The race card thread

[Myrrdin]

tbf just because wiki states it doesn't make it correct

But it is a fairly accurate gauge of how the world perceives a subject. Hence my "Please convince the rest of the world of this asap."

 

[Skeptik]

items of clothing have little to do with one's faith. Maybe you don't see the difference!

LOL
Tell that to the Muslim worker at Edcon who sued the company for refusing to let her wear her doekie (headscarf).

 

[Bageloo]

Is that not exactly what we should be crying for in this case anyway. I am sorry, killing an animal after it bellows (read in pain) as some approval from ancesters to "cleanse" someone who is a known criminal should be equally condemned as the killing of an innocent child and placing their organs inside a wall so people can "see" and "talk" about your business. I wonder how hard the child had to scream as proof of ancestral acceptance.

in African culture animals are regarded differently from humans. I know it is the same in your culture as well, hence you eat them animals but you don't eat fellow human beings. Slaughter = animals, murder = humans , I hope you get the difference now.

 

[icyrus]

items of clothing have little to do with one's faith. Maybe you don't see the difference!

You would be singing a different tune if this was a thread about how someone was complaining about having to wear a suit and tie to work instead of their traditional tribal clothes.

It seems you have a chip on your shoulder and a distorted world view.

 

[Bageloo]

LOL
Tell that to the Muslim worker at Edcon who sued the company for refusing to let her wear her doekie (headscarf).

that's a different issue all together. All I was saying is that the wearing of western clothing does not interefere with any tradition. As Africans we understand that we have been colonised and as a result we have had to adapt to the western lifestyle. Our faith and language are probably the only things left that define our identity. We cannot allow that to disappear as well. I am glad that the constitution protects these very important aspects of our lives.

 

[Myrrdin]

in African culture animals are regarded differently from humans. I know it is the same in your culture as well, hence you eat them animals but you don't eat fellow human beings. Slaughter = animals, murder = humans , I hope you get the difference now.

You refuse to see the similarities so let's discuss the event itself.
When the religion requires the sacrifice of an animal, it is offered to the ancestor with respect. It is killed quickly and with as little pain as possible.The meat is usually eaten by the participants of the sacrifice.

Sometimes an animal is sacrificed as part of a ritual cleansing. It is believed that such animals absorb the problems and negative vibrations of the person being cleansed. In such cases, the animal carcass is disposed of without being eaten.

So if they have eaten the carcass it means the ritual is useless which makes the act a purely violent act against a defenceless animal and therefore the SPCA should be involved. So how exactly did he dispose of the carcass? That would be interesting to know. If he and his quests did eat the cow afterwards it makes a mockery of your culture because you have a person who hides behind your culture to satisfy his own abhorrent tendancies.

 

[Myrrdin]

No comment Bageloo?

 

[RichardP]

No comment Bageloo?

He doesnt know how to answer questions - he only knows how to attack.
Its actually quite sad as I would really like to understand the African culture more... but hey! it might be the culture to 'Question dodge' too.

 

[Bageloo]

He doesnt know how to answer questions - he only knows how to attack.
Its actually quite sad as I would really like to understand the African culture more... but hey! it might be the culture to 'Question dodge' too.

Sarcasm does not work with me Richard. I thought you'd have realised that by now. I'm not online all the time so don't expect answers in realtime.

 

[Bageloo]

No comment Bageloo?

There is no (south) African ritual that I know of whereby the carcass is disposed.
The aim of ancesteral sacrifices is to bring ancestors together with the living to share in a feast of meat and traditional beer. I said it before, it is purely symbolic. Because they are dead they can neither eat nor drink. But they are believed to be there amongst the people in spirit. The family perfoms the slaughter away from non members of the family. Other people are invited for the eats and take no part in the actual ritual. If this was done right, the SPCA would not have seen the alleged cruelty. So in a way, I blame Yengeni for inviting/allowing the media and the SPCA to what is supposed to be a private and sacred ritual for his family. His behaviour was extravagant as usual which I also condemn. But one man's misdemeanor should not be reason for wiping out the whole tradition.

 

[ToxicBunny]

I will pipe up with my next 2c, It actually makes no difference whether it was "cultural" or not. He IS a convicted criminal and there is a good chance he broke the law while on parole and he needs to be punished for that.

Cultural excuses be damned, he is a member of the ruling party in this country, who enacted the laws and the constitution we currently enjoy, therefore if he contravenes them, he needs to be punished by the same system his constitutients are.

 

[Myrrdin]

There is no (south) African ritual that I know of whereby the carcass is disposed.

That would put you in a very unique position as the following will show. Or if I misread the original article that it was not a cleansing ritual.

A discussion about a cleansing ritual which does not involve a ritual killing but I doubt whether Tony was covered in milk.

Traditionally, Africans believe that ancestors look after their descendants, revealing themselves in dreams or through a sangoma, or prophet. In Mojela's church, the faithful believe that animal sacrifice such as the ritual killing of a cow or the slaughter of a goat, chicken or sheep can appease an angry ancestor and in other cases help promote healing or drive away evil spirits.

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070122/25339_South_African_'Spirit_Churches'_Unfazed_by_Continental_Decline.htm

Ebo ie animal sacrifice.

