The soccer technology conundrum

It should really be quite easy to fit the ball with 6 identifiable tags, triangulate them and have a computer calculate its true position.
As to offside, every player also gets unique tags in his shoes and shoulders, as part of the jersey, and the same triangulation method is applied, witn real-time comparisons to other players at the time of ball delivery. From the ball trajectory the software should even be able to figure our whether an offside player would have an influence on the game. Offside player who could not possibly get the ball could be ignored.
We are measuring the distance from the earth to the moon within millimetres, we can determine our location from satellites approx. 20k km above earth to within metres, but we can't track the position of a ball and 22 players in a soccer stadium?
 
markings said:
It should really be quite easy to fit the ball with 6 identifiable tags, triangulate them and have a computer calculate its true position.
As to offside, every player also gets unique tags in his shoes and shoulders, as part of the jersey, and the same triangulation method is applied, witn real-time comparisons to other players at the time of ball delivery. From the ball trajectory the software should even be able to figure our whether an offside player would have an influence on the game. Offside player who could not possibly get the ball could be ignored.
We are measuring the distance from the earth to the moon within millimetres, we can determine our location from satellites approx. 20k km above earth to within metres, but we can't track the position of a ball and 22 players in a soccer stadium?
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1 - six is not enough. The whole ball has to cross the whole of the line in soccer. Not so easy to monitor unless the entire ball is made of some nanotechnology.
2 - the players would need sensors on their entire body for the offside issue as any part of their body can place them in an offside position, not just their shoes and shoulders.
3 - how would the software know which player was in possession, which player influenced play (try write code for that, I dare you) and then who had the last touch on the ball?
4 - your suggestion of an offside player not getting the ball being ignored isn't fair, as he could still influence play to some extent or he could appear to be in a position to influence play according to the software, but not do so. He could just be running back into an onside position without influencing play, which is perfectly legal in soccer terms.
5 - your suggestion would be unbelievably expensive to institute for every FIFA game. It's just not plausible imo...
 
Just came up with a solution that needs one sensor actually... If we place 1 sensor in the center and then say that sensor must be behind the goal by the radius of the ball, that would mean the whole ball has crossed the line... its quite simple actually.
 
phiber said:
Just came up with a solution that needs one sensor actually... If we place 1 sensor in the center and then say that sensor must be behind the goal by the radius of the ball, that would mean the whole ball has crossed the line... its quite simple actually.
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Not if the ball crosses the line at an angle (yes the sensor is in the middle of the ball but the line is now at an angle - what if Maicon's goal had hit the cross-bar?) Also, how would you monitor how far the ball is over the line without sensors all over the ball?
 
DJ... said:
Not if the ball crosses the line at an angle (yes the sensor is in the middle of the ball but the line is now at an angle - what if Maicon's goal had hit the cross-bar?) Also, how would you monitor how far the ball is over the line without sensors all over the ball?
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not sure what u mean by angle, center of a circle wont change... Just move the goal sensor the radius of a ball behind the line. since a ball is round, no matter what angle it comes in from, when the center of the ball crosses that line the ball is behind the line.
 
phiber said:
not sure what u mean by angle, center of a circle wont change... Just move the goal sensor the radius of a ball behind the line. since a ball is round, no matter what angle it comes in from, when the center of the ball crosses that line the ball is behind the line.
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But the centre of the ball is not when the measurement is/should be taken considering the entire ball must cross the entire line. Therefore even though the ball is round, at an angle, the ball must travel further to cross the whole line than it might if it crossed perpendicular. It's simple geometry.

Also, you didn't answer how one could determine exactly how far the ball has travelled after the central measurement is taken? The other issue is how does one suspend a measureing device into the ball without affecting its flight? It will need to relay information so will need a battery and wireless transmitter...
 
Another set of human eyes at each end of the field.... only use technology for post-match inquiries.
 
moggie said:
Another set of human eyes at each end of the field.... only use technology for post-match inquiries.
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Oh please no. That poor bloke whose sole job it is to watch for the 1 out of a hundred occasions when the ball may or may not cross the line will more than likely be fast asleep when it eventually happens, and he can still very easily be blindsided, unless he's behind the goal line in which case he's in a stupid position to make such a call, spur of the moment. I think if anything, this WC has shown that adding more humans into the mix won't eliminate errors, it will only compound them...
 
