The Poynting antenna discussion thread

Great post jcheek........my results shall be posted soon....looks like I have found a brand new LPDA-0092 on Gumtree - hoping to get it today and then get brackets tomorrow to install it horizontally (my other one is vertical). Would installing it at 45/135 degrees make a difference? (assuming those brackets are available).

I'm also wondering if download speeds are limited to the bandwidth that the tower is outputting? (refer my earlier thread where Telkom have 2 towers in my area - one putting out 100Mb and the other 30Mb).....mmmmm I wonder?

Watch this space.....
 
jcheek said:
Yup, a lot can be done to manage losses when you have no option but to use long cables. The HDF-195 cable that Poynting uses is not bad. The real McCoy LMR-195 from Times Wireless is a little better at 0.624dB/m loss at 2.5GHz. For my final install, I'll be using the marginally thicker (6mm vs 5mm) LMR-240, which should give around 0.424dB/m loss at the same frequency. Over 10m that's an extra 4dB over the HDF-195, on paper at least. That at least is one advantage of the "old V1" LPDA-0020 - having a connector on the antenna.
Click to expand...

There is better cable than HDF195? I need to look into this! I'd like to see Poynting offer the options you refer to, as well as HDF195.
 
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Teejaybee said:
Great post jcheek........my results shall be posted soon....looks like I have found a brand new LPDA-0092 on Gumtree - hoping to get it today and then get brackets tomorrow ...
Click to expand...
Great news!

Teejaybee said:
... then get brackets tomorrow to install it horizontally (my other one is vertical). Would installing it at 45/135 degrees make a difference? (assuming those brackets are available).
Click to expand...
In theory 45/135 should give you slightly better performance IF you have direct line-of-sight to the tower which you've selected (which I think you do?).
How much better - to be honest, I don't know - I don't have comparable results for a 0/90 install. I would guess the difference would be small - 10%, maybe 20%.
Since you already have a vertical '92, I would just add the horizontal one for now. Minimise your outlay and risk for the moment, by seeing roughly how the setup performs first - you can fine-tune it later.

Teejaybee said:
I'm also wondering if download speeds are limited to the bandwidth that the tower is outputting? (refer my earlier thread where Telkom have 2 towers in my area - one putting out 100Mb and the other 30Mb).....mmmmm I wonder?
Click to expand...
The tower doesn't "output a bandwidth" per se. It has a backhaul link (an "incoming data pipe") of a certain capacity to Telkom's internet backbone - probably many many Gbps. That incoming capacity gets divided up between the number of users connected at any given time.
To give a simplified (and arbitrary) example : if the incoming pipe to the tower has a 10Gbps downlink capacity, and there are 100 users connected at a given moment, then each user will have a maximum of 100Mbps available at that moment (100 x 100Mbps = 10Gbps, more or less).
In practise, each user is also constrained by the maximum speed of his or her connection, so while everybody might have access to 100Mbps in theory, user Teejaybee - with his awesome LTE setup - will be able to get 50% of his 100Mbps chunk while user Plonker - with a 3G connection - will only manage 10Mbps.
It's not quite that simple, but you get the idea.
LTE is theoretically capable of downlink speeds well over 100Mbps. The network operators may choose to "limit" each user to a lower figure so as to distribute the available capacity more fairly.

Those 30Mbps and 100Mbps "pipes" which Telkom mentions can't possibly refer to the backhaul capacity, I don't think (way too small). So I can only assume Telkom may be limiting each user to 30 or 100Mbps on those two towers they mention. 100Mbps limit is believable; 30Mbps .. not so much. If that is the case, then you may well hit the 30Mbps limit on the LOS tower.
But hey, there's nothing wrong with a 30Mbps connection, particularly if it's stable and consistent!
 
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Azimuth said:
There is better cable than HDF195? I need to look into this! I'd like to see Poynting offer the options you refer to, as well as HDF195.
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Oh yeah, there are literally hundreds of different types. "Better" is specific to the circumstances - with coax cable you are always juggling maximum usable frequency, losses, outer diameter and cost. Broadly speaking, thicker coax (bigger OD) has a higher usable frequency, lower losses at a given frequency, and higher cost.

To illustrate:
RG-174 is often used around portable devices like modems and car kits because it's nice and thin (under 3mm OD) and hence very flexible.
The downside is that it's very lossy : around 1.2dB/m at 2GHz. On a 10m run it would completely wipe out the gain achieved by a 9dB antenna, so its only ever used in short lengths.

