The Poynting antenna discussion thread

[Teejaybee]

So I just got this from Telkom:

Kindly be advised that you need to Locate the unit on the eastern side of the property near a window to try to get signal from the De_Tijger Site. Parow North has a 30 meg pipe and De_tijger has a 100 meg transmission medium.

I am situated at Jamaica (yellow pin on pic) I have clear line of sight to the Parow North site (T66057) but no line of sight to the De Tyger site (T66305) - pity hey - will it be better to point my aerials to the clear line of sight tower (even though this tower has lower bandwidth)...see pic?

 

[Teejaybee]

How do I load a pic?

 

[jcheek]

Great thread guys - bit technical for me but I have read it all - understand some of it

I have a question for you guys. I recently got the Huawei B593 router with Telkom mobile LTE. The router without external aerial gets me 2 bars LTE. I have 1 external Poynting A-LPDA-0092 mounted vertically (I only have 1 aerial - since I had Vodacom 3G before) - with this one aerial connected I get 4 bars (and an RSRP of -84.0) (download speeds of around 13677 Kbps and upload of around 6800 Kbps). My aerial is currently pointed towards a Vodacom tower - line of sight) - there may be a Telkom tower there too - not sure (waiting to hear from Telkom).

Now I have been told there is a Telkom tower to my East (in the opposite direction my aerial is pointing now) - I have physically located where it is - problem is I don't have line of sight to this tower (there are roofs, buildings and trees in the way). I have been told that this Telkom tower has bigger bandwidth than the other one (which I havn't located yet).

My question is - which pointing aerial should I get? If I locate the other Telkom tower (which has lower bandwidth than their other tower) but I have line of sight to this tower - do I get another LPDA-0092 and mount it horizontally or do I go for an omnidirectional aerial (and then which one - do I go for one with the highest gain or do I go for one that is compatible with other service providers - just in case). I'm really stuck here and Poynting aren't all that helpful. I'm hoping you guys can help me narrow it down to which aerials to go for. I'm thinking maybe the XPOL-0006 (but that is also directional - and Telkom specific). HELP - please guys.

Thanks

I'm going to differ a little with Azimuth on the reasoning, but support him on the conclusion, especially since you already have one LPDA-0092. Stick with the tower you have LOS to, and get the second '92. That should give you two nice strong parallel signals and kick you into LTE speeds.

As regards the possible move to Telkom, I'd recommend you take a drive to the tower you have LOS to and see if perhaps it isn't shared. If MTN is there, there's a good chance Telkom is too. If they are, then it's a no-brainer. For what it's worth, most of the towers in my area are shared, btw.

If you wanted to get service from a tower you don't have LOS to, then the situation's a little less clear. Under those conditions, I think you would probably do better with a twin-omni setup, or with an XPOL like the new XPOL-0002-V2. Personally I think an XPOL-0006 is only justified if you have marginal signal (but don't want an LPDA-0092), and/or you're sure you will only ever be with Telkom.

With all our enthusiasm for LOS and ultimate speed, it's easy to lose sight of one important fact : by going highly directional, you are also "locking yourself in" to one tower. The effective "beam width" on a twin-LPDA array is much narrower than on an XPOL or twin-omni setup, ie it can only really "see" one tower. An antenna system that isn't quite as directional retains the ability of your modem/router to switch to another tower if it offers better signal or the original tower goes offline. It also means you might still be able to "see" another network's tower well enough to get service without having to move the antenna.

Good luck!

 

[jcheek]

Parow North has a 30 meg pipe and De_tijger has a 100 meg transmission medium.

I'm wondering what to make of that statement by Telkom. Does that mean that Parow North and De_Tijger are going to limit each user to 30 and 100Mbps downlink speed respectively ? Seems hard to believe.

 

[Teejaybee]

I'm going to differ a little with Azimuth on the reasoning, but support him on the conclusion, especially since you already have one LPDA-0092. Stick with the tower you have LOS to, and get the second '92. That should give you two nice strong parallel signals and kick you into LTE speeds.

