The Syrian Conflict Thread

thestaggy

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Sure, I'm saying Hussein also lied, and had used chemical weapons extensively before so his word wasn't worth schit. Maybe he blocked them until he moved the weapons out of the country. Not like that's so massively implausible.

When the man - Rumsfeld - who told the world that Iraq had WMDs and used it as a reason for invasion admits that he was wrong, I highly doubt Iraq had them (at least to the extent they were accused of having them). All they found were badly coroded mustard and sarin gas munitions of pre-Gulf War (the first one) vintage, indicating that Iraq's chemical program had likely become an afterthought and fallen into disrepair and wasn't this menacing threat to global security. Further inspections of the 500-odd munitions indicate that they could no longer be utilised as intended due to their poor condition.

On discovery and investigation of former chemical production facilities a 2009 report stated;

The production facilities were "put out of commission" by airstrikes during the 1991 conflict, while U.N. personnel afterward secured the chemical munitions in the bunkers. [Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons spokesperson, Michael] Luhan stated at the time: "These are legacy weapons, remnants." He declined to discuss how many weapons were stored in the bunkers or what materials they contained. The weapons were not believed to be in a usable state.

Technically, yes, Iraq had WMDs. In reality, unless a terror group got their hands on them they had no military value and would have been more dangerous to the people attempting to use them than their intended targets.

Iraq 2.0 was a (costly) load of rubbish.

Afghanistan - Justified
Iraq 2.0 - Bollocks
Syria - Too late now, should have happened 2 years ago.
 
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Alan

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Tyrant had used WMD's, obstinately blocks inspectors then kicks them out breaking U.N resolutions in the process how irrational then to believe he had WMDs :rolleyes:

But from now on one must just take their word for it. Lets not stop there but include common criminals under probation. No more kicking down their doors and forcibly searching the premises for stockpiles of automatic weapons. Just ask him at the door if he says he doesn't have any accept his word and just pack up and leave...

The president of the United States takes to the airwaves to urgently persuade the nation to pause before doing something it has no desire to do in the first place.

Strange. And it gets stranger still. That “strike Syria, maybe” speech begins with a heart-rending account of children consigned to a terrible death by a monster dropping poison gas. It proceeds to explain why such behaviour must be punished. It culminates with the argument that the proper response — the most effective way to uphold fundamental norms, indeed human decency — is a flea bite: something “limited,” “targeted” or, as so memorably described by Secretary of State John Kerry, “unbelievably small.”

The mind reels, but there’s more. We must respond — but not yet. This “Munich moment” (Kerry again) demands first a pause to find accommodation with that very same toxin-wielding monster, by way of negotiations with his equally cynical, often shirtless, Kremlin patron bearing promises.

The promise is to rid Syria of its chemical weapons. The negotiations are open-ended. Not a word from President Obama about any deadline or ultimatum. And utter passivity: Kerry said hours earlier that he awaited the Russian proposal.

Why? The administration claims (preposterously, but no matter) that Obama has been working on this idea with Putin at previous meetings. Moreover, the idea was first publicly enunciated by Kerry, even though his own State Department immediately walked it back as a slip of the tongue.

Take at face value Obama’s claim of authorship. Then why isn’t he taking ownership? Why isn’t he calling it the “U.S. proposal” and defining it? Why not issue a U.S. plan containing the precise demands, detailed timeline and threat of action should these conditions fail to be met?

Putin doesn’t care one way or the other about chemical weapons. Nor about dead Syrian children. Nor about international norms, parchment treaties and the other niceties of the liberal imagination.

He cares about power and he cares about keeping Bashar al-Assad in power. Assad is the key link in the anti-Western Shiite crescent stretching from Tehran through Damascus and Beirut to the Mediterranean — on which sits Tartus, Russia’s only military base outside the former Soviet Union. This axis frontally challenges the pro-American Sunni Arab Middle East (Jordan, Yemen, the Gulf Arabs, even the North African states), already terrified at the imminent emergence of a nuclear Iran.

At which point the Iran axis and its Russian patron would achieve dominance over the moderate Arab states, allowing Russia to supplant America as regional hegemon for the first time since Egypt switched to our side in the Cold War in 1972.

The hinge of the entire Russian strategy is saving the Assad regime. That’s the very purpose of the “Russian proposal.” Imagine that some supposed arms-control protocol is worked out. The inspectors have to be vetted by Assad, protected by Assad, convoyed by Assad, directed by Assad to every destination. Negotiation, inspection, identification, accounting, transport and safety would require constant cooperation with the regime, and thus acknowledgment of its sovereignty and legitimacy.

