The Proteas - Our Team!

stefan9 said:
Watson and Yuvraj were the 5th bowler for those teams they weren't added extras. Both ab and rillee could turn their arms over if really needed. In odi's you need the batting depth.
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Couldn't agree more. We used to be a great ODI side not just because of the inclusion of Kallis or Klusener, but because we had Pollock coming in at 7 and Klusener at 8 (and sometimes even Symcox at 9). That is huge batting depth...
 
Rusty0 said:
Hes done well opening with Amla. Im happy about it, I just dont want to see him fail and get blamed. Hes inexperienced for the big WC.
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I would say horrible start, recovered extremely well, and now found out so much he won't be effective enough. Same thing happened to AB remember but AB was much older and skillful hence accomodated lower down the order. Will they persist with QdK failing if the likes of Davy Jacobs, MvW, Vilas, Kuhn, Mosehle & Rudi Second hit a serious purple patch in domestic? I think not. I believe they must secure his future right now by relieving him of opening duties totally!

How much confidence will be evident in the upcoming ODI with WI, i hoe WI play their WC squad, Gayle, Pollard, Narine... that will open up holes in the side.
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Is Narine cleared to play? I haven't seen the UAE&WI squads. Does anyone have a link?

I think we're overlooking the fact that allcomers are smacking even Steyn around, so I'm sure someone can single-handedly get hold of Morkel/Philander even and bat us out of the match on any day e.g. Dwayne Smith or Andre Russell for the WI. Then of course there's Gayle&Pollard. Throw Narine&Roach into the mix, plus Dwayne Bravo, Samuels&Sammy, and you've got World Cup contenders if they discussed pay issues.

Im just looking at idiots that will lose the cup. Is Rilee, Faf, Miller, Morkel match winners? I dont think so.
Chance of all 3, Rilee, Miller and Faf failing in one game is quite high.
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That list can grow longer - JP, Philander, Tahir.

I mentioned about 8 players who can single-handedly win a match for the WI. All of them are fearless, unorthodox players 7 of them regular allrounders ... yet only two of them were part of the Test series (which puts our "dominant" Test series win in context too). Anyway, with all due respect to Amla&Steyn, we only have ONE player who can be termed a match winner in ODIs. That's AB de Villiers. Having said that how many times exactly has he been a match winner. When we collapse he's dropped lower down the order only for him to come in and fail. When we get a good start he's not promoted up the order to accelerate further, but remains rooted at 5 then runs out of balls or falls recklessly. Bottomline is we don't have matchwinners so no CWC win possible. (I consider Tsotsobe a matchwinner by the way;)).

Try coming up with a list of potential matchwinners for each country in the World Cup and I can't see how the Proteas won't be among the bottom 6/7 teams. Is that Jacob Oram nodding?
 
ZCFOutkast said:
I would say horrible start, recovered extremely well, and now found out so much he won't be effective enough. Same thing happened to AB remember but AB was much older and skillful hence accomodated lower down the order. Will they persist with QdK failing if the likes of Davy Jacobs, MvW, Vilas, Kuhn, Mosehle & Rudi Second hit a serious purple patch in domestic? I think not. I believe they must secure his future right now by relieving him of opening duties totally!

Is Narine cleared to play? I haven't seen the UAE&WI squads. Does anyone have a link?

I think we're overlooking the fact that allcomers are smacking even Steyn around, so I'm sure someone can single-handedly get hold of Morkel/Philander even and bat us out of the match on any day e.g. Dwayne Smith or Andre Russell for the WI. Then of course there's Gayle&Pollard. Throw Narine&Roach into the mix, plus Dwayne Bravo, Samuels&Sammy, and you've got World Cup contenders if they discussed pay issues.

That list can grow longer - JP, Philander, Tahir.