At the other end of the scale, you could use LMR-900 cable : only 0.086dB/m loss at 2 GHz . But it costs a small fortune and the OD is around 22mm so you'd have trouble terminating it into an SMA connector :D
It would typically be used around a base station like this one :

Antenna-cable-cut.jpg

LMR-195 and LMR-240 are nicely in the middle for residential/small-business installations. HDF-195 is a nice compromise and well-priced - perfectly good up to about 5-10m runs.
 
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@ jcheek - thanks for sharing your knowledge - much appreciated. I just got back from buying a brand new Poynting LPDA-0092 via Gumtree ..... going to Poynting tomorrow to get horizontal mounting bracket and will then install and do some tests. My current aerial is mounted on an existing tv aerial mast and I have the normal 7m cable with a 5m extension but I plan to mount a new bracket so that I can get rid of the 5m extension and just use the 7m cable. Results to be posted here soon.
 
Teejaybee said:
@ jcheek - thanks for sharing your knowledge - much appreciated. I just got back from buying a brand new Poynting LPDA-0092 via Gumtree ..... going to Poynting tomorrow to get horizontal mounting bracket and will then install and do some tests. My current aerial is mounted on an existing tv aerial mast and I have the normal 7m cable with a 5m extension but I plan to mount a new bracket so that I can get rid of the 5m extension and just use the 7m cable. Results to be posted here soon.
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My pleasure - I hope the guidelines work as well for you as they have for several of us. Good luck!

If you haven't already done so, be sure to check out Azimuth's dual LPDA-0092 install pics and/or pick his brain about spacing and other aspects. He has a wealth of experience and practical advice around the '92 which I don't.
The thread with most of his install pics and write-ups is here.
 
Teejaybee said:
Would installing it at 45/135 degrees make a difference?
Click to expand...
Yes, but only if you point antenna towards LOS tower, signal quality is good enough to negotiate 2x2 MIMO successfully and tower is not congested. If tower is heavily loaded, managing software might prefer to allocate orthogonal beam to some other user instead (not for you).
In 1x2 MIMO mode it is irrelevant. You can achieve 50Mbps in this mode.
 
jcheek said:
My pleasure - I hope the guidelines work as well for you as they have for several of us. Good luck!

If you haven't already done so, be sure to check out Azimuth's dual LPDA-0092 install pics and/or pick his brain about spacing and other aspects. He has a wealth of experience and practical advice around the '92 which I don't.
The thread with most of his install pics and write-ups is here.
Click to expand...

Thanks again...busy reading his setup now.
 
sajunky said:
Yes, but only if you point antenna towards LOS tower, signal quality is good enough to negotiate 2x2 MIMO successfully and tower is not congested. If tower is heavily loaded, managing software might prefer to allocate orthogonal beam to some other user instead (not for you).
In 1x2 MIMO mode it is irrelevant. You can achieve 50Mbps in this mode.
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Thanks
 
Borrowed a 300mm lens today so got a nice shot of the Laerskool Helderkruin MTN tower (Cell_ID 174) and my antenna installation from the boundary wall.

DSC02198.jpg

DSC02201.jpg

DSC02203.jpg
 
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Thanks for the 'neat' comment. I try. :p

Bear in mind the 300mm zoom lens creates a lot of deception! That tower is 1622m away but yes, I have beautiful clear LOS.

Edit: old distance measurement of 1.36km was inaccurate.

I actually have quite a stunning vista from my place. On the roof it spans around 270 degrees. I'm yet to identify other viable towers. When I spotted this one some 9 months ago it became a burning beacon to me - can never miss it.

I'm keen to identify other viable towers just for the heck of it. I will be sure to document these should I find any.
 
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Azimuth said:
Thanks for the 'neat' comment. I try. :p

Bear in mind the 300mm zoom lens creates a lot of deception! That tower is 1.36km away but yes, I have beautiful clear LOS

I actually have quite a stunning vista from my place. On the roof it spans around 270 degrees. I'm yet to identify other viable towers. When I spotted this one some 9 months ago it became a burning beacon to me - can never miss it.

I'm keen to identify other viable towers just for the heck of it. I will be sure to document these should I find any.
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Aren't you keen to try the LPDA-0020?

I have read the thread that jcheek referred me to - the one where you give info on aerial installations and that guy who had his aerial professionally installed etc......just a few questions if I may....posting here so that it may help any others in a similar position.

Jcheek suggested I contact you - hope you don't mind. I'm going to install my second 0092 today and was wondering if you have any advice for me please - things like:

1. How far apart must they be from each other on the pole? I read previous posts where it says approx 0.5m apart but then I saw the post about it's better if they are closer together if installing in a built-up area?
2. Does it matter which one is on top - horizontal or vertical (I wouldn't think it matters)?
3. Must they both be exactly aligned and both pointing directly at the tower - or is there some benefit in slightly offsetting one from the other?

