The Renate Barnard - SAPS - Discrimination Case

[DreamKing]

BWAHAHAHAHAHA I think this must be the funniest post I have ever read on mybb.

A fine example of AA is what me is are thinkeng.

how it works?

Dude if you cannot even string some simple English grammar together I would hate to see how your programs run!

Dude if you did not pick that up as sarcasm then um... ag ... whats the point........ Go look up the word sarcasm in the dictionary if you not familiar with the term

no...... all because you quoted me "GRAMMAR" (2nd), remember?

I am fine with your "first post" ............

 

[NoLimit]

I found that in this forum, only idiots will say "your grammar is so poor" ......

As we are off topic already:

Like everything metaphysical the harmony between thought and reality is to be found in the grammar of the language. Ludwig Wittgenstein

 

[Devill]

It doesn't seem like she would deploy and manage people but rather more like a fancy title and a little bit of an increase in salary. If it was a post for Director or even Senior Superintendent then I would tend to agree with you.

So captains and suoerintendents have 100% the same Job?

For some reason that makes little to no sense.

Not only that but the fact that she could not get promoted to superint. kind of stops her from being promoted to Director or Senior Superint....... well dhu......

 

[Smooth Criminal]

the third one

welcome AA candidate.

Funny how all the 'AA candidates' appear to be more knowledgeable than you are.

If they get preference over people like you in the workplace then I'm all for it. They cannot possible be any less competent than you are.

 

[WilD_CaT]

Wow... off-topic.

@Smooth Criminal: Its funny how if a white guy generally has a negative response towards anything government does, people automatically accuse them of being racist. Even when their argument has merit - only people who are incapable of debating the points resort to racism and accusing people of being KKK members.

So thanks for that.

@Jungleboy

However you are missing the point that this is about promotion to Superintendent and is not like she was denied employment...she was already doing the job.

Its the principle you fool: If the promotion was different, to a more meaningful post with greater tangible affects on society would your opinion change?



Why don't people seem to understand the simplest things.



Another thing. There is still this thing with regards to "getting the foot in the door" or some such nonsense.

If you have 2 people within a company who have the same job. 1 "White", 1 lets say "non-white". There is a promotion up for grabs. Lets assume for the sake of argument only that the white guy has the better work record etc.

Option 1: White guy gets job. Black guy remains in his current job. White guy maybe has a better lifestyle can send his kids to a better school but the company (and hence society) benefits the most from him being employed...so rewards are justified. Black guy doesn't get the nifty big salary and his kids go to a government school.

Option 2: Black guy gets job. He gets the nice salary, his kids go to the better school. The white guy doesn't have that. His kids go to government schools! The company loses out on the most productive employee yet the have to fork out the big salary.


The point I was trying to make that regardless of race, gender, religeous background, heck even friggin SPECIES... the best person for the job should get it. That is NOT RACIST. How dare you come here and say otherwise from atop your self appointed high-horse.

My word. I advocate not choosing someone based on race and end up being accused of racism. This illustrates how pathetic you guys are....

 

[DreamKing]

Funny how all the 'AA candidates' appear to be more knowledgeable than you are.

If they get preference over people like you in the workplace then I'm all for it. They cannot possible be any less competent than you are.

:erm:


that is exactly why AA/BEE are not working .....

we have thousands of thousands people "believed" they are the most competent people around the world and suitable in the highest position ..... but in facts, their knowledge is just very little.

for those people, I will say "sorry, the world is not that small, it is more bigger than your imaginations."

always compare with the best, not compare with the worst.
If you still think that you are the best, then you should seek treatment asap ............... hope you will get well one day.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@Smooth Criminal: Its funny how if a white guy generally has a negative response towards anything government does, people automatically accuse them of being racist. Even when their argument has merit - only people who are incapable of debating the points resort to racism and accusing people of being KKK members.

No, what's funny is how you assume to know my race. And please don't attempt to classify me as someone incapable of debating. It's funny how you missed the posts when people were reminiscing over how good they had it during apartheid. But of course, that's not a racist in denial.

1. I stated that I would agree with the general sentiment had I not started reading about it.
2. I stated that it does still have flaws and may be abused if implemented incorrectly.
3. I stated that I'm not an expert on the subject, and my explanations are based on my own understanding after reading about subject. Which is a better understanding than those whose 'arguments of merit' are based on hearsay, their own warped understanding and what their own generalised deductions about what they read about in the news (oh he's black and rich, it MUST be BEE).

