The Renate Barnard - SAPS - Discrimination Case

Lol. I've already graduated.

Lucky you...thought affirmative action was keeping degrees like engineering and medicine to blacks only.

Isn't that what is meant by it being 'reverse apartheid'?

It was a piss take...but speaking of affirmative action, if it were the 'same as apartheid' then it would be actually designed to oppress the whites and prohibit them from good education, from certain jobs etc etc. It may not always work the way inetnded, and may need refining but as a concept it is designed to 'uplift' the blacks and give aspirations to others.

I am so tired of complaints about affirmative action. If there was totally no AA, and everything was supposedly on merit, then the reality is that the gap not only will never close, but will actually widen due to factors outside of ability and/or ambition etc.

Even in Australia, with a very small aboriginal population by %, the gap would take about 100 yrs to close.

cheers
 
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Lucky you...thought affirmative action was keeping degrees like engineering and medicine to blacks only.

Isn't that what is meant by it being 'reverse apartheid'?

It was a piss take...but speaking of affirmative action, if it were the 'same as apartheid' then it would be actually designed to oppress the whites and prohibit them from good education, from certain jobs etc etc. It may not always work the way inetnded, and may need refining but as a concept it is designed to 'uplift' the blacks and give aspirations to others.

I am so tired of complaints about affirmative action. If there was totally no AA, and everything was supposedly on merit, then the reality is that the gap not only will never close, but will actually widen due to factors outside of ability and/or ambition etc.

Even in Australia, with a very small aboriginal population by %, the gap would take about 100 yrs to close.

cheers

This thread is about someone that was complaining about AA and ultimately won in the SCA. So be tired about complaints but be sure that some people have legitimate reasons to complain about AA.
 
This thread is about someone that was complaining about AA and ultimately won in the SCA. So be tired about complaints but be sure that some people have legitimate reasons to complain about AA.

How is this case legitimate but others not.
 
Lucky you...thought affirmative action was keeping degrees like engineering and medicine to blacks only.

Isn't that what is meant by it being 'reverse apartheid'?

Ah so its the degree of racial discrimination that makes it acceptable.

It may not always work the way inetnded, and may need refining but as a concept it is designed to 'uplift' the blacks and give aspirations to others.

Like Apartheid was designed to 'uplift' and 'give aspirition' to the Afrikaaner. My word did it work for the majority of them. Positive dicrimination indeed.

I am so tired of complaints about affirmative action. If there was totally no AA, and everything was supposedly on merit, then the reality is that the gap not only will never close, but will actually widen due to factors outside of ability and/or ambition etc.

Depends on how you judge 'society'. For there to be a 'gap' you have primarily judge people by the colour of their skin. Much like a Nat.
 
Lucky you...thought affirmative action was keeping degrees like engineering and medicine to blacks only.

Isn't that what is meant by it being 'reverse apartheid'?

It was a piss take...but speaking of affirmative action, if it were the 'same as apartheid' then it would be actually designed to oppress the whites and prohibit them from good education, from certain jobs etc etc. It may not always work the way inetnded, and may need refining but as a concept it is designed to 'uplift' the blacks and give aspirations to others.

I am so tired of complaints about affirmative action. If there was totally no AA, and everything was supposedly on merit, then the reality is that the gap not only will never close, but will actually widen due to factors outside of ability and/or ambition etc.

Even in Australia, with a very small aboriginal population by %, the gap would take about 100 yrs to close.

cheers

Sure. I have aspirations. Aspirations to become an engineer. I had to finance my studies through a bank. Due to the way AA & BEE is implemented I cannot get a job in my field. I have been told to my face in 3 interviews at engineering companies, "You are white and thus are practically unemployable," in various forms; with the last interview when they said that I thanked them for their time got up, and left.

Now tell me, if you are denied a job time and time again because of your skin colour how are you going to feel? If you tell me you will feel nothing or take it as a positive experience I will call you a liar to your face. I have nothing but pure hatred towards AA. My parents didn't have the money to send me to university, that's why I had to take out a study loan for all of my years - how am I advantaged? I am currently repaying it at R5000 a month (half of my current salary). Am I looking for your empathy or sympathy? No. All I'm looking for is a god damn job in the field I studied for.

The government and industry cries all the time that there are a shortage of engineers yet there are a ton of engineering graduates each year sitting without jobs because of policies like these. I have a friend who graduated a few years ago with a total of 18 firsts (75%+) out of approx. 30 subjects with 5 of his subjects in 4th year being firsts and an overall aggregate of 72%. He couldn't pay for the studies out of his own pocket so he worked hard to obtain a university scholarship each year. After all of this he couldn't get a job in SA because of his skin colour. He eventually got a job (after a year of searching) in Australia.

Now compare the above story with a person who graduated with me last year (Black guy). Said person got 3 firsts in his entire career and an aggregate of 58%. He lands a bursary in his 2nd year, drove an E250 to university as his 3rd car. This guy now has a job in South Africa. Tell me how this is fair?
 