So much for Obama’s repeated insistence that Assad must go. Indeed, Putin has openly demandedthat any negotiation be conditioned on a U.S. commitment to forswear the use of force against Assad. On Thursday, Assad repeated that demand, warning that without an American pledge not to attack and not to arm the rebels, his government would agree to nothing.

This would abolish the very possibility of America tilting the order of battle in a Syrian war that Assad is now winning thanks to Russian arms, Iranian advisers and Lebanese Hezbollah shock troops. Putin thus assures the survival of his Syrian client and the continued ascendancy of the anti-Western Iranian bloc.

And what does America get? Obama saves face.

Some deal.

As for the peace process, it has about zero chance of disarming Damascus. We’ve spent nine years disarming an infinitely smaller arsenal in Libya — in conditions of peace — and we’re still finding undeclared stockpiles.

Yet consider what’s happened over the last month. Assad uses poison gas on civilians and is branded, by the United States above all, a war criminal. Putin, covering for the war criminal, is exposed, isolated, courting pariah status.

And now? Assad, far from receiving punishment of any kind, goes from monster to peace partner. Putin bestrides the world stage, playing dealmaker. He’s welcomed by America as a constructive partner. Now a world statesman, he takes to the New York Times to blame American interventionist arrogance — a.k.a. “American exceptionalism” — for inducing small states to acquire WMDs in the first place.

And Obama gets to slink away from a Syrian debacle of his own making. Such are the fruits of a diplomacy of epic incompetence.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...6771d2-1bdf-11e3-a628-7e6dde8f889d_story.html
 

killadoob

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Yup we know it is about power and not about poor dead children that have been gassed. Putin though to his credit does not make such a fuss about it because he knows he honestly doesn't care where as the US play the sympathy card but in reality they also don't give a rats ass about the dead people.

Great game of chess at the moment.

Let us stop going back in time though, we know all parties involved have agendas. I just don't see a deal coming out of all this, i don't think the americans will believe the russians and same with the russians they won't believe america.

Anyways, awaiting the new exciting development.
 

thestaggy

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Tyrant had used WMD's, obstinately blocks inspectors then kicks them out breaking U.N resolutions in the process how irrational then to believe he had WMDs :rolleyes:

But from now on one must just take their word for it. Lets not stop there but include common criminals under probation. No more kicking down their doors and forcibly searching the premises for stockpiles of automatic weapons. Just ask him at the door if he says he doesn't have any accept his word and just pack up and leave...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...6771d2-1bdf-11e3-a628-7e6dde8f889d_story.html

Donald Rumsfeld:

‘Two weeks after the worst terrorist attack in our nation’s history, those of us in the Department of Defence were fully occupied,’ he wrote.

But he said the president was insistent even then that Mr Rumsfeld should come up with ‘creative’ options to topple Saddam.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eld-I-wrong-Iraqs-WMDs-new-autobiography.html

In response to his famous " 'We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad.' " quote, he now says "While I made a few misstatements – in particular the one mentioned above – they were not common and certainly not characteristic."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/08/donald-rumsfeld-book-misstatements-wmd

Curveball, the Iraqi defector that supplied the US with ''information'' on Iraq's WMDs;

The defector who convinced the White House that Iraq had a secret biological weapons programme has admitted for the first time that he lied about his story, then watched in shock as it was used to justify the war.

Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi, codenamed Curveball by German and American intelligence officials who dealt with his claims, has told the Guardian that he fabricated tales of mobile bioweapons trucks and clandestine factories in an attempt to bring down the Saddam Hussein regime, from which he had fled in 1995.

"Maybe I was right, maybe I was not right," he said. "They gave me this chance. I had the chance to fabricate something to topple the regime. I and my sons are proud of that and we are proud that we were the reason to give Iraq the margin of democracy.

Amazingly, the Germans were fed the same info by Curveball yet they were able to prove it as bogus and Curveball did not even try and argue the point.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/15/defector-admits-wmd-lies-iraq-war

Colin Powell;

"A failure will always be attached to me and my U.N. presentation," Powell writes in "It Worked For Me," a book that provides leadership advice. "I am mad mostly at myself for not having smelled the problem. My instincts failed me."

