radio and you will find 1500m on the dial, newer ones have 200 kHz (and yes, thank to some interfering French politicians Radio 4 is now on 198 kHz which took away a lovely stable frequency reference - but that’s another story).

A frequency of 1800 MHz (GSM 1800) equates to a wavelength of:-

300,000,000 / 1,800,000,000 = 0.167m

or a wavelength of about 16.7cm. At 900 MHz everything is twice as big, so 900 MHz gives a wavelength of 33.4cm. Antennae are usually referred to by the fraction of a wavelength represented by their physical length, so a full wave antenna at 1800 MHz would be 16.7cm long (In practice it would be a slightly different length to allow for corrections for end effects). A half wave antenna at 1800 MHz would be 8.4cm and so on. Most phone antennae are about 1/4 wavelength long.

Gain

The basic pattern of energy coming from a “perfect” antenna with no gain is a bit like a ball (with the antenna in the middle), the antenna radiates equally in all directions (the “isotropic” antenna). This isn’t always what is wanted. In most mobile phone antennae you want most of the energy coming out near the ground and not too much going vertically into space.

A standard dipole radiation pattern is not isotropic - it looks bit like a doughnut with the antenna in place of the hole.

An antenna can only put out what is put in to it, so when you see adverts for antennae with “gain” (for example 3dB gain) what it means is that the energy is being directed more in one direction than others (It also means the area the energy was redirected FROM will get less.)

Going back to the doughnut, if you press down on the top of the ball it gets wider and shorter, the wider axis is showing gain, the shorter one loss.

You can also put directivity in the azimuth pattern - but for phones this is not a good idea! The most common antenna with gain in azimuth is the common TV antenna (a Yagi antenna design for the curious) which typically has a beamwidth of about 15 to 20°.

Antenna gain is usually expressed in decibels and refers to the gain of the design over the radiation in that direction given by a perfect isotropic antenna or a dipole. As the isotropic antenna and dipole differ anyway it is important to know which is being referred to when comparing antennae. Usually if antenna is described as having “3dB gain” it means compared with a dipole. If it says “3dBi gain” it means compared with an isotropic radiator.

The most common mobile antenna design to show gain is the co-linear. In most cases this will give about 3dB gain over a dipole. Treat all claims for greater gain from non directional antennas with severe suspicion!

Impedance

Impedance is to AC circuits roughly what resistance is to DC circuits (OK - I know that’s a shelf full of text books dismissed in one line!). It isn’t just the length of the antenna which matters but also how you get power into it. For maximum transfer of power the source, transmission line, and load must all have the same impedance In the case of your phone this means the phone, antenna lead, and antenna should all have the same value of impedance.

This value is 50 ohms for most phones so the transmitter and receiver in the phone have a 50 ohm characteristic impedance, the cable is 50 ohms and the antenna impedance should be 50 ohms.

At the base of a 1/4 wave antenna the impedance is indeed about 50 ohms, however at the base of a 1/2 wave one it is several thousand ohms. Making dual frequency antennae (for use on both 900 and 1800 MHz) is a compromise between length, thickness (which also affects impedance) and gain. Nearly all dual frequency antennae will work quite well at one of the frequencies and less well at the other. All are outperformed by single frequency antennas.

Polarisation

Polarisation is the alignment of the electrical part of the radio frequency energy in space. A vertical antenna produces a vertically polarised signal, a horizontal one a horizontally polarised one, and a spiral antenna a circularly polarised one (left or right hand depending upon the way the spiral goes). In theory a horizontal receiving antenna will receive no energy from a vertical transmitter antenna (and this works - many continuous wave tracking radar’s use a left hand circularly polarised signal to transmit and a right hand one to receive so they can transmit and receive on the same frequency at the same time.

However we all know the phone still works lying on the table - so what happens?

The signal from the transmitter strikes many objects along its way and is reflected from them, these reflections are often twisted because of the irregular nature of the reflecting object. By the time the signal reaches you it has lost much of its initial polarisation and become scattered. However it will usually still be the case that most of the signal will maintain its original polarisation and the more vertical you keep the antenna the better your chances of a good signal.

Special Antennas and Signal Amplifiers

The Co-linear

The true co-linear design is a series of dipoles stacked end to end and fed by different cables such that the radiation patterns inter-react to give a lower angle of radiation with more power in the lower angles than the higher. The antenna called a colinear in mobile phones achieves a similar effect by being partial multiples of wavelengths long and having tuning and loading coils built in ( the single coiled twist in the 1800 MHz antenna shown above and the thicker tube about 1/3 of the way up the 900MHz antenna. The extra length of the co-linear explains why your antenna is longer than you expected based on the calculations at the top of this page.