DJ... said:
Oh please no. That poor bloke whose sole job it is to watch for the 1 out of a hundred occasions when the ball may or may not cross the line will more than likely be fast asleep when it eventually happens, and he can still very easily be blindsided, unless he's behind the goal line in which case he's in a stupid position to make such a call, spur of the moment. I think if anything, this WC has shown that adding more humans into the mix won't eliminate errors, it will only compound them...
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These 2 asst refs also provide support for goalmouth incidents and adjudicating whether it is a corner-or goal kick. They also check for off-the-ball incidents that many refs cannot see if they are staying in touch with the ball in play.

http://www.uefa.com/uefa/footballfi...reeing/news/newsid=1489596.html?autoplay=true

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afd.../additionalassistanrefs-backgroundpaper_e.pdf
 
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DJ... said:
But the centre of the ball is not when the measurement is/should be taken considering the entire ball must cross the entire line. Therefore even though the ball is round, at an angle, the ball must travel further to cross the whole line than it might if it crossed perpendicular. It's simple geometry.

Also, you didn't answer how one could determine exactly how far the ball has travelled after the central measurement is taken? The other issue is how does one suspend a measureing device into the ball without affecting its flight? It will need to relay information so will need a battery and wireless transmitter...
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Ok here is what i am thinking in a bit more details. Put the sensor at the center. Remember now the center of the ball is an unchanged point. The radius (distance from center to circumference) of all soccer balls is fixed, thus we create a radius adjusted line the center needs to cross in the goal to point of line + radius of ball. Then iff (if and only if) the center of the ball crosses this radius adjusted line has the whole ball crossed the real line. This eliminates the angles, as the center of the ball is a point. I am pretty sure this will work to within a few mm's where the size of the sensor will cause for deviation.

From my understanding, the weight of a sensor is quite negligible, so we leave it to Adidas to figure out how to weight the ball, like they did Jabulani.
 
phiber said:
Ok here is what i am thinking in a bit more details. Put the sensor at the center. Remember now the center of the ball is an unchanged point. The radius (distance from center to circumference) of all soccer balls is fixed, thus we create a radius adjusted line the center needs to cross in the goal to point of line + radius of ball. Then iff (if and only if) the center of the ball crosses this radius adjusted line has the whole ball crossed the real line. This eliminates the angles, as the center of the ball is a point. I am pretty sure this will work to within a few mm's where the size of the sensor will cause for deviation.

From my understanding, the weight of a sensor is quite negligible, so we leave it to Adidas to figure out how to weight the ball, like they did Jabulani.
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This would require a goal-line sensor as well, across the length of the goal-line. Why not replace these with lasers and not worry about putting anything in the ball at all?
 
DJ... said:
This would require a goal-line sensor as well, across the length of the goal-line. Why not replace these with lasers and not worry about putting anything in the ball at all?
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What do u do when a player steps across a laser ?
 
phiber said:
What do u do when a player steps across a laser ?
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What do you do when a player steps across whatever contraption you'll need to pick up the sensor in the ball from the goal-line? Same issue effectively. But I have already posted about this, and which is why I suggested it be introduced in conjunction with a tv ref who doubles as a post-game citing commissioner...
 
DJ... said:
What do you do when a player steps across whatever contraption you'll need to pick up the sensor in the ball from the goal-line? Same issue effectively. But I have already posted about this, and which is why I suggested it be introduced in conjunction with a tv ref who doubles as a post-game citing commissioner...
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A sensor to detect another sensor work differently from lasers...so not the same issue actually. TV ref would mean a message needs to be communicated, takes time etc... this needs to be instant. can prob even construct a sensor bar above the goal facing downwards, looking for this sensor to cross it.
 
phiber said:
A sensor to detect another sensor work differently from lasers...so not the same issue actually. TV ref would mean a message needs to be communicated, takes time etc... this needs to be instant. can prob even construct a sensor bar above the goal facing downwards, looking for this sensor to cross it.
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And this sensor detector won't need any "line of sight" to be accurate? If so then I'm all for it, however I'm very sure there is no way to suspend an object in the dead centre of a ball without (and in a rather large way) changing the dynamics of ball flight, weight etc. When the ball is kicked, it compresses and when it curls it changes shape ever so slightly too - I see this being an engineering nightmare.