In his recently published book, Powell asserts "there would have been no war" in Iraq had then-President George W. Bush and his councilors understood that Hussein did not possess any functioning unconventional weapons. However, he lauded the fact that under Bush "we got rid of the horrific Hussein" government and toppled the Taliban regime in Afghanistan.

http://www.nti.org/gsn/article/powell-blames-himself-iraqi-wmd-speech-un/

But yeah, "kicking a door down" and destroying a country and causing the deaths of anywhere from 250,000 to a million people is justifiable because you are just being sure.

Should get back on topic though.
 
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killadoob

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I hear you staggy, spot on . Like i said you have a cult following of the US supporters who will believe anything they get told and justify blatant lies.

Alan i am not referring to you at all.
 

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There was a team of 100 inspectors in iraq who could find nothing. Look the lies in iraq are not maybe this or that, it's a fact they blatantly lied. You can go watch it on youtube bro. It's there. I don't think anyone questions whether they lied or not.

curveball, ever heard it? Mobile chemical trucks? LOL you must watch colin powells speech, shame he was in the dark though. He thought the info given to him was legit. Go read up on it, he even admits they lied.

You're blatantly lying again. You get told the facts, but then ignore anything anyone posts, for a few posts/days, then blatantly start spewing your pure BS again. WTFU already!

As pointed out earlier, you keep claiming you don't believe the media, but spew your pithy RT cr*p all over the place. WTFU!

Read and choke on it, liar. http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthr...ict-Thread?p=10783911&viewfull=1#post10783911 Keep reading to where you again duck out, as usual. http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthr...ict-Thread?p=10791679&viewfull=1#post10791679

As I have said before, the fact remains, saddam had WMD and used WMD, then later stated, that he planned to use nuclear WMD.
 
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Alan

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But yeah, "kicking a door down" and destroying a country and causing the deaths of anywhere from 250,000 to a million people is justifiable because you are just being sure.

Should get back on topic though.

and your alternative? Kill another 100 000+ innocent people primarily children through sanctions leaving Saddam in power to comment more atrocities against the Kurds and Shia wiping out a few thousand of them at time.

After all why bother with sanctions and inspections if the regimes can just brush them off and refuse to comply. What kind of message would that send to Assad now if next door Saddam had been giving the U.S and U.N the finger for 20 years?
 

LazyLion

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Syrian Regime Forces Behind Mass Killings: HRW

An international human rights group is accusing Syrian government forces and pro-regime militias of summary executions that left at least 248 people dead in two predominantly Sunni Muslim towns along the Mediterranean coast earlier this year.

Sunni Muslims dominate the armed revolt against President Bashar Assad, who hails from the country's Alawite minority, a Shiite offshoot.

Human Rights Watch said in a new report Friday that the killings took place on May 2 and 3. The New York-based group says the report was based on interviews with survivors, including some who saw or heard their relatives being killed.

The report comes as intense negotiations by top American and Russian diplomats are underway in Geneva over securing Assad's chemical arsenal implicated in the alleged chemical attack last month that killed hundreds.


Source : Sapa-AP /pk
Date : 13 Sep 2013 09:41
 

LazyLion

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Russia US resume high stakes Syria Talks

Russia and the US were Friday set to huddle for a second day of key talks on how to secure Syria's chemical weapons amid reports Damascus was scattering the stockpile to frustrate efforts to track the deadly arsenal.

Syria's key ally Russia has proposed that Damascus give up its chemical weapons in a bid to avoid threatened military strikes by the US, and on Thursday Washington and Moscow's top diplomats began poring over the logistics of the plan at a Geneva hotel.

Syrian President Bashar al-Assad confirmed for the first time on Thursday that Syria planned to relinquish its chemical arms, but demanded that the US first drop its threat of military action against his regime.

"When we see that the United States truly desires stability in our region and stops threatening and seeking to invade, as well as stops arms supplies to terrorists, then we can believe that we can follow through with the necessary processes," Assad told Russian television.

But Washington, which has threatened military strikes over an alleged chemical attack by Assad forces on a Damascus suburb, warned the regime that words alone were not enough.

"The words of the Syrian regime in our judgement are simply not enough," US Secretary of State John Kerry said.

Any deal to bring Syria's chemical weapons stockpile under international control "has to be credible. It has to be timely and implemented in a timely fashion," he said.

Hours before Kerry and his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov were to resume the high-stakes talks, reports emerged that a secret Syrian military unit has been scattering its cache of the deadly weapons around the country.