The Yagi

The Yagi antenna design is probly the most common antenna with gain - nearly all TV antennae are Yagis. Its use in mobile phones is very limited because it gives directional gain in azimuth - you need to know where the base station is and point at it! However it does have its uses, models for 900MHz are made mainly for the Nordic market where mobile phones are the communication method of choice for the popular remote weekend houses. Fitted to a house and pointing at the nearest base station it gives excellent gain and will often turn a no hope signal into a strong one.

Signal Amplifiers

Touted by some as the secret panacea for all ills the linear amplifier (AKA “Burner”, Power Booster, Power Amplifier) came to infamy in the heyday of CB radio when they were brought over from the USA and fitted illegally to Ford Capris and Cortinas by numbers of CB enthusiasts. In general there were two main effects - the car battery ran down very quickly and every receiver for miles around was jammed by the spurious out of band emissions. Some of these amplifiers were quite impressive - 1kW (yes - 1000 Watt) linears sitting on the boot of ratty Fords were not unknown!

Somewhat more civilised amplifiers were fitted to car kits for analogue phones taking their power up to 5 Watts. However since the advent of GSM and PCN the benefits to be gained from these quite expensive boxes have become much less.

As far as PCN is concerned the only benefit is to overcome losses in installations where long cable runs must be employed, for example if you need an antenna on the roof of your house. In this situation the amplifier incorporates both a received signal pre-amplifier and a transmitted signal power amplifier. It is designed to overcome the quite significant losses which occur in co-axial cables at 1800MHz.

Putting one in your car will usually have little or no significant effect.

Source: http://www.mobileworld.org/info_antenna.html
 
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Some of the panel antenna's got 2 cables. Why. Do the panel use power as well. What is inside the panel.

Hi Robertvv

Azimuth's already provided a good answer - the dual-element antennas are completely passive, ie they don't use power. The two cables you see only carry very low-power signals either from the antenna to the router (downlink), or from the router to the antenna (uplink).

The benefit of the dual-element antennas is that you have both elements already correctly aligned (polarised) and packaged together in a nice, neat, self-contained box, ready for use with LTE. This saves you the hassle of messing around with a dual-antenna LTE setup like this one :

IMG-20140717-00080.jpg

The above is only a temporary arrangement and will be neatened up eventually, but you get the idea.
 
Hi latinlyrics and welcome!

I'll tell you what you want to know if you swear an internet blood oath to post photos once you're done. :p

First and foremost, do you have LOS (Line of Sight) of the MTN/Telkom Mobile tower? If not, you may want to spring for twin LPDA-0092's mounted high up as possible *especially* if you get "occasional" LTE signal.

I'll do a write-up on an installation how-to soon.

Please check here:

Cellular antenna installation and alignment
 
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1) Why would I get the xpol 0006 over the XPOL-0002? The XPOL-0002 seems to cover the same frequencies and more and is ultimately cheaper. Yes the gain on the 2 is 9DBi compared to 11Dbi on the 6. Surely 9 is enough for a few km?

It's a bit of a compromise.

If you go with the XPOL-0006:
Pros:
- You should get ultimate performance with one network operator (Telkom Mobile). 11dB versus 9dB doesn't sound like a lot, but it actually translates to quite a useful improvement - around 60% better signal.
Cons:
- You limit yourself to that one operator (Telkom). No possibility of using that antenna with MTN or Vodacom (for now, at least).
- You limit yourself to that one system (LTE, 2300MHz). No possibility of 3G/2G fallback operation.

If you go with the XPOL-0002:
Pros:
- You should get reasonable performance with Telkom Mobile (make sure to get the XPOL-0002-V2 if you can).
- You would also be able to use the antenna with Vodacom or MTN (and possibly others).
- You would be able to use the antenna in LTE (4G) as well as 3G and 2G fallback modes.
Cons:
- You give up some performance with Telkom Mobile.

Whether 9dB gain is "enough" depends on how much signal you have now. You say your B593 picks up signal indoors now and then, so you do have some signal, albeit a weak one. Since you already have a B593 router you are in a good position to find out what signal you have. The best way would be to head up onto the roof, armed with B593 and laptop, and measure using the B593's diagnosis tools.