What happens when you kick the ball directly on one of the "arms" suspending the sensor in the ball? It would transfer the energy through the other arms holding the sensor in place instead of into the ball. Not sure how you could ever get passed this problem without levitating it inside the ball...
 
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Yea, no idea how they would put a sensor in the center of the bladder... could use a few in the walls to calculate the center....ball pros will have to figure that one out :P
 
This'll all be solved when we get holodecks and players are virtual ;)

But seriously, using tech in uniforms, balls and goals wouldn't be that hard. I imagine the uniforms the guys wear right now cost a bucket load. Sensors shouldn't add that much.

Then it becomes a simple maths problem.

- Ball sensor array crosses goal sensor array = goal
- Player boot sensor triggers proximity to ball sensor array = last touch player
- Player boot sensor + location of other players sensor + dynamic offsides line = offside call

Pretty simple after that to see all sorts of things like dives and so on. Then cite after the game. Embrace technology rather than making the whole idea of a world cup into a farce.
 
phiber said:
Completely agree, all you need is for a team to be piling on the pressure and the opposing captain to use one of his reviews for something silly and he can kill the momentum of the opposition. Citings after the game is something UEFA have been looking into for penalty, and have been handing out bans on already, they must start to get a bit more vigilant on it though.

If the players dont like it, dont play the game... If the fans dont like it, dont watch the game. Simple!!!
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No captain will do that. you wouldnt be able to refer to silly incidents like when deserve a corner or FK or some nonsense. It'll only be for That was an offside goal or that wasnt offside we deserve a gaol or the guy fouled me in the box I deserve a penalty things like that!
And when you say stop watching.. Simple! its not simple fans love to watch their team and the game. they want things done to protect the game and their team from ridiculous faults. Hey you probably want crime to slow down in this country... well I could say just leave! Simple! but its not so simple.
 
DJ... said:
1 - six is not enough. The whole ball has to cross the whole of the line in soccer. Not so easy to monitor unless the entire ball is made of some nanotechnology.
2 - the players would need sensors on their entire body for the offside issue as any part of their body can place them in an offside position, not just their shoes and shoulders.
3 - how would the software know which player was in possession, which player influenced play (try write code for that, I dare you) and then who had the last touch on the ball?
4 - your suggestion of an offside player not getting the ball being ignored isn't fair, as he could still influence play to some extent or he could appear to be in a position to influence play according to the software, but not do so. He could just be running back into an onside position without influencing play, which is perfectly legal in soccer terms.
5 - your suggestion would be unbelievably expensive to institute for every FIFA game. It's just not plausible imo...
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1 - One tag at N, S, E, W, Up, Down, should be enough to calculate the balls position, direction, and even spin. From previously measured ball characteristics this should enable us to calculate the trajectory too.
2 - OK, then have tags at the hip, knee (top of shinguard?) as well. One only needs sufficient tags to be able to extrapolate the actual positions.
3,4 - One could make use of the 2 assistants and possibly TMO. They have a trigger device which makes the program calculate the actual positions when he thinks that it could be offside. If a player is offside then the game comes to a stop anyway, so we should be able to live with a delay of 2 or 3 seconds while the TMO excludes players from the calculations.
5 - What kind of arguments is that for a company which makes how many millions profit every year and expects a country to spend how much, 35 billion Rand or so, every 4 years? It would indeed be overkill for every game, but for games at the highest national and international level, the use of telemetric technology should not even be a debating point. If one loves the game and is interested in it long-term survival, one would make every effort to have it refereed properly.

There have been so many glaring mistakes during this WC that the eventual winners achievement will be tainted, no matter how well they played. The players, the referees, the people around them, and the spectators deserve better.
 
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