The unit had been given responsibility to shift the arsenal of poison gases and munitions around the country, the Wall Street Journal reported citing US and Middle Eastern officials.

The report will fuel the scepticism of critics who have questioned whether the Russian proposal is viable or whether Syria is sincere about wanting to cede control of the weapons.

The Russian proposal calls for a four-step process for the weapons handover, according to the Kommersant daily.

The plan calls for Damascus to join the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), declare the locations of its chemical arms, allow OPCW inspectors access and finally arrange for destruction of the arsenal.

Syria's opposition has denounced the proposal, warning it will only lead to more deaths in a conflict that has already claimed more than 110,000 lives since March 2011.

In a concrete move towards disarmament, Syria on Thursday filed documents at the United Nations seeking to join the international convention banning chemical weapons.

Damascus said it now considers itself a full member of the convention. While UN leader Ban Ki-moon welcomed the application, the United Nations would not immediately confirm it had been accepted.

Washington alleges that some 1,400 people died in a chemical attack on August 21 and was rallying support for a military response when the Russian proposal emerged.

UN inspectors will point the finger of blame at the Assad regime for the chemical weapons strike, the London Times reported Friday.

The inspectors' report, due to be published on Monday, will include a wealth of evidence that a chemical nerve agent was used in the attack, according to the paper's sources.

The United States and France, Washington's main backer of military strikes on Syria, have warned they will not allow the chemical weapons plan to become a delaying tactic in Syria's brutal war.

Pending the talks in Geneva, US President Barack Obama has put on hold plans for limited military strikes against the Syrian regime to disable its chemical weapons capability, but US officials have repeatedly stressed that the option still remains on the table.

Russia, which has blocked any attempt to sanction Syria through the United Nations, vigorously opposes military strikes.

Obama, who faced an uphill battle getting congressional approval for strikes on Syria, had said that the threat of military action had forced Damascus to budge and agree to discuss the Russian proposal.

But Assad on Thursday denied the threat of US strikes played a role in his decision to give up the chemical weapons stocks.

"Syria is handing over chemical weapons under international control because of Russia," Assad said. "US threats have not affected the decision."


Source : Sapa-AFP /pk
Date : 13 Sep 2013 09:13
 

thestaggy

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and your alternative? Kill another 100 000+ innocent people primarily children through sanctions leaving Saddam in power to comment more atrocities against the Kurds and Shia wiping out a few thousand of them at time.

After all why bother with sanctions and inspections if the regimes can just brush them off and refuse to comply. What kind of message would that send to Assad now if next door Saddam had been giving the U.S and U.N the finger for 20 years?

Arab Spring. When the people have had enough they will try and force change. Until such time the West needs to realise that they cannot decide what is good for everyone. Democracy is something the Arab World & Africa have a hard time grasping and forcing it clearly does not work.

If in 2011 the Iraqi people decided enough is enough with regards to Hussein and stood up against him, Western powers, as they done in Libya and Syria, could have then reacted IF the people called for assistance.

I see it differently to you. Hussein is still in power now;

1 - You have another potential ''ally'' against rising Iranian power instead of a country that is drifting towards Iran. Under Hussein, Iraq opposed Iran. Iraq, Turkey & Saudi Arabia would be a formidable trio against Iran in the region. Now you have a shattered country that breeds anti-West extremists and is becoming increasingly pro-Iran.
2 - Syria would be oh-so very different. The biggest influence in Syria from an Islamist perspective comes from the Iraqi Al Qaeda branch. Many of the foreign fighters enter through Iraq's porous borders. With Hussein in power, this does not happen. Also, Hussein hated Assad. Before his fall Syrian-Iraqi diplomatic relations had been non-existent for over 2 decades. It would be so much easier to isolate and topple Assad.

I also believe that the region would be a lot more stable if the US did not attack two Muslim countries in quick succession and I also believe Afghanistan would have been ''smoother'' if US, NATO and Coalition forces were not spread thin in two countries.
 

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Hours before Kerry and his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov were to resume the high-stakes talks, reports emerged that a secret Syrian military unit has been scattering its cache of the deadly weapons around the country.

The unit had been given responsibility to shift the arsenal of poison gases and munitions around the country, the Wall Street Journal reported citing US and Middle Eastern officials.

The report will fuel the scepticism of critics who have questioned whether the Russian proposal is viable or whether Syria is sincere about wanting to cede control of the weapons.