As regards the possible move to Telkom, I'd recommend you take a drive to the tower you have LOS to and see if perhaps it isn't shared. If MTN is there, there's a good chance Telkom is too. If they are, then it's a no-brainer. For what it's worth, most of the towers in my area are shared, btw.

If you wanted to get service from a tower you don't have LOS to, then the situation's a little less clear. Under those conditions, I think you would probably do better with a twin-omni setup, or with an XPOL like the new XPOL-0002-V2. Personally I think an XPOL-0006 is only justified if you have really marginal signal and/or you're sure you will only ever be with Telkom.

With all our enthusiasm for LOS and ultimate speed, it's easy to lose sight of one important fact : by going highly directional, you are also "locking yourself in" to one tower. The effective "beam width" on a twin-LPDA array is much narrower than on an XPOL or twin-omni setup, ie it can only really "see" one tower. An antenna system that isn't quite as directional retains the ability of your modem/router to switch to another tower if it offers better signal or the original tower goes offline. It also means you might still be able to "see" another network's tower well enough to get service without having to move the antenna.

Good luck!

Thanks....you and Azimuth should sell your services to Poynting .....but arrrrggg...your reply is not helping me decide on the aerial. I was leaning towards getting a second LPDA-0092. Ideally I would benefit most by connecting to the larger bandwidth tower but as I said - no LOS - I'm in a hollow and that tower is in a hollow and I can't see it. How do I establish (with some scientific method) if an omidirectional aerial will get me signal from that tower? I am currently with Telkom. How much difference does the gain on an aerial make e.g. XPOL-0002 vs XPOL-0006?

So now what - multidirectional aerial and hope to pick up the bigger bandwidth tower or 2 directional LPDA-0092's aimed at the LOS lower bandwidth tower? How to decide? Decisions.

 

[jcheek]

I use Vodacom LTE for gaming via my cellphone tethered to PC in Lonehill, JHB.

I get 3/4 bars LTE (80db using LTE app on Android) when I place my cellphone (Note II) against one specific upstairs window in my house. Everywhere else in the house I get nothing to one bar (100db+) at best and it changes down to HSDPA which is dead slow for some reason. I don't mind leaving the cellphone at the window for LTE when I need it but it isn't ideal.

Should I consider a POYNTING device? Cost? Will it work? It's just for one cellphone so I hope there's an easy solution.

I'd consider a dedicated LTE modem but I need to use my cellphone SIM and it would put me back R1000-00 or more to buy a modem. Plus all the hassle of signing a new contract, proving home address etc...

What you really need is a cellular signal booster/amp but these aren't available in SA.

If you're only going to use your cellphone, an antenna isn't really going to help.

A B593 should definitely be considered together with an XPOL-0001 stuck to that window. You can then distribute internet from that room to the rest of the house (another discussion).

What about getting a multi-sim from Vodacom to use in the B593? It'll cost you R9pm and you can then share your main. voice contract data with the B593.

With using just a cellphone, you don't really have any antenna options - nowadays on the modern phones (and USB stick modems), the designers have left out the external antenna ports, hence there's no place to connect one!

I think Poynting still sell those passive 3G antenna couplers (like this one) which can be used to connect an antenna to a cellphone (or modem) which doesn't have antenna ports. But to my knowledge there's no "twin-port" LTE version.
You may still find that using one with an antenna improves performance on 3G/HSPA, but the effect for LTE is uncertain. But HSPA/HSPA+ can be pretty damn quick!

In the longer term, best to invest in some kind of modem - preferably one with antenna ports. With ports you have options!

 

[Teejaybee]

I'm wondering what to make of that statement by Telkom. Does that mean that Parow North and De_Tijger are going to limit each user to 30 and 100Mbps downlink speed respectively ? Seems hard to believe.

Yup - one wonders hey...and you get no answer from Telkom.