Afterwards, if the animal wasn't used to cleanse a person of illness or misfortune, it is eaten by all the participants. If, on the other hand, it was used for a cleansing, the animal is taken to the place requested by the orisha to complete the offering. These animals cannot be eaten as we would be eating the sickness or misfortune that was removed from that person.

http://tribes.tribe.net/africantraditionalreligions/thread/2b33934b-6ff0-4b58-a0f1-31c7e75674a6

The Forensics of Sacrifice: A Symbolic Analysis of Ritualistic Crime

Occult ideologies and ritualistic crime will be examined in the context of diverse theories of ritual murder to demonstrate that symbolic analysis is best understood as a "forensics of sacrifice," defined as pertaining to the legal proceedings or argumentation concerning ritual slaughter as a religious act.

http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap0902/sacrifice.htm

You have to subscribe to the journal to read it but believe me the quote is in there.

The animal victim is immolated at the end. After another series of invocations and blood is rubbed into the religious objects.

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=98939

So unless Mr Yengeni and his tradional healer made up a completely new ritual the disposal of the carcass after the cleansing ritual should be a given fact. I dont think that happened.



On the subject of "private and sacred ritual for his family" you can come to my church any sunday to observe my cultural rituals. I have nothing to hide.

 

[Telkomisaloser]

I agree with him fully ... it is selective racism ... nobody moans about the Spanish slaugtering and torturing bulls but just let the black man do it and suddenly they are backwards and cavemen.

Fact: People DO complain about it

http://www.prijatelji-zivotinja.hr/indexen.php?u=htmlen/060606.html

 

[RichardP]

I blame Yengeni for inviting/allowing the media and the SPCA to what is supposed to be a private and sacred ritual for his family. His behaviour was extravagant as usual which I also condemn.

If a tree falls in a forest, but no-one was there to hear it. Does it make a sound?
So what you have just said - Its OK to be cruel, as long as no-one tells on you?

I bite chicken heads off every full moon as my culture, in my private living space.. so I guess thats legal.

 

[BCO]

My 2 cents is that African ritual slaughter and ancestor worship is just as pathetically ridiculous as any other religion out there.

We as a species need to abandon all this superstitous crap.

 

[Skeptik]

that's a different issue all together. All I was saying is that the wearing of western clothing does not interefere with any tradition. As Africans we understand that we have been colonised and as a result we have had to adapt to the western lifestyle. Our faith and language are probably the only things left that define our identity. We cannot allow that to disappear as well. I am glad that the constitution protects these very important aspects of our lives.

Strange as it may sound, apartheid preserved your culture. You are being asked to adapt and join the 21st century. If you don't (in principle) then you will always be poor and aspire to have a bit of land and a mud hut.

 

[RichardP]

@Bageloo - Go read the SA constitution. People study it at university for years (its Actually a subject) and yes, it does protect Culture, but it DOES NOT protect barbaric acts in the NAME of culture and tradition. If it did protect culture, I would be a rastafarian any day of the week

 

[Darth Garth]

If you don't agree with a law, it was a white man's law. Is that what you are saying??

For a long time this country and it's institutions has been dominated by one population group who thought that their religion, culture, values and norms mattered only and bugger the majority.

But we are not in Europe although some of you still rather tragically seem to think so.

A change of mindset is required from you to realize that we live in an African country where we are the minority ... some of you on this forum still seem to think otherwise ... how amusing.

You don't have to like these rituals or practices but rather refrain from shoving your Eurocentric mindset down their throats ... I think they had enough of that for the last few centuries.

 

[RichardP]

For a long time this country and it's institutions has been dominated by one population group who thought that their religion, culture, values and norms mattered only and bugger the majority.

But we are not in Europe although some of you still rather tragically seem to think so.

A change of mindset is required from you to realize that we live in an African country where we are the minority ... some of you on this forum still seem to think otherwise ... how amusing.

You don't have to like these rituals or practices but rather refrain from shoving your Eurocentric mindset down their throats ... I think they had enough of that for the last few centuries.

yes, Africa is a tough place - but you want the TV, Fancy cars, Cell phones, big house in Sandton, Jobs .... AND still to keep a cultural identity? Thats wanting the best of both worlds.

You should know the typical African term then.. 'Being a Oreo' or 'Coconut' - Brown on the outside, White on the inside.

 

[Syndyre]

For a long time this country and it's institutions has been dominated by one population group who thought that their religion, culture, values and norms mattered only and bugger the majority.

But we are not in Europe although some of you still rather tragically seem to think so.

A change of mindset is required from you to realize that we live in an African country where we are the minority ... some of you on this forum still seem to think otherwise ... how amusing.

You don't have to like these rituals or practices but rather refrain from shoving your Eurocentric mindset down their throats ... I think they had enough of that for the last few centuries.

Do you not think there are certain universal rules/laws that should be applied everywhere? Fact is though the very fact that we're posting on here means we're living in a Western world, in modern cities etc. There are certain things that go along with that. I'm not trying to deny people the right to practice their culture, I just think that it should comply with certain basic regulations which are in fact law in this country. I'm also not sure a high density city or residential area is the best place to perform these rituals purely from a health/hygiene/practicality aspect. Maybe they should be confined more to rural areas which would be more traditional anyway?