Now I'm sure most of that went right over your head, you saw the word KKK, and decided to jump straight to conclusions. We should all count ourselves fscking lucky that when the ANC came to power, they didn't resort to retaliating against white people in the same manner that black people were persecuted during apartheid. At least you're still afforded the opportunity to sit in your cozy room and post on the internet, while 80% of the population still has to suffer with the after effects of apartheid.

The point I was trying to make that regardless of race, gender, religeous background, heck even friggin SPECIES... the best person for the job should get it. That is NOT RACIST. How dare you come here and say otherwise from atop your self appointed high-horse.

Where did you see me disagree and say that in this particular case she shouldn't have got the job?

 

[WilD_CaT]

Now all you pissed of klan members can go back to reminiscing about how good you had it during apartheid (not aimed at you MNW, but a lot of the others here). I'd personally rather live in a democratic sh*thole, than living the good life under apartheid knowing that 90% of the population is suffering. Some of us have a conscience.

I didn't assume to know you race...but the same question can be leveled at you. "its funny how you assume you know mine..." ...moronic.

Listen I know my response was harsh, especially considering you aren't coming out and saying that BEE/AA is the holy grail etc. I'm more annoyed in general when discussing BEE/AA or any government policies, people who defend these things are incredibly quick to accuse others of being racist (Malema is the champion) if they disagree. If my criticisms seem leveled at you that was not my intention....

So I apoligise for going a bit overboard...but the Klan thing was bad dude. Most of those that have disagreed with BEE disagree with the principle of being "forced" (Policies not Law) to hire people based on race/gender and not merit.

Being grouped with Klan members...for disagreeing with a BEE...doesn't make any sense.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I didn't assume to know you race...but the same question can be leveled at you. "its funny how you assume you know mine..." ...moronic.

Listen I know my response was harsh, especially considering you aren't coming out and saying that BEE/AA is the holy grail etc. I'm more annoyed in general when discussing BEE/AA or any government policies, people who defend these things are incredibly quick to accuse others of being racist (Malema is the champion) if they disagree. If my criticisms seem leveled at you that was not my intention....

So I apoligise for going a bit overboard...but the Klan thing was bad dude. Most of those that have disagreed with BEE disagree with the principle of being "forced" (Policies not Law) to hire people based on race/gender and not merit.

Being grouped with Klan members...for disagreeing with a BEE...doesn't make any sense.

No offense taken, I'm quite thick skinned when it comes to comments made on the internet

I didn't single out anyone in particular, and certainly not you. I was referring to posts more along the lines of this one:

What the apartheid government handed over was a country that could stands its own amongst the best in Europe.

and off course those typically sly comments from the usual suspects in this section of the forum, that while aren't explicit, are always critical and quick to make accusations of reverse racism while concealing their own racist tendencies. White racists and black racists are two sides of the same coin IMO.

 

[WilD_CaT]

I've only had 3 hours sleep so I'm a little cranky

 

[TonyHawk]

of course those typically sly comments from the usual suspects in this section of the forum, that while aren't explicit, are always critical and quick to make accusations of reverse racism while concealing their own racist tendencies. White racists and black racists are two sides of the same coin IMO.

I agree with you... and its sad it will take us longer to heal this nation...
... but tell/show me an African leader who led a successful country... not from SA... cause thats ridiculous

Before you jump to conclusions... few countries have morally ruled well... but many successful none-the-less... white ruled or not

All I want is proof or history showing how well a black African has ruled... Africa or elsewhere... (I know there are nuts all over the world - all colours)
This is a genuine question... seeking a little education... I believe some of you can enlighten my ill judgement

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

But should positions be filled with under qualified individuals ? Also in some cases positions are left vacant because no "qualified" black person is available.

But I guess to some people getting the right colour in the job is more important than getting the job done

This is a common misconception, and mostly because of the way it's implemented. AA/EE was never intended to put unqualified people into positions(despite this being the way it as done in apartheid). It's meant to make sure that blacks who have skills and qualifications get jobs. Unfortunately, without this, whites who are still in high positions will give jobs to only their white friends(which is still happening anyway).....and before you jump up and down, the business world is still MOSTLY run by whites.

But as I said, it's not being implemented properly...and corruption is not helping either.

 

[WilD_CaT]

This is a common misconception, and mostly because of the way it's implemented. AA/EE was never intended to put unqualified people into positions(despite this being the way it as done in apartheid). It's meant to make sure that blacks who have skills and qualifications get jobs. Unfortunately, without this, whites who are still in high positions will give jobs to only their white friends(which is still happening anyway).....and before you jump up and down, the business world is still MOSTLY run by whites.

But as I said, it's not being implemented properly...and corruption is not helping either.