As a very rough guide (my opinion only) I'd say that you want to see an RSSI of at least -80dBm (remember closer to zero is better) on the internal antennas at the best roof position you can find with your chosen network. Roughly speaking, and neglecting cable losses for the moment, your XPOL-0002 or XPOL-0006 external antennas would then take that signal up to -71dBm or -69dBm respectively, both of which would be pretty good signals. (Just for illustration, -50dBm would be a near-ideal signal strength).

So, if you see more than -80dBm (say, -70dBm) on the roof, then you could consider a lower-gain antenna system.
If you see less than -80dBm on the roof, consider going for the best antenna system you can stand.

Good luck, let us know how you get on!
 
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One thing that intrigues me is this : In Poynting's LTE videos, they show two LPDA-0092 antennas oriented at 0 degrees and 90 degrees relative to the vertical plane, ie vertical and horizontal. For the LPDA-0020, they show the two antennas mounted orthogonally, but at +45 and -45 to the vertical plane - see here.
I'm curious about :
a) Why most of Poynting's LTE antennas have horizontal and vertical elements, whereas the dual LPDA-0020 array is an exception at +45/-45 degrees;
b) Whether it would be possible/advisable to mount an LPDA-0020 array in the 0/90 position (as opposed to +45/-45); and
c) What the relative advantages (if any) of a 0/90 array might be.

Managed to have a chat with one of the technical gurus at Poynting earlier today. According to him, the antenna arrays on modern-day base stations are generally polarised at +45/+135 degrees, and both 3G and LTE signals go out via the same antennas anyway (using a combiner/triplexer). While the signals are polarised that way when they leave the tower, reflection and multipath effects mean that receiving antennas polarised vertically or horizontally can still pick up sufficient signal to work well. Those horrible little internal antennas inside our cellphones and USB stick-modems are not polarised in any particular direction when the devices are lying on a table-top or pressed to your ear.

What I took away from this discussion was as follows :
1) If you have good line-of-sight to the tower, then an antenna array polarised at +45/+135 should provide the "ultimate" arrangement - two strong, de-correlated signals for the MIMO system to use as "parallel channels". However, a 0/90 setup will also work well.
2) If you don't have good line-of-sight, or have strong multipath effects, then two vertically-polarised antennas (like two omnidirectionals) will work well.
3) Since all signals (3G and 4G) are being transmitted at +45/+135 angles anyway, a +45/+135 array should still work fine for 3G fallback.

If you have a dual-element LTE antenna (any one of the XPOL variants), then the polarisation decision is of course already made for you. Some of Poynting's newer antennas (like the XPOL-0010) have elements at +45/+135, while others have them at 0/90. Particularly when used indoors or with strong multipath, both will work fine.

I expect in future all dual antennas will be sold with 45/45
It seems that in this you are correct, sajunky - the following piece of hardware (also on display in the Poynting showroom) is apparently intended to allow for mounting discrete antennas like the LPDA-0092 in the "ideal" +45/+135 positions for line-of-sight conditions :

IMG-20140717-00075.jpg

On the strength of this, I went ahead and mounted my twin LPDA-0020's at the +45/+135 positions. It's early days yet, but I think most would agree that this preliminary result looks quite encouraging ;-)

speedtest.JPG

Watch this space ...
 
It seems that in this you are correct, sajunky - the following piece of hardware (also on display in the Poynting showroom) is apparently intended to allow for mounting discrete antennas like the LPDA-0092 in the "ideal" +45/+135 positions for line-of-sight conditions :

View attachment 133331

On the strength of this, I went ahead and mounted my twin LPDA-0020's at the +45/+135 positions. It's early days yet, but I think most would agree that this preliminary result looks quite encouraging ;-)

View attachment 133335

Watch this space ...
Yip, congratulations!

For 2/3G orthogonal tower antenna was used for signal beam forming (adjusting polarization dynamically to the individual recipient), the same for LTE when 2x2 MIMO fails to negotiate. With HSPA+ R7 and LTE operating in MIMO mode it is better to match spatial orientation in addition to LOS and azimuth. :)

Interesting, that while we hear so much these day's on this forum about Poynting supremacy comparing to any other (much cheaper products), they have yet to learn very basic things on errors like many others. This is surprising, really :)
 
(adjusting polarization dynamically to the individual recipient)
Adjusting polarisation .... are you sure about that ? That's not what I understand by beam-forming.

With HSPA+ R7 and LTE operating in MIMO mode it is better to match spatial orientation in addition to LOS and azimuth. :)
Agreed, I think. I don't have comparable results for a 0/90 setup, but 45/135 sure seems to work OK :D

Interesting, that while we hear so much these day's on this forum about Poynting supremacy comparing to any other (much cheaper products), they have yet to learn very basic things on errors like many others. This is surprising, really :)
"Basic things on errors" ... like what, specifically ?
 