I mentioned about 8 players who can single-handedly win a match for the WI. All of them are fearless, unorthodox players 7 of them regular allrounders ... yet only two of them were part of the Test series (which puts our "dominant" Test series win in context too). Anyway, with all due respect to Amla&Steyn, we only have ONE player who can be termed a match winner in ODIs. That's AB de Villiers. Having said that how many times exactly has he been a match winner. When we collapse he's dropped lower down the order only for him to come in and fail. When we get a good start he's not promoted up the order to accelerate further, but remains rooted at 5 then runs out of balls or falls recklessly. Bottomline is we don't have matchwinners so no CWC win possible. (I consider Tsotsobe a matchwinner by the way;)).

Try coming up with a list of potential matchwinners for each country in the World Cup and I can't see how the Proteas won't be among the bottom 6/7 teams. Is that Jacob Oram nodding?
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Besides for the Lopsy comment (good bowler but far from a match winner), this is one of the very few occasions i agree with you. Personally i think the weakest link in our ODI batting is Miller. Morne van Wyk needs to bat in his place, or Farhaan which gives us another bowler.
Amla and AB is our only real batsman, QDK might surprise. i have absolutely no faith in Faf or Miller. JP is good at number 6. I'm still not sure about Rillee, he is a quality batsman but has played to little and had a real bad start to ODI's. I know Mckenzie is old, but at 39 he is still a class player with loads of experience and won't disappoint.

1.Amla
2.Mckenzie
3.AB
4.QDK
5.Van Wyk
6.JP
7.Mclaren/Morris/Farhaan
8.Big V
9.Steyn
10.Morkel
11.Tahir
 
Lament said:
I know Mckenzie is old, but at 39 he is still a class player with loads of experience and won't disappoint.
2.Mckenzie
3.AB
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You trust the old man more against the new ball than AB or you're just being cruel? Even at the Lions he fancies #4 more.

But you came up with a great yet very left-field option. Mckenzie is a joy to watch. Could've been the Proteas' answer to Mahela. I'm not really sure what happened. Maybe they focused more on him in Test terms than LOI terms hence he failed. I just think he's a happy man, carefree out in the middle. Its reflected in his game.

NB: Over such a small number of games yet so many 4 wickets per match, mostly top order since that's where he gets them, I think it's harsh to say Tsotsobe is not a match winner! From his 61 matches, he's taken 3 or more wickets 13 times, and we've only lost 2 of those matches. Not even Steyn is that good you know. In 93 ODIs he's taken 3 or more wickets just 18 times (Morkel 21 in 87). Very poor returns for such a great bowler don't you think? Tsotsobe would have to be very poor to not surpass that by some distance. If you look closely you'll find that over the duration of his career - alongside Steyn, Morkel, Philander, Langeveldt etc Tsotsobe has stood head and shoulders above the others. That's no exaggeration. His bowling has been responsible for a lot of the wins. Even if you drop that down to 2 wickets he still has a better Strike-Rate & Average than Steyn.

I don't know why people deny credit where it's due! Face it he has been the best bowler. The difference is when Morkel&Steyn have a bad game i.e. go at 7/8 an over (upfront or at the death) people write it off as an odd bad game but those "odd bad games" have happened so many times you wonder if people deliberately ignore them but remember them in the case of others Rory, Tsotsobe, Philander etc. I have a very strong feeling that while Tsotsobe has played 61 matches for the Proteas, Domingo&Hudson are not the only two South Africans who've missed every single game!
 
ZCFOutkast said:
You trust the old man more against the new ball than AB or you're just being cruel? Even at the Lions he fancies #4 more.

But you came up with a great yet very left-field option. Mckenzie is a joy to watch. Could've been the Proteas' answer to Mahela. I'm not really sure what happened. Maybe they focused more on him in Test terms than LOI terms hence he failed. I just think he's a happy man, carefree out in the middle. Its reflected in his game.