I agree the intention of BEE/AA is not immoral, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I know there are definately whites out there who will only hire other whites. But it really depends on the situation. If an owner of a small business is racist and will only hire whites, I don't think anything should prevent him from doing that. Its his loss. 80% of the country is black.

Thats a huge amount of business so if a white guy wants to limit his own options that is his baby.

The next guy won't limit his options and he will put the racist out of business.

In a country where the majority is the "previously disadvanted" limiting your options is insane. So if they want to do it let em. Other businesses will take advantage of that and will flourish and the racists..well...won't.

 

[WilD_CaT]

Wrong topic plz ignore

 

[Blah!Blah!]

I agree with you... and its sad it will take us longer to heal this nation...
... but tell/show me an African leader who led a successful country... not from SA... cause thats ridiculous
This is a genuine question... seeking a little education... I believe some of you can enlighten my ill judgement

The African continent is littered with failed states. Most of these states are economic backwaters, social apologies and political ruins. This landscape runs from the Casablanca to the Cape Town and from The Horn of Africa in the East to the Island of No Return in the West Atlantic. Most of these states true to type were the creatures of imperial convenience. To that end, they were meant to serve a purpose after which their ontological legitimacy or raison d' etre would then expire. At this expiration; the states, naturally not designed for self-propulsion; were condemned to tether on the brink, and finally implode upon the inglorious weight of their inherent contradictions. Colonialism designed and inspired the problems. But the decadence was then driven along by a horde of native pirates; trained in the fine art of piracy. These set of political actors were rogues personalities, weaned on selfishness. They were brilliant students of kleptocracy and political perversity. In about four decades they completely outclassed colonial perfidy and bested them in thievery. They did an inglorious job of mismanaging Africa, so much so that she is today the laughing stock of the world.

A state fails, when the government is raped by military kleptocrat or hijacked by democratic pretenders. Every state en route to failure possesses a castrated followership, congenitally programmed to pose postural unconcern, to their plight. The followership is emasculated into acquiescence, either through decades of military brutalization or through decades of civilian treachery. All in all, whatever lulls a people to the sleep of unconcern in relation to their own affairs, poses a danger for democratic survival in that clime. And any state where vigilance goes to sleep, power creeps to corrupt is holders absolutely. And once that happens, dictatorship and tyranny reigns, to gorge itself fat on the people, instead of catering for the people.

Another feature of a failed state in the most proximate potency is the presence of internal conflict, based on the consultation of the primordial forces. These primordial forces include the non-separation of religion and secular affairs and the elevation of nepotistic affinities over and above merit. This destroys merit and excellence; positioning the state to be hijacked by mediocrity and opportunism.

A failed state basks in full, unutilized potential wealth, she wallows in actual poverty. Corruption attends the lack, as the state feeds a growing army of unemployed elite, who seek political crumbs instead of meaningful preoccupations.

In every failed state, the government is dysfunctional unto meaningless to the citizenry, as a result of its inexcusable failure in its statutory functions. In this arena, the citizens provide themselves with the social services, and public utilities, that are by law, the province of the government. The citizens provide themselves with electric power, by buying and operating power generators in their private homes, with all the attendant health and fire hazards. The citizens drill private bore holes to provide themselves with potable water, which the government has woefully failed to provide. They even erect private postal arrangements to carry their letters because public utilities are at best epileptic and at worst dysfunctional. In fact, the government simply governs on television.

In a failed state equally, the security services are always in league with the forces of social retrogression. Robbers, swindlers and the police seem to be in an unholy alliance, designed to prey on the society. The human rights of the citizens are treated with utmost disdain in this environment, that life becomes cheaper than the price of peanuts.

Interesting article by Franklyne Ogbunwezeh mostly about nigeria but the parallels are frightning

 

[dlk001]

I agree the intention of BEE/AA is not immoral, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I know there are definately whites out there who will only hire other whites. But it really depends on the situation. If an owner of a small business is racist and will only hire whites, I don't think anything should prevent him from doing that. Its his loss. 80% of the country is black.

Thats a huge amount of business so if a white guy wants to limit his own options that is his baby.

The next guy won't limit his options and he will put the racist out of business.

In a country where the majority is the "previously disadvanted" limiting your options is insane. So if they want to do it let em. Other businesses will take advantage of that and will flourish and the racists..well...won't.

Well said!

 

[Frankie]

I agree the intention of BEE/AA is not immoral, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I know there are definately whites out there who will only hire other whites. But it really depends on the situation. If an owner of a small business is racist and will only hire whites, I don't think anything should prevent him from doing that. Its his loss. 80% of the country is black.

Thats a huge amount of business so if a white guy wants to limit his own options that is his baby.

The next guy won't limit his options and he will put the racist out of business.