 

[jcheek]

I was leaning towards getting a second LPDA-0092. Ideally I would benefit most by connecting to the larger bandwidth tower but as I said - no LOS - I'm in a hollow and that tower is in a hollow and I can't see it. How do I establish (with some scientific method) if an omidirectional aerial will get me signal from that tower? I am currently with Telkom. How much difference does the gain on an aerial make e.g. XPOL-0002 vs XPOL-0006?

So now what - multidirectional aerial and hope to pick up the bigger bandwidth tower or 2 directional LPDA-0092's aimed at the LOS lower bandwidth tower? How to decide? Decisions.

If it were me, I'd say get the second '92 and stick with the tower you can *see* (in fact, I *did* say that ).

If you can manage it, mount them at 45/135. Since you already get 13-odd Mbps with one antenna, I'd say you're virtually certain to get double that with a dual-92 setup. If the 30Mbps "limit" is real, you'll probably hit it, but an upgrade (similar to the other tower) may very well be in the pipeline.

Bottom line : I think the LOS tower is a virtual cert, the non-LOS one is a gamble.

 

[Teejaybee]

If it were me, I'd say get the second '92 and stick with the tower you can *see* (in fact, I *did* say that ).

If you can manage it, mount them at 45/135. Since you already get 13-odd Mbps with one antenna, I'd say you're virtually certain to get double that with a dual-92 setup. If the 30Mbps "limit" is real, you'll probably hit it, but an upgrade (similar to the other tower) is probably in the pipeline.

Bottom line : I think the LOS tower is a virtual cert, the non-LOS one is a gamble.

Yes you did say that - ha ha - and then politely went on to "confuse" me with your "theory" of a multidirectional aerial's capabilities.....but it's all good. I'm going to take your and Azimuth's expert advice and go with a second LPDA-0092.

Would mounting it at 45/135 give better results than 1 horizontal and 1 vertical? - if so - why?

How do I embed photo's (I used the url link but it didn't embed the pic). I would like to provide feedback with pic's and results of all my efforts - before any aerial - with just one LPDA-0092 and with 2 LPDA-0092's so others can benefit going forward.

 

[jcheek]

Yes you did say that - ha ha - and then politely went on to "confuse" me with your "theory" of a multidirectional aerial's capabilities.....but it's all good. I'm going to take your and Azimuth's expert advice and go with a second LPDA-0092.

I was not trying to confuse you, rather just making you aware that ultimate speed (as obtained with directional antennas) may come at the cost of limited tower options.

Would mounting it at 45/135 give better results than 1 horizontal and 1 vertical? - if so - why?

For 45/135 versus 0/90, see post #30. Both will work.
The hardware for a 0/90 install (BRKT-0017-01)is easier to come by. That new 45/135 bracket shown in post #30 may not be that easy to get, yet.

How do I embed photo's (I used the url link but it didn't embed the pic).

When replying, go "Advanced Mode", hit the "insert image" icon, choose "From Computer", then hit "Upload file". You should get this effect when the upload completes and you preview your post:

I would like to provide feedback with pic's and results of all my efforts - before any aerial - with just one LPDA-0092 and with 2 LPDA-0092's so others can benefit going forward.

Great! Please do.

 

[Teejaybee]

Excellent - thank you!

 

[sajunky]

Thanks....you and Azimuth should sell your services to Poynting .....but arrrrggg...your reply is not helping me decide on the aerial. I was leaning towards getting a second LPDA-0092. Ideally I would benefit most by connecting to the larger bandwidth tower but as I said - no LOS - I'm in a hollow and that tower is in a hollow and I can't see it. How do I establish (with some scientific method) if an omidirectional aerial will get me signal from that tower? I am currently with Telkom. How much difference does the gain on an aerial make e.g. XPOL-0002 vs XPOL-0006?

Gain is not only a factor. Elimination of multipath (aka ghosts on analog TV) is the biggest advantage of directional antenna. So I would stick with directional variety (if you decide on the second one).

