The Renate Barnard - SAPS - Discrimination Case

What the apartheid government handed over was a country that could stands its own amongst the best in Europe. This gift alone should have been enough to draw the line, to maturely accept a no blame break with the past, unsavoury though it may be. History world-over is littered with injustices and unthinkable crime, any prolonged acts of retribution on a social group or individuals, particularly when it just cuts your own throat, will just amount to a hollow victory. It is long past the point where anyone should be paying for apartheid.
 
NoLimit said:
I think when you become a victim of the incompetence that has infiltrated and is now so prevalent in many of these professions (doctor, lawyer etc), where there is a specific responsibility to be discharged, where lives of vulnerable people are involved and their trust is unconditionally given, you will be singing a different tune.

BEE, AA, EE or any other social manipuation has no place in such professions.

A typical Police Station is now full off gormless individuals. They have no verbal skills and their understanding of even simple sentences is on par with a 5 year old. This is where dealing with the public, many perhaps in some distress, is a skill that cannot be compromised.

The few times I have been in to a Police Station, it has been a struggle. You speak to the guy behind the counter, he does not understand. You try again, some understanding but much still largely misunderstood. You simplify, one slow word at a time and add hand gestures. At last a modicum of success, and then he just gives you a form to fill in. This is all they have remembered from their training - to follow A, B and C - and even this they fail at. They cannot take the initiative or think on their feet. All essential attributes. Bottom line, unsuited to the job, untrainable and no ability to learn from experience.
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Nothing new in this respect. In 1980, I had my radio swiped from my car in Norwood. It took nearly two hours for the squeaky white constable to take down the half page statement that I gave them. After 15 minutes of battling to get him to write the first sentence, I offered to write it down, and made the excuse that I would have also had difficulty taking a statement in Afrikaans, as I was English.

At that point, he told me not to worry as he was English too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It would appear as if the SAPS has been employing incompetents for a long, long time....:rolleyes:
 
Smooth Criminal said:
You guys don't seem to get it. It's not about firing people and replacing them with people of colour. It's got nothing to do with the redistribution of wealth.
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Actually, this is where you are right and wrong. Originally this was the plan for BEE. But it failed big time. What it did was make rich black people get richer. It never really helped the black to empower themselves. It was flawed from the get go. The rich black people got benefits of BEE and exploited in the system. The government at admitted this is a failure and only was a get rich(er) scheme.

In short: BEE - make a few very rich.

So, the government is trying to address this, it's not called BBBEE. Which, on paper, sounds like a much better idea. (encourages development of skills)

Still, the fact it took over 15 years to see BEE was failing badly is terrible.
 
Asians

Smooth Criminal said:
How do you propose people gain the skills and experience if they aren't given the chance?
When the advent of democracy, the only people who had the skills and experience were white.
How is that ever going to happen when most of the experienced folks are white? Eventually the curve will flatten and everyone will be on a level playing field.
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Welllll all through "apartheid" I never noticed that stopping South Africans of Asian descent opening businesses --
and buying the latest new Merc every year --
OR sending their kids to Varsity or Tech.

They did this by dint of hard work ( and some "clever" business practices :D )
by an appreciation of what education can mean -- and scrapping EVERY penny together to make it happen.
and by their "Solidarity" -- mostly only employing other Asians.

SO please qualify -- "only whites"

Some OTHER people had the guts and know-how to -- take the chance -- and make the system work for THEM.

The "Curve" will never flatten -- the experience in Africa is that it tends to go downward.


MW
 
MidnightWizard said:
Welllll all through "apartheid" I never noticed that stopping South Africans of Asian descent opening businesses --
and buying the latest new Merc every year --
OR sending their kids to Varsity or Tech.

They did this by dint of hard work ( and some "clever" business practices :D )
by an appreciation of what education can mean -- and scrapping EVERY penny together to make it happen.
and by their "Solidarity" -- mostly only employing other Asians.

SO please qualify -- "only whites"

Some OTHER people had the guts and know-how to -- take the chance -- and make the system work for THEM.