In a country where the majority is the "previously disadvanted" limiting your options is insane. So if they want to do it let em. Other businesses will take advantage of that and will flourish and the racists..well...won't.

I established a service business and most, but not all, of my work was for Eksdom.
At one point Eksdom notified me of the cut-off date to produce proof that my business was BEE compliant or no further business. To become BEE compliant there were very few options, basically it came down to the need for me to take on a black person as an equal partner or employ a certain number of black people in positions higher than technical assistants or labourers - I wasn't prepared to do this in additional to it being impractical, and closed the business. That service is now provided to power companies abroad.
Eksdom had fully staffed AA compliant technical departments, but they were incapable or unwilling to do the work on hand, and it was done by service companies such as mine, but that soon stopped, and we all know what happened next - lack of maintenance and poor management lead to rolling black-outs.

Eksdom now take on engineers, whites mainly from the UK, on short term contracts as a work-around the AA rules, but employing and a qualified experienced white South African is out.

This scenario will remain unchanged while the ANC elite scumbags are comfortably lining their pockets.

If there was any honesty involved they'd have set a cut-off date for BEE and AA, but this wont happen because regardless of how long this lasts, they know that they just can't compete on an even playing field.

 

[NoLimit]

AA/BEE is artificial social manipulation against natural social order and development. It's akin to separate development as a political reaction to the reality of the day. In both cases conceptually there was merit but only within a set of boundaries, rendering it counter-productive when applied indiscriminately, as it only can be in the hands of the masses with no real understanding of the thin ground walked by the ideology. This is particularly the case in specialist and professional positions, where no prisoners can be taken, it has to be ruthlessly the best, and this is really for the greater good. The blacks have to just do it the hard way and slowly earn those positions even if it takes a generation or so.

 

[WilD_CaT]

I established a service business and most, but not all, of my work was for Eksdom.
At one point Eksdom notified me of the cut-off date to produce proof that my business was BEE compliant or no further business. To become BEE compliant there were very few options, basically it came down to the need for me to take on a black person as an equal partner or employ a certain number of black people in positions higher than technical assistants or labourers - I wasn't prepared to do this in additional to it being impractical, and closed the business. That service is now provided to power companies abroad.
Eksdom had fully staffed AA compliant technical departments, but they were incapable or unwilling to do the work on hand, and it was done by service companies such as mine, but that soon stopped, and we all know what happened next - lack of maintenance and poor management lead to rolling black-outs.

Eksdom now take on engineers, whites mainly from the UK, on short term contracts as a work-around the AA rules, but employing and a qualified experienced white South African is out.

This scenario will remain unchanged while the ANC elite scumbags are comfortably lining their pockets.

If there was any honesty involved they'd have set a cut-off date for BEE and AA, but this wont happen because regardless of how long this lasts, they know that they just can't compete on an even playing field.

You right - which is the point I was trying to make. If the labour market was "free" or "unregulated" in anyway there would be no BEE rules.

So you would still have the contract. If Eskom turned to racism and resorted to AA/BEE policies in the absence of any coercion...they would be stuffed as there would be no reason to hire whites from the UK instead of SA whites if the policy was a racist one.

If there are no policies in place and jobs are outsourced it is because it is cheaper. In which case, I'm sorry to say but then you are too expensive and society would benefit more from the cheaper UK dudes. To compete you need to lower your prices.


The fact that they have had to resort to hiring UK people is evidence that BEE/AA doesn't work. It is also evidence of human inginuity. That companies and people will ALWAYS find a way around the laws that prohibit them from doing business. E.G. labour brokers to get around hiring unionised employees and hassles associated with the unions.


Either the ANC just doesn't care, in which case screw em. Or they do care and the intentions of BEE/AA are good, but the actual affect of the policies are not understood or seen at all. They simply don't realise the harm they are doing.

It is also a fact that to stay in power they need support of the people. The uneducated masses...its difficult to expect them to understand that BEE/AA and the labour laws actually hurt them the most.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

The fact that they have had to resort to hiring UK people is evidence that BEE/AA doesn't work. It is also evidence of human inginuity. That companies and people will ALWAYS find a way around the laws that prohibit them from doing business. E.G. labour brokers to get around hiring unionised employees and hassles associated with the unions.

AFAIK the BEE codes have been gazetted, signed into law and will come into effect next year. Unfortunately for them, there is no way around it. If they do find a loophole, the fact that it would be law means that the law can be amended to fix the loopholes.

I'm not sure whether it's a good or bad thing, and whether the poor implementation issues will also be addressed. But what I can say is that in order to survive, companies will either have to change their way of doing business or move offshore if they don't.