Adjusting polarisation .... are you sure about that ? That's not what I understand by beam-forming.
Affirmative, it had been used since original GSM. I will post some links after coming back to desktop. Also I think that beam forming is possible in 2x2 MIMO mode as well, so -45/45 is not so critical as we think. :)
"Basic things on errors" ... like what, specifically ?
0/90 degrees specifically. Is not? :)
 
Great thread guys - bit technical for me but I have read it all - understand some of it :-)

I have a question for you guys. I recently got the Huawei B593 router with Telkom mobile LTE. The router without external aerial gets me 2 bars LTE. I have 1 external Poynting A-LPDA-0092 mounted vertically (I only have 1 aerial - since I had Vodacom 3G before) - with this one aerial connected I get 4 bars (and an RSRP of -84.0) (download speeds of around 13677 Kbps and upload of around 6800 Kbps). My aerial is currently pointed towards a Vodacom tower - line of sight) - there may be a Telkom tower there too - not sure (waiting to hear from Telkom).

Now I have been told there is a Telkom tower to my East (in the opposite direction my aerial is pointing now) - I have physically located where it is - problem is I don't have line of sight to this tower (there are roofs, buildings and trees in the way). I have been told that this Telkom tower has bigger bandwidth than the other one (which I havn't located yet).

My question is - which pointing aerial should I get? If I locate the other Telkom tower (which has lower bandwidth than their other tower) but I have line of sight to this tower - do I get another LPDA-0092 and mount it horizontally or do I go for an omnidirectional aerial (and then which one - do I go for one with the highest gain or do I go for one that is compatible with other service providers - just in case). I'm really stuck here and Poynting aren't all that helpful. I'm hoping you guys can help me narrow it down to which aerials to go for. I'm thinking maybe the XPOL-0006 (but that is also directional - and Telkom specific). HELP - please guys.

Thanks
 
You deserve a longer reply but while I have a gap, I'd personally recommend that you get another LPDA-0092; you already have one so a second one really completes a MIMO install for you. Stick to the tower with LOS. A second LPDA-0092 will make a difference.

There simply isn't a more powerful antenna right now so you might as well stick with it. That said, I'm really impressed by the LPDA-0020 and jcheek's results. Going forward, I'm going to recommend this setup to new Telkom Mobile LTE users.
 
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I use Vodacom LTE for gaming via my cellphone tethered to PC in Lonehill, JHB.

I get 3/4 bars LTE (80db using LTE app on Android) when I place my cellphone (Note II) against one specific upstairs window in my house. Everywhere else in the house I get nothing to one bar (100db+) at best and it changes down to HSDPA which is dead slow for some reason. I don't mind leaving the cellphone at the window for LTE when I need it but it isn't ideal.

Should I consider a POYNTING device? Cost? Will it work? It's just for one cellphone so I hope there's an easy solution.

I'd consider a dedicated LTE modem but I need to use my cellphone SIM and it would put me back R1000-00 or more to buy a modem. Plus all the hassle of signing a new contract, proving home address etc...
 
What you really need is a cellular signal booster/amp but these aren't available in SA.

If you're only going to use your cellphone, an antenna isn't really going to help.

A B593 should definitely be considered together with an XPOL-0001 stuck to that window. You can then distribute internet from that room to the rest of the house (another discussion).

What about getting a multi-sim from Vodacom to use in the B593? It'll cost you R9pm and you can then share your main. voice contract data with the B593.
 
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You deserve a longer reply but while I have a gap, I'd personally recommend that you get another LPDA-0092; you already have one so a second one really completes a MIMO install for you. Stick to the tower with LOS. A second LPDA-0092 will make a difference.

There simply isn't a more powerful antenna right now so you might as well stick with it. That said, I'm really impressed by the LPDA-0020 and jcheek's results. Going forward, I'm going to recommend this setup to new Telkom Mobile LTE users.

Thanks for quick reply Azimuth - so in your opinion LOS will yield better results (even if tower outputs lower bandwidth than no LOS tower)? Should I mount the 2 LPDA-0092 aerials at 45/135 angles or one vertical and one horizontal....mmmmm?

I thought maybe an omnidirectional antenna will get me better signal from the higher bandwidth (no LOS) tower but maybe it will get "confused" by having two towers (approximate equal distance from me - I think - as I don't know where the one tower is yet).

I realise you don't have time now for detailed reply - thanks for quick response.
 
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