Regarding replies prefering LOS over the tower recommended by Telkom, I have different opinion. Even you get good performance from LOS using two antennas, it can change soon when more people start using LTE devices.

In addition, 2x2 MIMO works the best in optimal signal condition. Your signal is not so good and might be not negotiated at all. The best advice is to test by yourself. If you want maximize results, second antenna is going to help, but don't count on 2x2 MIMO. There were experiments in the past on this forum by ginggs with receive diversity on HSPA+ modem (1x2 MIMO), which lead to significant increase in speed. I am too lazy to find these posts. Second antenna can be positioned in different direction to pickup reflections and let receive diversity mechanism pickup error-free data frames from any antenna, or even from different tower. Yes, different tower.

 

[Azimuth]

It's days like today that I'm glad I took my LPDA-0092's down. The wind is *pumping*! My XPOL-0002 in comparison is nice and snug in it's current position.

 

[Teejaybee]

Gain is not only a factor. Elimination of multipath (aka ghosts on analog TV) is the biggest advantage of directional antenna. So I would stick with directional variety (if you decide on the second one).

Regarding replies prefering LOS over the tower recommended by Telkom, I have different opinion. Even you get good performance from LOS using two antennas, it can change soon when more people start using LTE devices.

In addition, 2x2 MIMO works the best in optimal signal condition. Your signal is not so good and might be not negotiated at all. The best advice is to test by yourself. If you want maximize results, second antenna is going to help, but don't count on 2x2 MIMO. There were experiments in the past on this forum by ginggs with receive diversity on HSPA+ modem (1x2 MIMO), which lead to significant increase in speed. I am too lazy to find these posts. Second antenna can be positioned in different direction to pickup reflections and let receive diversity mechanism pickup error-free data frames from any antenna, or even from different tower. Yes, different tower.

Thanks - not sure I understand everything you're saying. Are you saying an omnidirectional aerial may get me better results by picking up signal from the tower that has bigger bandwidth (even though I don't have line of sight to that tower)? Why do you say 2x2 MIMO (do you mean I would need two omnidirectional aerials - doesn't make sense to me)?

 

[Teejaybee]

It's days like today that I'm glad I took my LPDA-0092's down. The wind is *pumping*! My XPOL-0002 in comparison is nice and snug in it's current position.

Aaahhh stop now Azimuth.....you're going to "confuse" me .....you say this just when I was going to go buy my second LPDA-0092 on Monday....and the wind can pump here in CT too.

I did some tests this morning - with the 2 paddle aerials that come with the router and then with the 1 external aerial - think I should wait to complete my tests with the second external aerial before I post results here....or I could post what I have so far?

 

[sajunky]

Thanks - not sure I understand everything you're saying. Are you saying an omnidirectional aerial may get me better results by picking up signal from the tower that has bigger bandwidth (even though I don't have line of sight to that tower)? Why do you say 2x2 MIMO (do you mean I would need two omnidirectional aerials - doesn't make sense to me)?

Sorry for my English, just in reverse:

Gain is not only a factor. Elimination of multipath (aka ghosts on analog TV) is the biggest advantage of directional antenna. So I would stick with directional variety (if you decide on the second one).

If you still doubt, see what effect gives "bunny ear" antenna on TV screen and how it compares to the roof antenna installation.

 

[Teejaybee]

No problem - thank you!