NB: Over such a small number of games yet so many 4 wickets per match, mostly top order since that's where he gets them, I think it's harsh to say Tsotsobe is not a match winner! From his 61 matches, he's taken 3 or more wickets 13 times, and we've only lost 2 of those matches. Not even Steyn is that good you know. In 93 ODIs he's taken 3 or more wickets just 18 times (Morkel 21 in 87). Very poor returns for such a great bowler don't you think? Tsotsobe would have to be very poor to not surpass that by some distance. If you look closely you'll find that over the duration of his career - alongside Steyn, Morkel, Philander, Langeveldt etc Tsotsobe has stood head and shoulders above the others. That's no exaggeration. His bowling has been responsible for a lot of the wins. Even if you drop that down to 2 wickets he still has a better Strike-Rate & Average than Steyn.

I don't know why people deny credit where it's due! Face it he has been the best bowler. The difference is when Morkel&Steyn have a bad game i.e. go at 7/8 an over (upfront or at the death) people write it off as an odd bad game but those "odd bad games" have happened so many times you wonder if people deliberately ignore them but remember them in the case of others Rory, Tsotsobe, Philander etc. I have a very strong feeling that while Tsotsobe has played 61 matches for the Proteas, Domingo&Hudson are not the only two South Africans who've missed every single game!
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Lopsy's stats looks very impressive, yes. And he is a good bowler (much better than Rory and Parnel), and i will not complain if he is in the team, he can be very unlucky he is not in the squad.
The only issue i have ever had with him is that he looks lazy, he bowls 4 overs and it looks like he is on the verge of dying.
But i will still not say he is a match winner, he had a wonderfull start to ODI's, there was a time his average was something like 16, then he had a very very bad run and that increased to 24, he is not a threatening bowler (and you are going to argue, but honestly, can you really tell me that he strikes fear into anyone?) and can be very inconsistent at times. But same can be said for Steyn and Morkel as you mentioned, When Lopsy bowls good, he bowls VERY good. But when he bowls bad..........
But all and all, he can be very unlucky to not have made the squad. He should have been in the place of Aaron Phangiso.
 
We need a long batting line up. 5th bowler makeup could be Duminy and Behardien

Hashim Amla
Quinton de Kock
Faf du Plessis
AB de Villiers
Rilee Rossouw
JP Duminy
Farhaan Behardien
Kyle Abbott/Vernon Philander
Dale Steyn
Morne Morkel
Imran Tahir
 
Lament said:
But all and all, he can be very unlucky to not have made the squad. He should have been in the place of Aaron Phangiso.
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But Phangiso is not the worst bowler in the squad. Abbott is.

Morris, McLaren, Tsotsobe, Rory etc missed out on selection not because of Phangiso but Abbott.

This is the world cup. CA are not in charge of the pitches entirely. The ICC is. With India, SL, Pak, WI&BD involved you can be certain most of the pitches will favour spin just as much pace. With all due respect to JP, it would be foolish to go into a WC minus a second specialist spinner, so there is absolutely no way Phangiso would have been left out. Tahir can easily be smashed heavily in one or two of the games leaving us with no alternatives.

Judging from the Tests matches Ind&Aus have played, spin will play a big role in this World Cup! NZ are hosting SL too and batting has had as much success as pace which means it's not entirely seamer friendly so good spinners can get results. There is a very short turn-around time between the Tests and the Triangular taking place ther just before the WC. Not enough time to overhaul the pitches to suit AUS&NZ as home teams. So basically whatever drop-in pitches from the ICC tha may be brought in, will see some balance between seam&spin.

So please guys let's leave Phangiso out of this. He earned his spot in the team and his selection is justified logically, tactically and statistically. The only odd man out is Kyle Abbott. He is the only one whose numbers don't stack up plain&simple, plus he showed little positive in the recent tour there. Why is he there? I am yet to receive a sound answer from anyone beyond suppositions. We have taken a bowler who needs two matches to earn a single wicket, while his economy rate has only 1 run advantage compared to the others. Saving 10 runs is not equal to the two wickets the worst among his peers can get based on their Strike Rates. Why is Kyle Abbott there?
 
ZCFOutkast said:
But Phangiso is not the worst bowler in the squad. Abbott is.