Anything else?

Thanks again for your valuable advice - I really appreciate it.

TJB
 
Mr TJB - if you please - use the word "antenna". Thank you kindly. :p

My proper reply to follow in a bit.
 
Teejaybee said:
Aren't you keen to try the LPDA-0020?
Click to expand...

I don't think the exercise warrants the time/effort to be honest. I'm very satisfied with my XPOL-0002 (v1). However, I may do a LPDA-0020 installation update in Wilgeheuwel (someone else's installation) soon and will post feedback on that.

Teejaybee said:
I'm going to install my second 0092 today and was wondering if you have any advice for me please - things like:

1. How far apart must they be from each other on the pole? I read previous posts where it says approx 0.5m apart but then I saw the post about it's better if they are closer together if installing in a built-up area?
2. Does it matter which one is on top - horizontal or vertical (I wouldn't think it matters)?
3. Must they both be exactly aligned and both pointing directly at the tower - or is there some benefit in slightly offsetting one from the other?

Anything else?

Thanks again for your valuable advice - I really appreciate it.

TJB
Click to expand...

A1: This has come up a few times and I'd like to offer the following: experiment. Poynting personally told me 0.5m but in my own installation my antennas were closer and they still worked well. Other users have also used closer spacing and had perfect results. Edit: technically one needs to use closer spacing in a dense urban area and wider in a rural area.

Marakker said:
TLDR; My installation is okay.

G&E Project Management sent an inquiry to Poynting about proper antennae spacing for LTE installations and we received feedback today.
Have a look at this youtube clip Poynting LTE and read the first comment made by Andre Fourie, CEO of Poynting.

And I quote:
"In a very built up environment where the wave will experience many reflections good spatial de-correlation can be achieved with the antennas moderately close to each other. In a rural environment the physical spacing would have to be greater in order to achieve the same de-correlation.
Typical spacing between the antennas should be ½ wavelength and 2 wavelengths:

At 900 MHZ the wavelength is 30 cm
At 1800 MHz the wavelength is 16 cm
At 2700 MHz the wavelength is 11 cm.

A good de-correlation between antennas is required so that each antenna is able to receive a different signal at the same frequency."
Click to expand...

A2: It doesn't matter, no.

A3: They should be perfectly aligned on top of each other and thus pointing at the same tower. This was an installation instruction from Poynting themselves. Other professional installations do the same.

As for any benefits of point each antenna at different towers, I'm not so sure. I hope Poynting themselves will answer this question soon because they are joining the forums, thanks to my and jcheek's badgering. :p

Anything else? Well, consider that wherever you opt to install the antennas is where your LTE router needs to be. I found that the attached 7m of cable didn't reach down into my house once my 3m pole was all the way up. I used 5m extensions which didn't degrade signal too badly (-69dBm before and -73dBm after). So just make that part of your planning. Also note like with all coaxial, don't make sharp bends in the cable.

You may also want to secure the antenna installation against electric storms and static discharge. For direct strikes, a horizontally mounted pipe across the top of the pole should help. Then of course there's the actual earth spikes. Our friend jcheek did something very interesting and installed in-line surge suppression to protect his B593 LTE CPE. I'll ask him to post more on that.
 
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Thank you kindly Sir....and yes I stand corrected....antenna it is :D

I look forward to hearing about jcheek's in-line surge suppression. We don't have much lightning here in CT but occasionally we do have some - I have visions of running and unscrewing the antenna's from the Huawei (and we know that takes some finesse - works well using tweezers).

I was wondering about static build up but I see on the antenna installation instructions they mention and I quote: "Please note that this antenna has an integrated DC short at the bracket end, this ensures no static buildup in the antenna and also provides additional lightning protection."

I may go the whole earthing the installation route - not sure at this stage though.
 
Note if you haven't already done so, don't get extension cables yet. If you use in-line surge suppression, you will need to order custom made cables with the surge suppression part.
 
Not sure how you guys feel but I had planned for this to be more a Q&A on antennas with actual installation and alignment posts here: Cellular antenna installation and alignment

The above thread isn't a Poynting thread and can in fact be vendor agnostic.

I know we've already set about posting pictures here but there's been no installation methodology or alignment science.
 
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With this particular installation I need to decide on an appropriate Poynting product that supports 2300MHz (Telkom Mobile LTE).

I wonder if I should ask Poynting if I can test three products against each other? The LPDA-0020 (from jcheek's installation it seems the ultimate for Telkom Mobile LTE), the XPOL-06 or twin OMNI-0069's.

While it seems clear that there is NLOS I have to wonder about signal reflection from those hills.
 
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