Too late to find all the chemical weapons now...Nice moves all you "useful idiots" of this planet.
 

Alan

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Arab Spring. When the people have had enough they will try and force change. Until such time the West needs to realise that they cannot decide what is good for everyone. Democracy is something the Arab World & Africa have a hard time grasping and forcing it clearly does not work.

If in 2011 the Iraqi people decided enough is enough with regards to Hussein and stood up against him, Western powers, as they done in Libya and Syria, could have then reacted IF the people called for assistance.

The Shia did try in 1991 and it was a disaster. What makes you think intervention wouldn't have resulted in civil war anyway. Worse than what happened with the occupation.

I see it differently to you. Hussein is still in power now;

1 - You have another potential ''ally'' against rising Iranian power instead of a country that is drifting towards Iran. Under Hussein, Iraq opposed Iran. Iraq, Turkey & Saudi Arabia would be a formidable trio against Iran in the region. Now you have a shattered country that breeds anti-West extremists and is becoming increasingly pro-Iran.
2 - Syria would be oh-so very different. The biggest influence in Syria from an Islamist perspective comes from the Iraqi Al Qaeda branch. Many of the foreign fighters enter through Iraq's porous borders. With Hussein in power, this does not happen. Also, Hussein hated Assad. Before his fall Syrian-Iraqi diplomatic relations had been non-existent for over 2 decades. It would be so much easier to isolate and topple Assad.

I also believe that the region would be a lot more stable if the US did not attack two Muslim countries in quick succession and I also believe Afghanistan would have been ''smoother'' if US, NATO and Coalition forces were not spread thin in two countries.

Firstly who's to say the Arab spring would have happened when it did. If not for the removal of Saddam? There's an interesting clip of Jon Stewart mocking Christopher Hitchens for the "neo con" theory that authoritarian regimes would fall like dominoes after toppling Saddam. Yet that's exactly what happened.

It's a stretch to say the least that Saddam would not have supported Assad's crushing of a popular rising. They might have disliked each other but they are both Baathist despots threatened by popular revolt. Secondly Assad facilitated Sunni extremists in their jihad in Iraq despite them on paper being natural enemies. Saddam would have done the same to Assad. In fact Saddam might well have made use of the world's distraction with Syria to indulge in further ethnic cleansing himself.

You still didn't answer what you would have done about sanctions and inspections with Iraq? Removed them or let Saddam just flout sanctions without punishment. After all what's the use if you don't enforce them.
 

OrbitalDawn

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Arab Spring.

They tried that and look where it got them.

I agree with you on pretty much everything else, though.

As I said before, though. Any kind of isolationism or non-intervention is effectively a vote of support for Assad.
 

thestaggy

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They tried that and look where it got them.

I agree with you on pretty much everything else, though.

As I said before, though. Any kind of isolationism or non-intervention is effectively a vote of support for Assad.

At the end of the day, you need to leave it up to the people to decide when they have had enough. You cannot go around saying ''We think government X is bad for you people, so, in your best interest here are a few missile strikes and a side-order of democracy''. Just does not work.

I advocated aggressively supporting the uprising from the beginning. It must be said though, the Assad regime was always going to be a difficult one to oust thanks to Iranian & Russian support. The same reason why Bahrain was left alone due to US support of the regime. Their (ruling regimes in Bahrain & Syria) friends carry big sticks. Now I fear it is too late as the country is doomed regardless. With Assad gone there will be strife. The power vacuum will pit the Syrian people against radicals. With Assad there, well, people still die.
 

OrbitalDawn

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At the end of the day, you need to leave it up to the people to decide when they have had enough. You cannot go around saying ''We think government X is bad for you people, so, in your best interest here are a few missile strikes and a side-order of democracy''. Just does not work.

They did decide that and tried to peacefully force Assad to reform and/or step down. Then he started butchering them. Same as in Libya, the people fomented the uprisings. So the question is, after these uprisings have already begun and the people begged for foreign help, why do people say we should just leave them to sort out their own problems?

They manifestly can't do it on their own, or without incurring massive civilian loss of life.