Morris, McLaren, Tsotsobe, Rory etc missed out on selection not because of Phangiso but Abbott.

This is the world cup. CA are not in charge of the pitches entirely. The ICC is. With India, SL, Pak, WI&BD involved you can be certain most of the pitches will favour spin just as much pace. With all due respect to JP, it would be foolish to go into a WC minus a second specialist spinner, so there is absolutely no way Phangiso would have been left out. Tahir can easily be smashed heavily in one or two of the games leaving us with no alternatives.

Judging from the Tests matches Ind&Aus have played, spin will play a big role in this World Cup! NZ are hosting SL too and batting has had as much success as pace which means it's not entirely seamer friendly so good spinners can get results. There is a very short turn-around time between the Tests and the Triangular taking place ther just before the WC. Not enough time to overhaul the pitches to suit AUS&NZ as home teams. So basically whatever drop-in pitches from the ICC tha may be brought in, will see some balance between seam&spin.

So please guys let's leave Phangiso out of this. He earned his spot in the team and his selection is justified logically, tactically and statistically. The only odd man out is Kyle Abbott. He is the only one whose numbers don't stack up plain&simple, plus he showed little positive in the recent tour there. Why is he there? I am yet to receive a sound answer from anyone beyond suppositions. We have taken a bowler who needs two matches to earn a single wicket, while his economy rate has only 1 run advantage compared to the others. Saving 10 runs is not equal to the two wickets the worst among his peers can get based on their Strike Rates. Why is Kyle Abbott there?
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He is there because he is a brilliant bowler, he has lots of control over the ball and has only played 9 ODI's. Look at his first class record, he is a class bowler. Sorry if his 9 ODI's does not show that, his 232 wickets in 61 matches at an average of 21 on the other hand does prove that (Phagiso 60 matches, 109 wickets at avarage of 35) besides that he has an batting average of close to 20 which is not bad for a bowler.

I agree we do need a backup spinner, but Phangiso is definitely not better than Dane Piedt. Dane Piedt should be our 2nd spinner. he has played 20 FC matches less than Phagiso and took 50 more wickets, so please explain to me how his inclusion is justified above Piedt?
 
The way Nathan Lyon has bowled, considering it's against arguably the spin batting kings India - in Australia - is proof enough that any side with less than two specialist spinners is not serious about winning this World Cup. Particularly when both Johnson&Harris average 30+ (35 in Johnson's case). Even for the slower seamer who relies mostly on swing Shane Watson (55avg), it hasn't been that straightforward. All I'm saying is don't be surprised to see both Phangiso&Tahir in the same XI in one or two of the games.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/austr.../most_wickets_career.html?id=9323;type=series

Even NZ have Nathna McCullum&Dan Vettori. Please don't try and tell me they are similar to JP because that argument would only stand up if you're comparing him to Kane Williamson, who is probably a better spinner than all 3 of them. But of course Duminy is the weakest among those four.

Sorry but Phangiso stays! Justifiably!
 
Lament said:
I agree we do need a backup spinner, but Phangiso is definitely not better than Dane Piedt. Dane Piedt should be our 2nd spinner. he has played 20 FC matches less than Phagiso and took 50 more wickets, so please explain to me how his inclusion is justified above Piedt?
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Have you seen Phangiso bowl in ODIs? You want to take Piedt to the World Cup ahead of Phangiso? Not to mention he's never played a single ODI/T20&still very inexperienced? Are you serious or just pulling my leg?
 
Lament said:
I agree we do need a backup spinner, but Phangiso is definitely not better than Dane Piedt. Dane Piedt should be our 2nd spinner. he has played 20 FC matches less than Phagiso and took 50 more wickets, so please explain to me how his inclusion is justified above Piedt?
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And Piedt is 6 years younger too!!!
 
ZCFOutkast said:
Have you seen Phangiso bowl in ODIs? You want to take Piedt to the World Cup ahead of Phangiso? Not to mention he's never played a single ODI/T20&still very inexperienced? Are you serious or just pulling my leg?
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Yeah, why not?