The "Curve" will never flatten -- the experience in Africa is that it tends to go downward.
MW
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How many corporate employees were asian? How many public sector employees were asian?

By skills I mean real skills - not starting up some fast food joint or a hairdressing salon.

Anyway I'm done in this thread. I'm not defending the way that it's being implemented (because it can be abused), I'm saying that in principle it's a good framework.

Now all you pissed of klan members can go back to reminiscing about how good you had it during apartheid (not aimed at you MNW, but a lot of the others here). I'd personally rather live in a democratic sh*thole, than living the good life under apartheid knowing that 90% of the population is suffering. Some of us have a conscience.
 
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Lucky ???

NoLimit said:
I think when you become a victim of the incompetence that has infiltrated and is now so prevalent in many of these professions (doctor, lawyer etc), where there is a specific responsibility to be discharged, where lives of vulnerable people are involved and their trust is unconditionally given, you will be singing a different tune.
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I must be VERY lucky;)

Have an Indian Doctor
Coloured Dentist
Black Lecturer

and they are really all TOP CLASS

OH

and a very efficient SAPS

had a perp climbing over the fence in the middle of the night couple days ago -- phoned the local station and about fifteen minutes later there were THREE cop cars screaming around patrolling the fence.

OH

and very friendly and efficient Telkom dudes as well.

Have a pretty white vet though.

Guess I am going to have to retract all those other statements of mine :D
must be living on an island :D

MW
 
Insulting Criminal

Smooth Criminal said:
How many corporate employees were asian? How many public sector employees were asian?
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It was about making MONEY from their OWN businesses -- they did not need to be corporate employees
Smooth Criminal said:
By skills I mean real skills - not starting up some fast food joint or a hairdressing salon.
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Now you are being insulting -- Doctors , Lawyers , Engineers , Accountants are these not "real" skills or good enough for you ????
Smooth Criminal said:
Some of us have a conscience.
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Deep down we ALL do


MW
 
Smooth Criminal said:
How many corporate employees were asian? How many public sector employees were asian?

By skills I mean real skills - not starting up some fast food joint or a hairdressing salon.

Anyway I'm done in this thread. I'm not defending the way that it's being implemented (because it can be abused), I'm saying that in principle it's a good framework.

Now all you pissed of klan members can go back to reminiscing about how good you had it during apartheid (not aimed at you MNW, but a lot of the others here). I'd personally rather live in a democratic sh*thole, than living the good life under apartheid knowing that 90% of the population is suffering. Some of us have a conscience.
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if the "system" can be abused => system failure

will you use a program every time it gives you an "error" message?

conclusion: AA/BEE are NOT WORKING!
 
DreamKing said:
if the "system" can be abused => system failure

will you use a program every time it gives you an "error" message?

conclusion: AA/BEE are NOT WORKING!
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Most large corporates have implemented transformational policies which have bee quite successful in the last ten years. Im sure most would agree that the private sector has been booming in the last 15 years even with the inclusion of blacks in the workforce. The belief that blacks dont have the work ethic or competency is just a racist belief. I have seen many white, black, indians etc.develop over the years with the right training and skills development.

Hoever one only has to look at the government and its parastatals to see were EE and BEE has failed. The politicians approach was to replace white with black, and as one can see from service delivery perpective, they have failed in most aspects.

I do believe the framework can be improved on, however one cannot say there has been no progress in some areas.
 
DreamKing said:
if the "system" can be abused => system failure

will you use a program every time it gives you an "error" message?

conclusion: AA/BEE are NOT WORKING!
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Err...do you fix the error or do you chuck the whole program out the window?
 
DreamKing said:
if the "system" can be abused => system failure

will you use a program every time it gives you an "error" message?

conclusion: AA/BEE are NOT WORKING!
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I assume that your operating system of choice is always error-free. What a FAIL of an analogy.
 
Kosmik said:
If after 15 years it aint working, I kick its a$$ out.
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AA/BEE is not a complete fail. However, it's bound to fail in cases where it's not implemented properly. In practice, it should not lead to degraded delivery of service and should be a lot more than just tokensim.
 
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