 

[jcheek]

LPDA-0020 trial install results

OK, so here's a summary of the results of my trial install of a twin Poynting LPDA-0020 antenna array on the Huawei B593 modem/router using Telkom Mobile :

Best result using B593 internal antennas:
Signal bars on B593 display : 3, occasionally 4
Signal : RSSI = -55.0dBm, RSRP=-82.0dBm, RSRQ=-6.0dB
Speedtest result : Downlink = 35.44Mbps, Uplink=8.33Mbps, Ping=30ms

Best result using twin-LPDA-0020 antenna array:
Signal bars on B593 display : solid 5
Signal : RSSI = -48.0dBm, RSRP=-74.0dBm, RSRQ=-6.0dB
Speedtest result : Downlink = 72.28Mbps, Uplink=8.30Mbps, Ping=20ms

Antenna details:
Antennas: 2 x Poynting LPDA-0020 (old "V1" design), mounted orthogonally at 45 and 135 degrees
Cables: 2 x HDF-195, 8m each (5+3m joined with N-type connectors), SMA(male) connectors both ends.
Line-of-sight distance to tower : 1.3km (I think - difficult to be sure which tower you're actually connecting to)

Note that the additional 7dBm of "raw" signal (RSSI) provided by the LPDA antennas doesn't look that significant on the logarithmic dB scale, but in fact that represents a massive increase : almost 5 times greater signal.
The increase in the more significant RSRP is even better at 8dBm.
The improvement in the connection stability and downlink speed is dramatic.

Some pics:


Yup, I really dig drag the B593 and my precious Dell laptop up onto the roof! :erm:


Sweet.


Sweeter.


Sweetest : the moment when you see that infamous speedo twist round deep into the red


Paydirt!

Hope this serves as some inspiration to all of you contemplating the same experiment. Enjoy!

 

[Azimuth]

Fantastic post, jcheek, thanks a mill for sharing. It surprises me that, in a Facebook world, people are shy to share *visual* posts.

We are visual creatures. Please, people, spare us the walls and walls of text (of course where appropriate then there is nothing wrong with it).

Off topic: I am impressed with the photography, which camera?

It's positive to see that by lengthening cables, the signal does not fall through the ground. The rule is to keep the signal cables as short as possible BUT where one needs extra length, it's okay to join extra cable.

I had the same positive results with my original LPDA-0092 install and 7m + 5m extension. (0.8dBm loss per metre; before -69dBM, after -73dBm) Key is also using high quality HDF195 as Poynting does.

I know you have plans with earthing your installation considering the 3m mast on your roof. When will that come to fruition?

 

[jcheek]

Fantastic post, jcheek, thanks a mill for sharing. It surprises me that, in a Facebook world, people are shy to share *visual* posts.
We are visual creatures. Please, people, spare us the walls and walls of text (of course where appropriate then there is nothing wrong with it).

Thanks! Glad you added the "people" ... lol .. I almost took that personally ;-)
I'm looking forward to hearing (and seeing!) how Teejaybee fares with his '92 install.

Off topic: I am impressed with the photography, which camera?

Still off-topic: Thanks again. That's my "baby" camera, though still a very capable one. It's a Sony DSC-HX200V. The Zeiss optics are outstanding for a compact camera. Not quite as good as its predecessor, the DSC-HX100V - the designers (needlessly) added more pixels at the expense of sensor performance. Unfortunately some nice person relieved me of the HX100 a while back.

It's positive to see that by lengthening cables, the signal does not fall through the ground. The rule is to keep the signal cables as short as possible BUT where one needs extra length, it's okay to join extra cable. I had the same positive results with my original LPDA-0092 install and 7m + 5m extension. (0.8dBm loss per metre; before -69dBM, after -73dBm)

Yup, a lot can be done to manage losses when you have no option but to use long cables. The HDF-195 cable that Poynting uses is not bad. The real McCoy LMR-195 from Times Wireless is a little better at 0.624dB/m loss at 2.5GHz. For my final install, I'll be using the marginally thicker (6mm vs 5mm) LMR-240, which should give around 0.424dB/m loss at the same frequency. Over 10m that's an extra 4dB over the HDF-195, on paper at least. That at least is one advantage of the "old V1" LPDA-0020 - having a connector on the antenna.

I know you have plans with earthing your installation considering the 3m mast on your roof. When will that come to fruition?

Probably only in the next week(end) or three.
Unfortunately I only get to work on this stuff 2 days outta 7 :-(