In any event the 2nd spinner/backup spinner will be lucky to start more than 3 games in the entire campaign, whether it be Piedt or Phangiso...

EDIT: Tahir will be the preferred spinner, the likelihood of SA starting with 2 spinners is about 5%.
 
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ZCFOutkast said:
The way Nathan Lyon has bowled, considering it's against arguably the spin batting kings India - in Australia - is proof enough that any side with less than two specialist spinners is not serious about winning this World Cup. Particularly when both Johnson&Harris average 30+ (35 in Johnson's case). Even for the slower seamer who relies mostly on swing Shane Watson (55avg), it hasn't been that straightforward. All I'm saying is don't be surprised to see both Phangiso&Tahir in the same XI in one or two of the games.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/austr.../most_wickets_career.html?id=9323;type=series

Even NZ have Nathna McCullum&Dan Vettori. Please don't try and tell me they are similar to JP because that argument would only stand up if you're comparing him to Kane Williamson, who is probably a better spinner than all 3 of them. But of course Duminy is the weakest among those four.

Sorry but Phangiso stays! Justifiably!
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Not really Justifiably.
 
ZCFOutkast said:
Have you seen Phangiso bowl in ODIs? You want to take Piedt to the World Cup ahead of Phangiso? Not to mention he's never played a single ODI/T20&still very inexperienced? Are you serious or just pulling my leg?
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OOoooooo and the 12 ODI's Phangiso has makes him a much more experienced bowler huh?, when Piedt has actually played more FC games than Phangiso and took much more wickets.....Dont know who is pulling who's leg here, think you are talking out of your arse here mate, that or you are extremely blinded somehow.
 
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Lament said:
He is there because he is a brilliant bowler, he has lots of control over the ball and has only played 9 ODI's. Look at his first class record, he is a class bowler. Sorry if his 9 ODI's does not show that, his 232 wickets in 61 matches at an average of 21 on the other hand does prove that (Phagiso 60 matches, 109 wickets at avarage of 35) besides that he has an batting average of close to 20 which is not bad for a bowler.

I agree we do need a backup spinner, but Phangiso is definitely not better than Dane Piedt. Dane Piedt should be our 2nd spinner. he has played 20 FC matches less than Phagiso and took 50 more wickets, so please explain to me how his inclusion is justified above Piedt?
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Why are you quoting 4 day stats when this is about ODIs? When you look at the limited over records, Phangiso has played more games yes, however, similar average, better economy than Abbott. Phangiso is also more experienced than Piedt and they have similar avg and economy.

Abbott's selection is hard to justify by looking at stats, the decision was not based on performance but on a hunch by the selectors. Simple as that IMO
 
sox63 said:
Why are you quoting 4 day stats when this is about ODIs? When you look at the limited over records, Phangiso has played more games yes, however, similar average, better economy than Abbott. Phangiso is also more experienced than Piedt and they have similar avg and economy.

Abbott's selection is hard to justify by looking at stats, the decision was not based on performance but on a hunch by the selectors. Simple as that IMO
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Kyle Abbot has control over the ball, he is a good depth bowler, he is no Shaun Pollock, but not since Shaun Pollock have we had a bowler with the same control that he has. Plus with our already mediocre batting lineup, He is a good tail ender as well.
Personally i would have rather selected Lopsy/Morris or Mclaren.
Phangiso has played more List A games yes, but he is older and does not have the same variations of balls that Piedt possess. Phangiso is not a poor bowler, but looking at both of them bowl, i'll rather have Piedt in my team.
End of the day all of us thinks we could have chosen a better team, we will always criticise different players and why they where selected. End of the day we must just accept that the selectors and coach knows what they are doing and whats best for the team.
 
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Lament said:
End of the day all of us thinks we could have chosen a better team, we will always criticise different players and why they where selected. End of the day we must just accept that the selectors and coach knows what they are doing and whats best for the team.
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