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I know a guy who graduated in engineering at University and walked into a R30k job. He was white.
I know another that also walked into a job, and likely gets paid R20k+.

Why? Networking. Don't blame AA/BEE for your lack of networking skill.
I myself struggled for months to get a job, because I'm incapable of networking and I had an honours degree that doesn't scream "hire him!" to an employer (theoretical physics). I earn about the same as you do. Not for a single moment do I blame AA or BEE because none of the jobs I applied for was rejected because of my race.
 
What sort of payout is this lady getting? I heard on the radio that the position she applied for no longer exists in the SAPS structure.
 
Race quotas banned

In a landmark affirmative action case, the Supreme Court of Appeal yesterday struck down the use of racial quotas in determining job appointments, finding that it was unfair to attempt to achieve employment equity through the rigid application of a numerical formula.

The case has far-reaching implications for the public service because several government departments use rigid demographics-based quotas to determine placements and promotions.

It also clarifies how the Employment Equity Act should be interpreted. The act has been fiercely debated in recent weeks, with the DA claiming that it enforces adherence to racial quotas.

The judgment points out that the act specifically prohibits quotas.

The case was brought by trade union Solidarity on behalf of police captain Renate Barnard, who was twice denied promotion because of her race, despite being the strongest candidate.

On both occasions she was recommended as the best candidate but was denied appointment by the national commissioner of police on the grounds that white women were over-represented.

Instead, the commissioner chose not to appoint anyone. On a third occasion when she applied for the job, the vacancy was withdrawn.

Barnard has fought the case for eight years, winning a judgment of unfair discrimination in the Labour Court in 2010. But the judg ment was overturned by the Labour Appeal Court two years later.

Yesterday's judgment by a full bench of the Supreme Court of Appeal was unanimous. The court awarded her costs and ordered the police to compensate her for loss of income.

The head of Solidarity's Centre for Fair Labour Practices said the union had 12 similar cases against the police.

Solidarity executive officer Dirk Hermann described the ruling as "a huge victory for Solidarity and Captain Barnard".

The court found that if an employers' employment equity targets were effectively quotas, unfair discrimination would result.

"Adopting that attitude would turn numerical targets into quotas, which are prohibited in terms of the Employment Equity Act," the judgment said.

Section 15 (3) of the Employment Equity Act of 1998 states that the equity measures that an employer must implement "include preferential treatment and numerical goals, but exclude quotas".

The act was amended last month but section 15(3) is unaltered.

A host of misconceptions has surrounded the discussion of the amendment, particularly that it introduces racial quotas.

The SCA judgment, written by Judge Mohammed Navsa, says that, though the act is an attempt to create a nonracial and balanced society, "it feels like a throwback to the grand apartheid design" and race classification.

Judge Navsa appealed to people on both sides of the divide to do their utmost to overcome past inequalities fairly.

"If we are to achieve success as a nation, each of us has to bear in mind that, wherever we are located, it will take a continuous and earnest commitment to forge a future that is colour-blind.

"This necessarily includes serious and sustained efforts . in order to build a cohesive and potentially glorious rainbow nation. For now, ironically, in order to redress past imbalances with affirmative action measures, race has to be taken into account.

"We should do so fairly and without losing focus and reminding ourselves that the ultimate objective is to ensure a fully inclusive society - one compliant with the constitutional project."

Finally common sense prevails.

I wonder what consequences that will have, whether or not university admissions will also be effected.
 
The main thrust of the SCA's argument is that the Employment Equity Act does not allow quotas. Also in this case, the appointment was of a critical nature that the SAPS must fill in order to achieve service delivery, something in which the ANC govt is severely lacking
 
CONCOURT RULES IN FAVOUR OF SAPS

The Constitutional Court on Tuesday granted the SA Police Service (SAPS) leave to appeal against a ruling in an affirmative action case involving former Lt-Col Renate Barnard.

"The following unanimous order is made... leave to appeal is granted," acting Chief Justice Dikgang Moseneke said.

The SAPS appealed against a Supreme Court of Appeal (SCA) decision that it had discriminated against Barnard on the basis of race.

Moseneke said the appeal against the SCA decision was upheld.

"The order of the Supreme Court of Appeal is set aside," he said.

The case goes back to 2005 when Barnard applied for the post of Lt-Col, which was superintendent according to the old rankings, for the first time.

She had twice applied unsuccessfully for promotion to superintendent within the National Evaluation Services, which deals with complaints by the public and public officials about police services.

Despite recommendations by an interview panel and her divisional commissioner, the national police commissioner did not appoint her to the position on the basis that racial representation at the level of superintendent would be negatively affected.

The position was advertised for a third time, but was withdrawn when Barnard reapplied for it.

Solidarity's lawsuit against the SAPS, on behalf of Barnard, was referred to the Labour Court. In February 2010 the court ruled in the trade union's favour.