Look at Rwanda. That's what happens when you 'leave them to sort out their own problems'. I certainly hope that if that were to ever happen to the country I live in that foreigners would help and not just let people get massacred by the hundreds of thousands.

thestaggy said:
I advocated aggressively supporting the uprising from the beginning. It must be said though, the Assad regime was always going to be a difficult one to oust thanks to Iranian & Russian support. The same reason why Bahrain was left alone due to US support of the regime. Their (ruling regimes in Bahrain & Syria) friends carry big sticks. Now I fear it is too late as the country is doomed regardless. With Assad gone there will be strife. The power vacuum will pit the Syrian people against radicals. With Assad there, well, people still die.

Yes, agreed. It's a fsckup whichever way you look at it.
 

LazyLion

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Promised US Weapons not arriving: Syrian Rebel General

The Free Syria Army was still waiting for deliveries of weapons promised by the United States, the group's leader said Thursday.

General Salim Idriss told US public radio that the rebels had received humanitarian aid, including food and medical supplies, as well as military equipment such as bulletproof vests, night vision goggles, communications equipment and computers, but "no direct military support."

"We still (are) waiting to receive weapons and ammunition. And we told our friends in the United States, we hope that you will support us," Idriss told National Public Radio. He said the rebels' most urgent needs were anti-tank missiles and anti-aircraft missiles.

According to Idriss, the US said it would be very difficult to send anti-aircraft missiles. They promised a fuller answer after further consultation in Washington, he said.

US lawmakers have expressed concerns that the weapons could fall into the hands of jihadists.

The interview with Idriss contradicted a report Wednesday in the Washington Post, saying the CIA has begun delivering weapons to rebels in Syria. The shipments began arriving in the past two weeks, the newspaper said, adding that the arms shipments are limited to light weapons and other munitions that can be tracked.

The White House said in early June that it wished to support the rebels with weapons.


Source : Sapa-dpa /nsm
Date : 13 Sep 2013 04:45
 

LazyLion

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UN Inspectors could point to perpetrators of Attach

Diplomats said Thursday the report by U.N. chemical weapons inspectors expected next week could point to the perpetrators of an alleged chemical weapons attack even though they are only charged with determining whether deadly agents were used in Syria - not who was responsible.

Two diplomats said the inspectors collected many samples from the deadly suspected poison gas attack on Aug. 21, including soil, blood and urine, and interviewed doctors and witnesses.

They may also have collected remnants of the rockets or other weapons used in the attack which the Obama administration says killed 1,400 people, the diplomats said, speaking on condition of anonymity because discussions on the issue have been private.

Under the mandate for the U.N. team led by Swedish chemical weapons expert Ake Sellstrom, the inspectors are to determine whether or not chemical agents were used and if so which agent.

There is near certain belief in U.N. diplomatic circles that the deaths were caused by a chemical weapon, and the nerve agent sarin is the main suspect.

The diplomats believe Sellstrom's team can figure out what happened from what one called "the wealth of evidence" they collected.

A determination of the delivery system used in the attack, and the composition of the chemical agent, could point to the perpetrator, they said.

The U.S. and its allies are certain the Syrian government is behind the attack though President Bashar Assad's government and its closest ally, Russia, have blamed the rebels.

U.N. associate spokesman Farhan Haq has said the inspectors would establish a "fact-based narrative" of the Aug. 21 incident.

The foreign ministers of France and Luxembourg have said that the report of the inspectors is expected on Monday.

But Haq could not confirm that onThursday, adding "the secretary-general has not received the report so far."

Haq said the U.N. has made some efforts to speed up the analysis, noting that instead of two laboratories, the samples are being tested at four laboratories in Europe. The testing could have taken three to four weeks, but the secretary-general has been pressing for a speedier report.

One diplomat said Russia was putting heavy pressure on Sellstrom to restrict his findings, but whether he does so remains to be seen. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon could possibly go beyond the inspectors' findings and characterize who did it, the diplomat said.

If Sellstrom's report points to a perpetrator, there is certain to be demands for proof from the other side.

If the likely culprit is the Assad regime, diplomats say the Syrian government and Russia will almost certainly counter that the rebels have stolen or are manufacturing the equipment or material that the inspectors cite. Likewise, if the findings point to the rebels, their Western and Mideast supporters will almost certainly blame the government for fabricating the evidence.

Ban is expected to first report Sellstrom's findings to the U.N. Security Council, where the five veto-wielding permanent members have been discussing elements of a U.N. resolution that would demand that Syria's chemical weapons be put under international control and be dismantled, and condemn the Aug. 21 attack.

France's U.N. Ambassador Gerard Araud told reporters Thursday that the U.S., Britain and France have agreed on the basic elements of a draft resolution and discussed them with Russia and China at a meeting Wednesday but did not put a text on the table.


Source : Sapa-AP /ss
Date : 12 Sep 2013 22:40
 

thestaggy

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The Shia did try in 1991 and it was a disaster. What makes you think intervention wouldn't have resulted in civil war anyway. Worse than what happened with the occupation.

Those uprisings, which were successful in the beginning, received no outside support and ran out of steam.

In 2011, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, James F. Jeffrey, officially apologized to Iraqi politicians and southern tribal leaders for the U.S. inaction in 1991. Adel Abdul Mahdi, a top Iraqi Shia political leader, commented: "At the least, from what we are facing now, this would have been a much better solution than the solution of 2003. The role of Iraq’s people would have been fundamental, not like in 2003."

The above statement is telling. The support of the people you are trying to free is crucial.

Firstly who's to say the Arab spring would have happened when it did. If not for the removal of Saddam? There's an interesting clip of Jon Stewart mocking Christopher Hitchens for the "neo con" theory that authoritarian regimes would fall like dominoes after toppling Saddam. Yet that's exactly what happened.

It's a stretch to say the least that Saddam would not have supported Assad's crushing of a popular rising. They might have disliked each other but they are both Baathist despots threatened by popular revolt. Secondly Assad facilitated Sunni extremists in their jihad in Iraq despite them on paper being natural enemies. Saddam would have done the same to Assad. In fact Saddam might well have made use of the world's distraction with Syria to indulge in further ethnic cleansing himself.

I disagree. Toppling Hussein is not on the same line as the Tunisian uprisings that kicked off the Arab Spring.

I do agree that Hussein may have acted against Syria, but it would be controlled and easier to combat in the long-term as a Hussein-led Iraq was still a largely stable and uniform entity and not a mish-mash of foreign born radicals that have no easily traceable structures and bases of operation. Defeating Hussein & dismantling his army was easier than the on-going attempts to stop Al Qaeda and her affiliates.

You still didn't answer what you would have done about sanctions and inspections with Iraq? Removed them or let Saddam just flout sanctions without punishment. After all what's the use if you don't enforce them.

The sanctions and inspection worked. They destroyed Iraq's military capacity.

Scott Ritter, UN weapons inspector for UNSCOM (1991 - 1998);

There's no doubt Iraq hasn't fully complied with its disarmament obligations as set forth by the Security Council in its resolution. But on the other hand, since 1998 Iraq has been fundamentally disarmed: 90-95% of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capacity has been verifiably eliminated ... We have to remember that this missing 5-10% doesn't necessarily constitute a threat ... It constitutes bits and pieces of a weapons program which in its totality doesn't amount to much, but which is still prohibited ... We can't give Iraq a clean bill of health, therefore we can't close the book on their weapons of mass destruction. But simultaneously, we can't reasonably talk about Iraqi non-compliance as representing a de-facto retention of a prohibited capacity worthy of war. (page 28)

We eliminated the nuclear program, and for Iraq to have reconstituted it would require undertaking activities that would have been eminently detectable by intelligence services. (page 32)

If Iraq were producing [chemical] weapons today, we'd have proof, pure and simple. (page 37)

[A]s of December 1998 we had no evidence Iraq had retained biological weapons, nor that they were working on any. In fact, we had a lot of evidence to suggest Iraq was in compliance. (page 46)[16]

"When you ask the question, Does Iraq possess militarily viable biological or chemical weapons?" the answer is 'NO!' It is a resounding 'NO'. Can Iraq produce today chemical weapons on a meaningful scale? 'No!' Can Iraq produce biological weapons on a meaningful scale? 'No!' Ballistic missiles? 'No!' It is 'no' across the board. So from a qualitative standpoint, Iraq has been disarmed. Iraq today possesses no meaningful weapons of mass destruction capability." -- Scott Ritter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Ritter

All of what Ritter says corroborates the admissions by Powell and Rumsfed that WMD accusations were trumped up.

Hussein himself acknowledged how effective the sanctions were in corroding his military capacity.

Hussein noted that Iran's weapons capabilities had increased dramatically while Iraq's weapons "had been eliminated by the UN sanctions,"

So what would I have done? Maintained arms sanctions and sanctions on other materials of strategic military nature (uranium, etc) but lighten up on other areas to try and attempt a softer form of diplomacy to entice Hussein to not be such a hardliner.
 
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