The court ruled that Barnard be promoted retrospectively from July 27, 2006 to superintendent (Lt-Col according to the present ranks).

In May 2011, the SAPS was granted leave to appeal and in November 2012 the Labour Appeal Court held for the SAPS.

The SCA ruled in November last year in favour of Barnard and the union. The SAPS then applied for leave to appeal in the Constitutional Court. The court heard the matter in March and judgment was reserved at the time.

Barnard resigned from the police in June.

Moseneke said on Tuesday that the Labour Appeal Court's decision was confirmed.

"There is no order as to costs to the Labour Court, to the Labour Appeal Court, to the Supreme Court of Appeal, and to this court," he said.


Source : Sapa /aa/jk/th
Date : 02 Sep 2014 11:03
 
Just more racism disguised as AA...

screw the safety of citizens of SA...
 
BARNARD DISAPPOINTED BY CONCOURT RULING

Former Lt-Col Renate Barnard said on Tuesday she was disappointed that the Constitutional Court ruled in favour of the SA Police Service (SAPS) in her affirmative action case.

"I am never against affirmative action. I was against the way they implemented affirmative action," she told reporters in Johannesburg following the court's judgment.

"But I am very disappointed, especially for loyal officers in the SAPS that are serving there despite difficult circumstances."

She was disappointed the court did not consider "one of the best Constitutions in the world", according to which there would be no discrimination in South Africa.

Trade union Solidarity, who represented Barnard, echoed her disappointment.

"We did not expect this judgment. We can't believe that the Constitutional Court said today that this injustice against Renate Barnard is actually in line with the South African Constitution," Solidarity chief executive Dirk Hermann said.

"We believe that history will show that this judgment was wrong."

The court on Tuesday granted the SAPS leave to appeal against a ruling in the affirmative action case.

"The following unanimous order is made... leave to appeal is granted," acting Chief Justice Dikgang Moseneke said in his judgment.

Chief Justice Mogoeng Mogoeng was in court on Tuesday. However, the majority judgment was written by Moseneke in his acting capacity.

The SAPS appealed against a Supreme Court of Appeal (SCA) decision that it had discriminated against Barnard on the basis of race.

Moseneke said the appeal against the SCA decision was upheld.

"The order of the Supreme Court of Appeal is set aside," he said.

He said the SAPS employment equity plan was not challenged, and the court found the plan was lawfully and rationally implemented by the police commissioner.

Hermann said Solidarity would continue with several other affirmative action cases.

"In the next round that we will take, will be on behalf of the employees from correctional services in the Western Cape, we will definitely there attack the plan."

He said Solidarity was considering taking complaints about current affirmative action plans to international bodies.

Barnard's affirmative action case goes back to 2005 when she applied for the post of Lt-Col, which was superintendent according to the old rankings, for the first time.

She twice applied unsuccessfully for promotion to superintendent within the police's national evaluation services, which deals with complaints by the public and public officials about police services.

Despite recommendations by an interview panel and her divisional commissioner, the national police commissioner did not appoint her to the position on the basis that racial representation at the level of superintendent would be negatively affected.

The position was advertised for a third time, but was withdrawn when Barnard reapplied.

Solidarity's case against the SAPS, on behalf of Barnard, was referred to the Labour Court. In February 2010 the court ruled in the trade union's favour.

The court ruled Barnard be promoted retrospectively from July 27, 2006 to superintendent (Lt-Col according to the present ranks).

In May 2011, the SAPS was granted leave to appeal and in November 2012 the Labour Appeal Court held for the SAPS.

The SCA ruled in November last year in favour of Barnard and the union. The SAPS then applied for leave to appeal in the Constitutional Court. The court heard the matter in March and judgment was reserved at the time.

Barnard resigned from the police in June. She told reporters on Tuesday she was currently working in the private sector, doing forensic investigations.

Moseneke said on Tuesday that the Labour Appeal Court's decision was confirmed.

"There is no order as to costs to the Labour Court, to the Labour Appeal Court, to the Supreme Court of Appeal, and to this court," he said.


Source : Sapa /aa/jk/lp/th
Date : 02 Sep 2014 12:24
 
All these years in court and the legal team never challenged the legality of the Affirmative Action plan?? Seems like a bit of an own goal there IMO.
 
I admire Solidarity for taking the case in the first place, and by convinving the SCA. They are a good union, they just need to be more racially inclusive because many black people can benefit from them. However this case has destroyed many of their plans, especially in the Western Cape where the coloured community is subjected to national quotas. Correctional Services will be rejoicing over this, because they have many similar cases. This is also a blow to the DA which is against the use of national quotas in the WC. I'm very surprised by this decision, but it would have been very problematic had Solidarity won. In the end we have avoided a lot of unintended repurcussions which could have resulted.

I will definitely read the whole of this case, it's very interesting.
 
She was disappointed the court did not consider "one of the best Constitutions in the world", according to which there would be no discrimination in South Africa.
Only no discrimination as long as you are the right colour...
 
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